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Post by sfsusan on Jul 28, 2020 11:07:38 GMT
I'm an American who spends a lot of time traveling in the UK, and have noticed that UK comedians seem to not be as pigeonholed as they are in the US. Comedians like Rob Brydon, Sandi Toksvig, Alan Davies and others work in various non-comedic performing arts... voiceovers, 'straight' acting roles, commercials, documentaries. In the US, I can only think of a handful that are able to do that. (The same also seems to be true for people I know as UK game show hosts, like Alexander Armstrong and Bradley Walsh.)
Is this a valid observation, or am I just more aware of UK comedians than US ones? And if others have noticed this, is there a reason?
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Post by sf on Jul 28, 2020 12:07:40 GMT
Well... Bill Murray, Steve Martin, Bette Midler, Whoopi Goldberg, Lily Tomlin, Robin Williams, Melissa McCarthy, Steve Carell..
I don't think it's that unusual for American comedians to move into dramatic roles, although I do agree performers get pigeonholed more in the US than they do here. My sense is that it's less of a leap here for comedians to move into things like documentaries, at least on mainstream networks - but that may partly just mean I haven't seen those programmes, because one of the big differences between TV in the US and TV here is that the big US networks mostly don't show documentaries in prime time, whereas BBC1 and ITV1 do.
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Post by sfsusan on Jul 28, 2020 12:34:10 GMT
Bill Murray, Steve Martin, Bette Midler, Whoopi Goldberg, Lily Tomlin, Robin Williams, Melissa McCarthy, Steve Carell. That's a great list, but most of those started their careers decades ago. (As evidenced by the fact that I recognize their names!) And many of them were comic actors in movies rather than mixing straight and comic roles (other than some one-offs). But even those names don't appear in as much 'everyday' work as the UK comics that I recognize. It is also possible that I'm not aware of today's crop of US stand-ups and how varied their careers are. I was also wondering if it might be the type of comedy they do, which your list would sort of back up. Few of those (as far as I know) used anger and extreme profanity in their stage acts. I know Robin Williams and Whoopi Goldberg used the f* word a lot in their acts, but it was never weaponized against anyone. And while I know Tracy Morgan played a version of himself in '30 Rock', his nightclub act was such that there was almost no crossover in the audience. (When he played at a club in San Francisco, management really made people aware that he was NOT the Tracy Jordan character they saw on the show.) I think the same can be seen with dramatic actors in the UK, too. They can move between tv, movies and stage without prejudice, where in the US, tv seems to be a launching pad for actors (like George Clooney), and the stage is their 'prestige' move after a successful movie career. The US seems more hung-up on categories of acting careers, where in the UK it seems acting is acting and there's no change in status when moving between them. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 28, 2020 12:52:18 GMT
Bill Murray, Steve Martin, Bette Midler, Whoopi Goldberg, Lily Tomlin, Robin Williams, Melissa McCarthy, Steve Carell. That's a great list, but most of those started their careers decades ago. (As evidenced by the fact that I recognize their names!) And many of them were comic actors in movies rather than mixing straight and comic roles (other than some one-offs). But even those names don't appear in as much 'everyday' work as the UK comics that I recognize. It is also possible that I'm not aware of today's crop of US stand-ups and how varied their careers are. I was also wondering if it might be the type of comedy they do, which your list would sort of back up. Few of those (as far as I know) used anger and extreme profanity in their stage acts. I know Robin Williams and Whoopi Goldberg used the f* word a lot in their acts, but it was never weaponized against anyone. And while I know Tracy Morgan played a version of himself in '30 Rock', his nightclub act was such that there was almost no crossover in the audience. (When he played at a club in San Francisco, management really made people aware that he was NOT the Tracy Jordan character they saw on the show.) I think the same can be seen with dramatic actors in the UK, too. They can move between tv, movies and stage without prejudice, where in the US, tv seems to be a launching pad for actors (like George Clooney), and the stage is their 'prestige' move after a successful movie career. The US seems more hung-up on categories of acting careers, where in the UK it seems acting is acting and there's no change in status when moving between them. What comedians were you thinking of? Trying to think of US comedians I know. I do like the look of Jon Oliver on the show Last Week Tonight. I think he is very funny |
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Post by Jon on Jul 28, 2020 13:15:59 GMT
I think the same can be seen with dramatic actors in the UK, too. They can move between tv, movies and stage without prejudice, where in the US, tv seems to be a launching pad for actors (like George Clooney), and the stage is their 'prestige' move after a successful movie career. The US seems more hung-up on categories of acting careers, where in the UK it seems acting is acting and there's no change in status when moving between them. I'm not sure that's really true anymore in the US. Nicole Kidman and Reese Witherspoon as an example both did Big Little Lies on HBO and both have since gone on to other TV projects such as The Undoing in the case of Nicole Kidman and Little Fires Everywhere in the case of Reese Witherspoon. |
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Post by Jan on Jul 28, 2020 13:24:19 GMT
The US seems more hung-up on categories of acting careers, where in the UK it seems acting is acting and there's no change in status when moving between them. What comedians were you thinking of? Trying to think of US comedians I know. I do like the look of Jon Oliver on the show Last Week Tonight. I think he is very funny John Oliver is English - I find that part of his lack of charm. There is a clear status hierarchy of acting in UK. There are plenty of examples to demonstrate this. A stage actor will give up any stage role (including sometimes walking out mid-run) if they are offered a film. TV comes between those. However, a role in a USA stage show, TV series, or film will outrank the UK equivalent - any UK actor will accept any role in a USA film no matter how small and demeaning - who can forget the distinguished stage actor Fiona Shaw in Super Mario Bros. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 28, 2020 14:31:35 GMT
What comedians were you thinking of? Trying to think of US comedians I know. I do like the look of Jon Oliver on the show Last Week Tonight. I think he is very funny John Oliver is English   |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 28, 2020 14:32:54 GMT
What comedians were you thinking of? Trying to think of US comedians I know. I do like the look of Jon Oliver on the show Last Week Tonight. I think he is very funny John Oliver is English - I find that part of his lack of charm.
Still no idea if you find Oliver funny or not |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2020 14:53:30 GMT
Some coemdians have done acting and played straight roles over the years. Also do we differ the comedian who tells jokes over a comedy actor or someone who may be more a satireist.
John Bishop has done some acting the panto skit he did a few years back with Sheridan Smith and Sam Spiro was very funny.
Bradley Walsh has developed into an all round entertainer maybe a poor man's Brucie.
Lenny Henry has done a large number of acclaimed straight roles on stage or screen. He was superb in Fences when I saw it a few years back.
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Post by Jon on Jul 28, 2020 15:03:02 GMT
Some coemdians have done acting and played straight roles over the years. Also do we differ the comedian who tells jokes over a comedy actor or someone who may be more a satireist. John Bishop has done some acting the panto skit he did a few years back with Sheridan Smith and Sam Spiro was very funny. Bradley Walsh has developed into an all round entertainer maybe a poor man's Brucie. Lenny Henry has done a large number of acclaimed straight roles on stage or screen. He was superb in Fences when I saw it a few years back. John Bishop has done a dramatic role in Jimmy McGovern's Accused and Jason Manford was in Ordinary Lies. Bradley was always an all round entertainer, the acting came much later. |
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Post by sf on Jul 28, 2020 15:15:12 GMT
That's a great list, but most of those started their careers decades ago. Not one of your initial parameters. And many of them were comic actors in movies rather than mixing straight and comic roles All of them have done notable work in straight dramatic roles. But even those names don't appear in as much 'everyday' work as the UK comics that I recognize. My mistake. I thought you were interested in a conversation, rather than merely in having your perceptions confirmed. |
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Post by TallPaul on Jul 28, 2020 16:37:33 GMT
Maybe, as is often still the case in the UK, it's not what you know, but who you know?
Those who commission programmes are of the same class and went to the same independent schools/top universities as those they commission.
There is a reason why Soho House is valued as high as $2 billion!
Of course it works the other way, too, with the aforementioned Jimmy McGovern, for example, or Derren Litten.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jul 28, 2020 16:54:18 GMT
That's a great list, but most of those started their careers decades ago. Not one of your initial parameters. And many of them were comic actors in movies rather than mixing straight and comic roles All of them have done notable work in straight dramatic roles. But even those names don't appear in as much 'everyday' work as the UK comics that I recognize. My mistake. I thought you were interested in a conversation, rather than merely in having your perceptions confirmed. Ouch sf that’s a bit sharp! Especially as you two seem to be related?  I suppose comedy is right at the sharpest end of performance, in that making people laugh is one of the most basic manipulations of an audiences emotions and it’s pretty much a pass/fail situation. So on that basis it’s not a far stretch that successful comedians have skills in other areas too. Having said that, I have never heard anything funny from the lips of Sandy Toksvig, Dawn French is a rubbish actress and Alan Davies couldn’t get arrested these days. And all those “alternative” socialist comedians who have totally sold out for the money... Ben Elton. I’m looking at you. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 28, 2020 17:05:54 GMT
Not one of your initial parameters. All of them have done notable work in straight dramatic roles. My mistake. I thought you were interested in a conversation, rather than merely in having your perceptions confirmed. Ouch sf that’s a bit sharp! Especially as you two seem to be related? I suppose comedy is right at the sharpest end of performance, in that making people laugh is one of the most basic manipulations of an audiences emotions and it’s pretty much a pass/fail situation. So on that basis it’s not a far stretch that successful comedians have skills in other areas too. Having said that, I have never heard anything funny from the lips of Sandy Toksvig, Dawn French is a rubbish actress and Alan Davies couldn’t get arrested these days. And all those “alternative” socialist comedians who have totally sold out for the money... Ben Elton. I’m looking at you. Another in the Sandi Toksvig fan club. One of lifes great raconteurs |
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Post by londonpostie on Jul 28, 2020 17:20:39 GMT
Is this a valid observation, or am I just more aware of UK comedians than US ones? And if others have noticed this, is there a reason? There's a very large pyramid of performers in the Uk, fed into by the thousands and thousands each year by Uni graduates and, more significantly, drama school graduates. A lot of good writers also start at uni, and then carry on as part of the wider arts-orientated eco system in London (or somewhere).
The people you are aware of are the very top of a very large, relentlessly re-energising pyramid.
The bar to get into drama school is merit-led and high in the first place. Three years of immersing yourself in the performing arts with first class teachers is pretty empowering. The UK does well generally in performing arts becasue of this backbone. Getting on stage is straight forward enough - friends, or friends of friends, or just rock up to an open mic. Toughest job of all they say (about stand up), but if you can make a living at that, with a stage background, it's a pretty decent skill set.
I mention it becasue US actors do talk about the UK drama school system.
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Post by kathryn on Jul 29, 2020 9:05:11 GMT
It is worth bearing in mind that the U.K. live comedy market is actually bigger and more lucrative than the US live comedy market. It’s the biggest live comedy market in the world, by ticket sales.
I recall Tim Minchin saying that he always had to explain that to Americans who wanted to know why he wasn’t bothered about ‘breaking America’ as a comedian - he was already having more success and earning more as a live comedian in the U.K. than successful live comedians in the US do.
For US comedians to make good money they need a film deal or a TV show (or, these days, a Netflix special). But there’s no real in-between stage - you are a live comedian and then you get signed for a special or to develop a sitcom.
One of the results of our live comedy market being so big is lots of opportunities - people who start out as actors, or musicians, or writers and are funny can end up moving into doing comedy nights because there’s an audience for it and they’ll get paid. And then if they’re good on the live comedy circuit there’s a whole load of panel shows who will try them out as a guest, and they might be asked to try their hands at writing the odd sketch, or presenting a TV show because they are a familiar face and known to be funny and engaging. Which of course means more people will buy tickets to see their live comedy show. And then they gradually sort of work their way back around to the thing they were really trying to do in the first place. Sometimes they turn out to be quite good at it (sometimes not!).
There’s a whole ecosystem at work.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 12:19:14 GMT
Socialist Ben Elton working with Tory supporting ALW always did seem strange. But Ben made a lot of money and did so early in his career, the BlackAdder royalties were large when they went on VHS sale before you factor in all his books, solo stuff. Plus Ben was mixing with the Footlights 1981 All Stars for many years, so there was a big social crossover there.
Ade Edmondson has had a nice dramatic acting career with good stage, TV and film roles in recent years. When I see him in some of these roles In often imagine the late great Rik Mayall doing them as one of his famous 5 minute cameos where he'd come in take over, create havoc and leave.
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Post by nick on Jul 29, 2020 16:50:04 GMT
...The same also seems to be true for people I know as UK game show hosts, like Alexander Armstrong and Bradley Walsh... You've asked an interesting question. With regards to game show hosts, so many UK gameshow hosts gravitate to it from elsewhere - possibly our 2 greatest quiz hosts - Bruce Forsythe (variety) and Bob Monkhouse (comedy and writing). Alexander Armstrong started in comedy for example. Does this happen in the US? I don't know much about US quizes. I can think of Groucho Marx doing the You Bet Your Life quiz show but I can't think of others. |
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Post by sfsusan on Jul 30, 2020 15:05:39 GMT
My initial question was on what I am observing today, so I didn't realize the past would come up. All of them have done notable work in straight dramatic roles. I don't deny that, but for the most part (as far as I recall), their straight dramatic roles have been outnumbered by their comedy roles. I don't think most people would think of Robin Williams or Whoopi Goldberg as dramatic actors. Although a think an argument could be made that their successful straight roles only reinforces that their comic fame has pigeonholed them. I'm not sure that defending my opinion is the same as refusing a conversation. |
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Post by sfsusan on Jul 30, 2020 15:08:24 GMT
I'm not sure that's really true anymore in the US. Nicole Kidman and Reese Witherspoon as an example both did Big Little Lies on HBO and both have since gone on to other TV projects such as The Undoing in the case of Nicole Kidman and Little Fires Everywhere in the case of Reese Witherspoon. This is a good point, as there is now 'prestige' tv and non-traditional channels (cable tv, streaming, etc.). I tend to forget about those. I wonder, too, if it's easier for an established movie actor to move into tv than vice versa (Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda would be two other examples). |
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Post by sfsusan on Jul 30, 2020 15:13:36 GMT
What comedians were you thinking of? Trying to think of US comedians I know. I do like the look of Jon Oliver on the show Last Week Tonight. I think he is very funny Jon Stewart tried for a movie career, I believe, but didn't do well. I sometimes like John Oliver, but he can be a bit OTT. That does make me realize that part of the problem could be that I would only recognize the ones that appear on late-night tv, and not those currently working the stand-up clubs. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 30, 2020 15:14:28 GMT
I'm not sure that's really true anymore in the US. Nicole Kidman and Reese Witherspoon as an example both did Big Little Lies on HBO and both have since gone on to other TV projects such as The Undoing in the case of Nicole Kidman and Little Fires Everywhere in the case of Reese Witherspoon. This is a good point, as there is now 'prestige' tv and non-traditional channels (cable tv, streaming, etc.). I tend to forget about those. I wonder, too, if it's easier for an established movie actor to move into tv than vice versa (Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda would be two other examples). TV budgets much bigger now. Netflix and HBO series have huge budgets |
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Post by sfsusan on Jul 30, 2020 15:15:10 GMT
There is a clear status hierarchy of acting in UK. There are plenty of examples to demonstrate this. A stage actor will give up any stage role (including sometimes walking out mid-run) if they are offered a film. TV comes between those. However, a role in a USA stage show, TV series, or film will outrank the UK equivalent - any UK actor will accept any role in a USA film no matter how small and demeaning - who can forget the distinguished stage actor Fiona Shaw in Super Mario Bros. Is this because of perceived status of a US production or is there a difference in pay? |
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Post by sfsusan on Jul 30, 2020 15:22:00 GMT
There's a very large pyramid of performers in the Uk, fed into by the thousands and thousands each year by Uni graduates and, more significantly, drama school graduates. A lot of good writers also start at uni, and then carry on as part of the wider arts-orientated eco system in London (or somewhere). This is interesting, as we don't have anything like that in the US. Our universities are (sadly) turning into job training for high-end careers (doctors, lawyers, scientists). We used to have a healthy system of trade schools, 2-year degrees, etc. for those not on the 'academic track' as it was called. Now, apparently, kids graduate in 5-6 years with massive debt and find themselves unable to work in their chosen field. This reminds me of the art-school background that so many of the 60s/70s rock musicians had. Would the comparison be fair? |
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Post by kathryn on Jul 30, 2020 15:22:32 GMT
My initial question was on what I am observing today, so I didn't realize the past would come up. All of them have done notable work in straight dramatic roles. I don't deny that, but for the most part (as far as I recall), their straight dramatic roles have been outnumbered by their comedy roles. I don't think most people would think of Robin Williams or Whoopi Goldberg as dramatic actors. Although a think an argument could be made that their successful straight roles only reinforces that their comic fame has pigeonholed them. I'm not sure that defending my opinion is the same as refusing a conversation. I think of Whoopi Goldberg as a dramatic actor more than a comic. I've seen far less of her stand-up comedy than her work in dramatic films. I suppose you could call the Sister Act films 'comedies'? |
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