7,534 posts
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Post by alece10 on Oct 2, 2021 11:46:40 GMT
Ive just returned from 10 days in Southern Spain and felt safer there than I do in London. Everyone, and I mean everyone following the guidelines and wearing masks when and where they should. Tourists following suit and it made for a very comfortable and enjoyable stay. Then going to the airport yesterday, 1 young lad on the coach was told to put his mask on by the guide, he said he didnt have one and when asked if he had an exemption letter he didnt have one. A fellow passenger gave him one and by the time he got to the check-in desk that one seemed to have disappeared. Was refused check-in until another passenger gave him one. He was still doing his passenger locator form on the coach journey with his friend and I heard him tell the friend to "just make up the details about the 2 day test, as no one checks anyway" Kind of says it all about many Brits and not taking the whole pandemic seriously.
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Post by londonpostie on Oct 2, 2021 12:24:14 GMT
If ONS data is correct around 10% of deaths from Covid in the UK now are people double vaxxed with no pre-existing. In London, that might be double the number of deaths in road accidents. With the vaccine available on demand everywhere in the country, cancer and heart disease are certainly far greater concerns.
For a lot of people I speak to the question has changed to something like 'how far do I go/does my family go to facilitate the tin foil brigade' i.e. the 90% of Covid deaths by choosing not to vaccinate. Everyone has their own answer to that.
I think many feel the issue is not with masks as much as with those who don't like science.
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Post by nick on Oct 2, 2021 15:23:36 GMT
If ONS data is correct around 10% of deaths from Covid in the UK now are people double vaxxed with no pre-existing. In London, that might be double the number of deaths in road accidents. With the vaccine available on demand everywhere in the country, cancer and heart disease are certainly far greater concerns. For a lot of people I speak to the question has changed to something like 'how far do I go/does my family go to facilitate the tin foil brigade' i.e. the 90% of Covid deaths by choosing not to vaccinate. Everyone has their own answer to that. I think many feel the issue is not with masks as much as with those who don't like science. I agree to an extent except it's not just the 'tin foil brigade' it's also the immunosuppressed. But we must be close to comparing Covid to flu in terms of danger.
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2,349 posts
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Post by zahidf on Oct 2, 2021 15:59:30 GMT
Cases down on a 7 day basis today. Back in decline. Considering we don't have any mitigations at present, that's good news...
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Post by sfsusan on Oct 2, 2021 20:25:26 GMT
I agree to an extent except it's not just the 'tin foil brigade' it's also the immunosuppressed. I suspect that without the 'tin foil brigade', the immunosuppressed alone would not be enough to prevent the UK (or any other country) from achieving herd immunity or foiling rampant mutations (which will fuel future waves where the current vaccinations might not be as effective, thus dumping everybody back in the soup).
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4,596 posts
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Post by Someone in a tree on Oct 4, 2021 15:19:14 GMT
Today was my booster jab. Sore arm.
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6,333 posts
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Post by Jon on Oct 4, 2021 20:07:40 GMT
I'm surprised the Government hasn't done a deal with Merck/MSD for Molnupiravir, it's something that could be deployed very quickly to pharmacies.
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Post by eua78 on Oct 4, 2021 20:13:53 GMT
I'm surprised the Government hasn't done a deal with Merck/MSD for Molnupiravir, it's something that could be deployed very quickly to pharmacies. I’m sure they will once it’s been looked at by MHRA, it’ll probs take a good few months though.
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6,333 posts
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Post by Jon on Oct 4, 2021 20:49:51 GMT
I’m sure they will once it’s been looked at by MHRA, it’ll probs take a good few months though. I reckon it'll be sooner than a few months when it's widely available, maybe December or January so that it's on hand for Winter.
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Post by eua78 on Oct 4, 2021 20:53:35 GMT
I’m sure they will once it’s been looked at by MHRA, it’ll probs take a good few months though. I reckon it'll be sooner than a few months when it's widely available, maybe December or January so that it's on hand for Winter. We can hope 🙌
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 4, 2021 21:27:08 GMT
The rise of permanent working from home as a result of Covid will end up being something that is a symbol of the culture war. A lot of people love it while a lot of people want it either taxed for everyone and/or banned in the public sector. For a lot of people it’s symbol of class differences as more working class jobs cannot in any circumstances be done from home than middle class ones.
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Post by talkingheads on Oct 5, 2021 5:28:52 GMT
The rise of permanent working from home as a result of Covid will end up being something that is a symbol of the culture war. A lot of people love it while a lot of people want it either taxed for everyone and/or banned in the public sector. For a lot of people it’s symbol of class differences as more working class jobs cannot in any circumstances be done from home than middle class ones. Well banning is simply not going to happen. If my boss makes me go back to the office, I'll simply quit and get a job where they continue to let staff work from home. There is not one single justification for office working (yes I know some people like it for social reasons, I am not one of those people!) I have been doing more work in the same hours because I'm more focused and saving hundreds if not thousands from no commute, not to mention eating much healthier where there's no tenptation to buy lunch.
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Post by nick on Oct 5, 2021 6:48:24 GMT
The rise of permanent working from home as a result of Covid will end up being something that is a symbol of the culture war. A lot of people love it while a lot of people want it either taxed for everyone and/or banned in the public sector. For a lot of people it’s symbol of class differences as more working class jobs cannot in any circumstances be done from home than middle class ones. I think you are right but I think the rise of home working in inevitable. The world of work is going through big changes - the rise of automation is taking away low skilled jobs (and beginning to get those needing more skills). And the internet and computing means home working is so much easier. If anyone wants a horror story about how it may end then read EM Forster's short story, The Machine Stops.
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 5, 2021 8:52:48 GMT
The rise of permanent working from home as a result of Covid will end up being something that is a symbol of the culture war. A lot of people love it while a lot of people want it either taxed for everyone and/or banned in the public sector. For a lot of people it’s symbol of class differences as more working class jobs cannot in any circumstances be done from home than middle class ones. Well banning is simply not going to happen. If my boss makes me go back to the office, I'll simply quit and get a job where they continue to let staff work from home. There is not one single justification for office working (yes I know some people like it for social reasons, I am not one of those people!) I have been doing more work in the same hours because I'm more focused and saving hundreds if not thousands from no commute, not to mention eating much healthier where there's no tenptation to buy lunch. What if it’s legally impossible to work from home. Or not financially viable for any company to allow it due to the high tax penalties. Half the country would support measures like this.
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Post by nick on Oct 5, 2021 9:02:13 GMT
Well banning is simply not going to happen. If my boss makes me go back to the office, I'll simply quit and get a job where they continue to let staff work from home. There is not one single justification for office working (yes I know some people like it for social reasons, I am not one of those people!) I have been doing more work in the same hours because I'm more focused and saving hundreds if not thousands from no commute, not to mention eating much healthier where there's no tenptation to buy lunch. What if it’s legally impossible to work from home. Or not financially viable for any company to allow it due to the high tax penalties. Half the country would support measures like this. Not sniping - seriously interested. What would be legally impossible? I can see difficult and possibly a few areas that would be impossible but don’t see a huge problem. And what are the high tax problems?
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4,799 posts
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Post by The Matthew on Oct 5, 2021 9:16:44 GMT
The rise of permanent working from home as a result of Covid will end up being something that is a symbol of the culture war. A lot of people love it while a lot of people want it either taxed for everyone and/or banned in the public sector. For a lot of people it’s symbol of class differences as more working class jobs cannot in any circumstances be done from home than middle class ones. Different jobs are ... different. They have different requirements and offer different benefits. Complaining because some people can work from home and others can't is like complaining that some people can work outdoors and some can't, or some jobs involve travel and some don't, or some jobs require variable shifts and some don't. Some jobs come with a car, some come with health insurance, some come with low-cost mortgages, some come with share options, some come with discounts on company products. Others don't.
It's not even as if working from home is anything new. My mother worked from home in the late 1970s. Since the rise of the first portable computers and home computers around thirty years ago home working has been available to an increasing number of office workers. The only thing that has been holding it back is management inertia.
At one time centralised offices weren't a thing. Then they became a thing. Now they're on their way to becoming not a thing again. The idea of people commuting to central locations happened because the needs of business moved ahead of the technology available. Now technology has caught up. We don't need the imposition of the old way of doing things any more.
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2,206 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 5, 2021 9:57:20 GMT
The rise of permanent working from home as a result of Covid will end up being something that is a symbol of the culture war. A lot of people love it while a lot of people want it either taxed for everyone and/or banned in the public sector. For a lot of people it’s symbol of class differences as more working class jobs cannot in any circumstances be done from home than middle class ones. Different jobs are ... different. They have different requirements and offer different benefits. Complaining because some people can work from home and others can't is like complaining that some people can work outdoors and some can't, or some jobs involve travel and some don't, or some jobs require variable shifts and some don't. Some jobs come with a car, some come with health insurance, some come with low-cost mortgages, some come with share options, some come with discounts on company products. Others don't.
It's not even as if working from home is anything new. My mother worked from home in the late 1970s. Since the rise of the first portable computers and home computers around thirty years ago home working has been available to an increasing number of office workers. The only thing that has been holding it back is management inertia.
At one time centralised offices weren't a thing. Then they became a thing. Now they're on their way to becoming not a thing again. The idea of people commuting to central locations happened because the needs of business moved ahead of the technology available. Now technology has caught up. We don't need the imposition of the old way of doing things any more.
Don't need people in the office and they can be based anywhere companies will soon realise they can move those jobs east to cheaper workforces.
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 5, 2021 10:01:44 GMT
What if it’s legally impossible to work from home. Or not financially viable for any company to allow it due to the high tax penalties. Half the country would support measures like this. Not sniping - seriously interested. What would be legally impossible? I can see difficult and possibly a few areas that would be impossible but don’t see a huge problem. And what are the high tax problems? That companies would have to pay a higher tax rate if they employ people to work from home.
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Post by londonpostie on Oct 5, 2021 10:03:51 GMT
I wonder if history will look at this time as 'the great adjustment'. Aside from Covid and the return of Visa-based im/migration, we have full-on revolutions in retail, distribution and office-based work. Even the elderly have to completely re-think their lives. The Green revolution is actually here, at least in transport and energy.
Literally millions are adjusting in multiple ways, entire industries re-shaping. Hell of a thing.
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 5, 2021 10:20:10 GMT
I wonder if history will look at this time as 'the great adjustment'. Aside from Covid and the return of Visa-based im/migration, we have full-on revolutions in retail, distribution and office-based work. Even the elderly have to completely re-think their lives. The Green revolution is actually here, at least in transport and energy. Literally millions are adjusting in multiple ways, entire industries re-shaping. Hell of a thing. And it will be controversial. The green revolution is deeply unpopular in many parts of the country for example. And a lot of elderly people are deeply stressed by a lot of the technological changes recently. Those who have Adapted slowly as things were introduced are coping better than those who never adapted and now having to catch up.
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6,333 posts
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Post by Jon on Oct 5, 2021 10:28:19 GMT
Permanent working from home five days a week I don't see happening but a hybrid approach is likely to emerge. WFH has its perks but it can be isolating for many and also not everyone's home is suitable for WFH.
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356 posts
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Post by lichtie on Oct 5, 2021 10:30:20 GMT
Not sniping - seriously interested. What would be legally impossible? I can see difficult and possibly a few areas that would be impossible but don’t see a huge problem. And what are the high tax problems? That companies would have to pay a higher tax rate if they employ people to work from home. No government is going to mandate that. They might remove the tax breaks you can have if you use your home as an office, but even that won't happen under a Tory government as a large fraction of their contributing supporters will be in that category. Different jobs have always had different workplaces. All that's happening is a change in where some of those workplaces are. If a government were serious about moving against a worldwide trend they would be better off with carrots (tax breaks for travelling to work for everyone for example). That's not going to happen any time soon either. The only people with influence really calling for something to be done are the property owners who are about to see values diminish. The big companies by and large can already see the advantage of having a much smaller property footprint for their office staff with people coming into the office on a rota system. The only reason the government ever sticks their oar in on this one is because Johnston wants to declare the war against covid won, and normality regained, and to shut the even dimmer members of the commentariat in the press up.
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2,206 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 5, 2021 10:35:39 GMT
Permanent working from home five days a week I don't see happening but a hybrid approach is likely to emerge. WFH has its perks but it can be isolating for many and also not everyone's home is suitable for WFH. We're home working permanently now. But I agree a hybrid will be more normal if a significant change happens
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 5, 2021 10:43:34 GMT
That companies would have to pay a higher tax rate if they employ people to work from home. No government is going to mandate that. They might remove the tax breaks you can have if you use your home as an office, but even that won't happen under a Tory government as a large fraction of their contributing supporters will be in that category. Different jobs have always had different workplaces. All that's happening is a change in where some of those workplaces are. If a government were serious about moving against a worldwide trend they would be better off with carrots (tax breaks for travelling to work for everyone for example). That's not going to happen any time soon either. The only people with influence really calling for something to be done are the property owners who are about to see values diminish. The big companies by and large can already see the advantage of having a much smaller property footprint for their office staff with people coming into the office on a rota system. The only reason the government ever sticks their oar in on this one is because Johnston wants to declare the war against covid won, and normality regained, and to shut the even dimmer members of the commentariat in the press up. Not sure about that. The Tory press is mostly against working from home and it’s not popular in the red wall either. There would be a lot of people happy if the Tories made working from home more difficult.
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1,846 posts
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Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 5, 2021 10:50:31 GMT
Red Wall maybe, it would be the final nail in the Blue Wall in the Home Counties already drifting to the Lib Dems where more seats are at risk that they won in the North.
Traditional Tory voters in the south are more likely to be working from home and will not take lightly being frog marched into the office.
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Post by hairspray57 on Oct 5, 2021 10:52:37 GMT
Red Wall maybe, it would be the final nail in the Blue Wall in the Home Counties already drifting to the Lib Dems where more seats are at risk that they won in the North. Traditional Tory voters in the south are more likely to be working from home and will not take lightly being frog marched into the office. Through even then it only be mostly younger voters. Older people in those areas are often strongly anti working from home.
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Post by talkingheads on Oct 5, 2021 11:17:46 GMT
Different jobs are ... different. They have different requirements and offer different benefits. Complaining because some people can work from home and others can't is like complaining that some people can work outdoors and some can't, or some jobs involve travel and some don't, or some jobs require variable shifts and some don't. Some jobs come with a car, some come with health insurance, some come with low-cost mortgages, some come with share options, some come with discounts on company products. Others don't.
It's not even as if working from home is anything new. My mother worked from home in the late 1970s. Since the rise of the first portable computers and home computers around thirty years ago home working has been available to an increasing number of office workers. The only thing that has been holding it back is management inertia.
At one time centralised offices weren't a thing. Then they became a thing. Now they're on their way to becoming not a thing again. The idea of people commuting to central locations happened because the needs of business moved ahead of the technology available. Now technology has caught up. We don't need the imposition of the old way of doing things any more.
Don't need people in the office and they can be based anywhere companies will soon realise they can move those jobs east to cheaper workforces. What I always say to that argument is that if it really was significantly cheaper, they would have done it long ago. If anything, working from home should require a pay rise - you are using your own resources, electricity etc.
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4,799 posts
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Post by The Matthew on Oct 5, 2021 11:22:40 GMT
Different jobs are ... different. They have different requirements and offer different benefits. Complaining because some people can work from home and others can't is like complaining that some people can work outdoors and some can't, or some jobs involve travel and some don't, or some jobs require variable shifts and some don't. Some jobs come with a car, some come with health insurance, some come with low-cost mortgages, some come with share options, some come with discounts on company products. Others don't.
It's not even as if working from home is anything new. My mother worked from home in the late 1970s. Since the rise of the first portable computers and home computers around thirty years ago home working has been available to an increasing number of office workers. The only thing that has been holding it back is management inertia.
At one time centralised offices weren't a thing. Then they became a thing. Now they're on their way to becoming not a thing again. The idea of people commuting to central locations happened because the needs of business moved ahead of the technology available. Now technology has caught up. We don't need the imposition of the old way of doing things any more.
Don't need people in the office and they can be based anywhere companies will soon realise they can move those jobs east to cheaper workforces. That's how it was in the 1990s but it doesn't work that way any more because employees have a choice too. I work for a company that employs people from around the world and my colleagues from eastern Europe, India, the Philippines and so on expect to be paid as much as people in the United States, and they are. They know what they're worth and they're not going to work for a company that treats them as if they're too stupid to figure out the value of what they're doing. The low cost of living where they are means they benefit from a better quality of life. It doesn't mean they're willing to work for less money.
When there were only a few opportunities for remote work people in countries like India had to take what they could get and as long as they were paid more than local jobs offered they were happy. Now they're in a position to look around for better-paying jobs and they don't have to settle for the only western company in town.
The main area that will really suffer is manufacturing, because it can be done anywhere but can't be done remotely.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 5, 2021 12:02:00 GMT
Don't need people in the office and they can be based anywhere companies will soon realise they can move those jobs east to cheaper workforces. That's how it was in the 1990s but it doesn't work that way any more because employees have a choice too. I work for a company that employs people from around the world and my colleagues from eastern Europe, India, the Philippines and so on expect to be paid as much as people in the United States, and they are. They know what they're worth and they're not going to work for a company that treats them as if they're too stupid to figure out the value of what they're doing. The low cost of living where they are means they benefit from a better quality of life. It doesn't mean they're willing to work for less money.
When there were only a few opportunities for remote work people in countries like India had to take what they could get and as long as they were paid more than local jobs offered they were happy. Now they're in a position to look around for better-paying jobs and they don't have to settle for the only western company in town.
The main area that will really suffer is manufacturing, because it can be done anywhere but can't be done remotely.
Better not tell that to my colleagues in Czechia, Romania and India. Gap has narrowed in twenty five years but still cheaper labour sources for us
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2,206 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 5, 2021 12:04:43 GMT
Don't need people in the office and they can be based anywhere companies will soon realise they can move those jobs east to cheaper workforces. What I always say to that argument is that if it really was significantly cheaper, they would have done it long ago. If anything, working from home should require a pay rise - you are using your own resources, electricity etc. I work for a charity so for us offsetting travel against use of home resources. Works better for some people but that is the deal and most people ok with this
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