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Post by kathryn on Oct 26, 2022 8:21:56 GMT
Without getting too philosophical, musicals about people are rarely about the actual people in every way! The characters are vehicles or representations of the ideas of the creatives.
(This is one of the reasons why film-to-stage adaptations have a tendency to fall flat, I believe - it’s rare for them to actually say anything interesting and they often lose something in the adaptation.)
This musical is primarily interested in the role of religious ministry in the modern world - what is it for, what is it meant to do? And how can that go horribly wrong? How do people fall short of their ideals?
The degree of Tammy Faye’s real-world spending, her second marriage, all of that detail, it doesn’t fit with what she represents in the musical. The show wouldn’t work with that stuff in, because she is there to represent the naive-but-appealing belief that religious ministry is about spreading love and connection to people, as opposed to the people who want to use it to gain political power so they can impose their morals on others.
They can’t portray her as a cynical grifter who was just in it to get rich (though they do have characters who hint they believe she is a fake) because then the musical doesn’t work on a thematic level.
It is what it is - it can’t have the central character embodying the idea ‘God loves you, he really does!’ be a cynical liar.
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Post by shownut on Oct 26, 2022 8:36:19 GMT
"They can’t portray her as a cynical grifter who was just in it to get rich (though they do have characters who hint they believe she is a fake) because then the musical doesn’t work on a thematic level."
Well, yes and no.
EVITA was a about a woman who manipulated political power and financial corruption to fraud the Argentine public, line her pockets and settle the score with her adversaries, but the musical wisely lumped most of that into one single number ("And The Money Kept Rolling In") and only hinted at it otherwise (her about-face after "Don't Cry For Me" which shows her tears and pathos were all an act) and Che's occasional side remark. Given the truth about Eva and her monstrous character, they still crafted one helluva musical,
You are right in that portraying Tammy in a very negative light (which I have not seen but am going week after next) would prove difficult given the nature of her character (Evita was a known bully whereas Tammy was thought of as anything but).
On the other hand, were she a 'cynical liar' while preaching the word of God, it would make total sense and good fodder for a musical given today's political landscape in America. The Christian Right-Wing of the GOP (who would have been avid PTL supporters and no doubt donors to the Jim/Tammy circus) think a lying, grifting, con-artist known as Donald Trump is a divine being and defend or excuse every lie he tells and every law he breaks. But was Tammy that kind of "Christian". I would like to think not but within the musical it could pose an interesting question.
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Post by FJ on Oct 26, 2022 8:37:22 GMT
Is it supposed to be press night tonight? Worrying if they had to cancel last night’s due to illness. Hopefully it’s still able to go ahead.
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Post by viserys on Oct 26, 2022 8:42:21 GMT
I can see both sides of the medal here. I didn't know anything about Tammy Faye when this musical was announced, so I recently watched the movie "The Eyes of Tammy Faye" to find out more and I'll admit that I found it hard to like her. As someone who is deeply doubtful about religion and feels uncomfortable about the conservative Christian Right in the USA (even if it wasn't quite as terrible in Tammy's days as it is now), I could never really warm to all that "God loves you" stuff. I'm also endlessly tired of the trope of the clueless ditzy housewife who seems unaware of her husband's doings and just takes the money to happily spend without questions. So I can see how people may find it difficult to emphasize with Tammy in the way she's portrayed in the musical as well. Personally, as a cynic, I would probably also prefer an Evita-like approach, where the so-called Saint of the Common People is questioned and exposed. At the end of the day I have more respect for Eva Duarte/Person as a gritty social climber who made her own way to the top by playing everyone around her, even if I disapprove of her as person.
That said... I can also understand the approach the movie and now the musical have gone for, wanting to show her in a positive light and focus on her wish to "spread love and connection to people" as Kathryn so eloquently put it. So I respect that as their choice (just as the producers of MJ - the Musical seems to focus on Michael Jackson's artistic side and leave out his iffy personal side) and try to enjoy the musical with an open mind. If you feel you cannot do that (which I also respect, just as there are musicals I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole) and make a conscious decision to stay away, then that's fine too.
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Post by viserys on Oct 26, 2022 8:42:55 GMT
LOL shownut beat me to the Evita comparison! |
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Post by shownut on Oct 26, 2022 8:50:13 GMT
LOL shownut beat me to the Evita comparison! Well, great minds and all... :-) |
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Post by kathryn on Oct 26, 2022 8:58:32 GMT
Anyway, were she a 'cynical liar' preaching the word of God, it would make total sense and good fodder for a musical given today's political landscape in America. The Christian Right-Wing of the GOP (who would have been avid PTL supporters) think Trump is Jesus so what does that tell us? That’s an entirely different musical/story, though. All the characters in this show are true believers, not cynics. They all really think they are doing God’s work, that there will be a second coming. They are Evangelicals. They’re not pulling a Trump and pretending to be when it suits. They do bad things, and their faith allows them to justify those bad things to themselves. And that’s what the show is really *about*, thematically. Tammy in the show genuinely believes that she earnt the money and should be able to spend it how she pleases. She genuinely believes in the prosperity gospel - that being rich is a sign that she is beloved by God, and that God will bring prosperity and abundance to her followers too. That’s all the show needs - for her to be sincere, and not cynical - for the theme to work. And Tammy’s big arc is finding out the truth - that they have been defrauding people of their money, that Jim did lie to her, that poor Jessica Hahn was abused, that Falwell wasn’t a friend trying to help them out. That many of the people who were saying ‘God loves you!’ alongside her didn’t really mean it. She moves from naïveté to knowledge. So it doesn’t work if she is cynical. |
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Post by viserys on Oct 26, 2022 9:13:01 GMT
Don't want to risk quoting the spoiler and thereby revealing it - but thanks, that makes perfect sense and gives me hope that I will enjoy the show!
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Post by Steve on Oct 26, 2022 9:35:11 GMT
The musical is a bit of a hagiography, I agree, but aren't most of the biographical ones that way? This is entertainment, and people would rather pay to feel good than feel bad lol. I agree with Kathryn that this musical is about taking on the power-hungry and ultra-powerful Christian right in America (that has recently succeeded in taking away a lot of rights that American women used to have over their own bodies). And a musical that is bold enough, and important enough, to do that is hardly going to water down and complicate the decency of the ONLY compassionate human being (and protagonist) in the whole show. This simplistic opposition between good (compassionate Tammy Faye) and bad (hypocritical and judgemental religious right) is why I suggested this musical doesn't reinvent the wheel. For example, if I wanted to make a traditional musical about Winston Churchill, I'd focus on how he won the war despite his battle with bipolar disorder. But if I wanted to reinvent the wheel and tell a more complete truth, I'd include how he wanted to use chemical weapons to preserve the empire in India, and how he did in fact use chemical weapons against the Soviets in 1919. Somehow, I don't think people would spend their hard-earned money on the downer of "Winston the War Criminal Musical" tickets lol. Like Walt Whitman suggested, all people contain "multitudes" of selves, multitudes of truths, and I think this musical, about the superiority of compassion over judgementalism, is telling an important fundamental truth, even if it is hagiographic about Tammy Faye at the margins. It's a good story worth telling. Evita is an exception that proves the rule. It's a truly great musical because it both promotes Evita, through Lloyd Webber's romantic emotionalism and simultaneously attacks her, through Tim Rice's clear eyed satire of her political propaganda, utilising the character of Che. By unleashing Tim Rice's vision fully, I felt that Jamie Lloyd's recent production was a revelation and deserved 5 stars. This show is not that good, but it's great, and most shows aren't even that good.  |
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Post by kathryn on Oct 26, 2022 9:37:38 GMT
I hope you do viserys! I think for some atheists they will find it jarring to not having a Che-like character commenting outside of the action, to express their cynicism and disbelief. The show comes very much from within the perspective of believers. It’s one of the reasons why I think it’ll go down a storm on Broadway - it does not say that religious belief is in itself bad, it’s not going to put off Christians even though it exposes Christians behaving badly and questions whether their influence on American politics is good. (James Graham’s influence as book writer is very much in evidence.) |
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Oct 26, 2022 10:35:00 GMT
It's interesting just to see a major musical exploring themes of religion so overtly, in a time when religion is having such an impact on politics (especially in America). I wonder to what extent the extremely varied religious backgrounds of the creative team played in figuring out what balance to strike in how to portray faith and organised religion as an entity.
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Post by Mark on Oct 26, 2022 10:45:40 GMT
How fascinating to read after a post show research binge that Jim Bakker is still alive and still at it - selling liquid silver and claiming it would help cure covid-19.
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Post by kathryn on Oct 26, 2022 11:53:50 GMT
It's interesting just to see a major musical exploring themes of religion so overtly, in a time when religion is having such an impact on politics (especially in America). I wonder to what extent the extremely varied religious backgrounds of the creative team played in figuring out what balance to strike in how to portray faith and organised religion as an entity. Elton John and David Furnish are a lot more religious themselves than people realise. They wisely don’t shout about it but you’ll notice it here and there. They’ve both been through the 12-step programme, which insists in the belief in a ‘higher power’. I don’t think they are into organised religion but a lot of the more generalised faith-based ideas - compassion, redemption, forgiveness - are very evident when they discuss their charitable work. And they have a chapel in their back garden. I suspect it’s why they were drawn to the project in the first place. |
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Post by Stephen on Oct 26, 2022 12:29:14 GMT
Having missed out last night and keen to return, does anyone have advice on a good time to arrive to join the returns queue?
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Post by c4ndyc4ne on Oct 26, 2022 13:53:56 GMT
press night proceeding as planned
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Post by alece10 on Oct 26, 2022 14:49:12 GMT
Having missed out last night and keen to return, does anyone have advice on a good time to arrive to join the returns queue? Give the box office a ring, they are really helpful and should be able to give you an idea on that time people have been arriving so far. |
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Post by Stephen on Oct 26, 2022 18:22:10 GMT
I can update that the Almeida box office team have been incredibly helpful today offering us several alternate tickets which have been returned across the run today. Excellent customer service and really grateful to be treated so well as we were gutted at the cancellation yesterday. Have now secured some tickets of similar value in a few weeks.
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Post by Being Alive on Oct 26, 2022 19:25:15 GMT
Almeida box office were amazing with us last night - so helpful.
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Post by lonlad on Oct 26, 2022 22:59:24 GMT
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Post by kathryn on Oct 26, 2022 23:22:50 GMT
Dom Cavendish is basically comparing it unfavourably to the Jessica Chastain film.
That’s once he gets past commenting on the fact that Elton John wasn’t there for opening night.
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Post by Being Alive on Oct 26, 2022 23:25:05 GMT
Which is beyond daft because apart from Chastain (and to a lesser extent Garfield) the film was beyond generic
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Post by nottobe on Oct 27, 2022 0:00:29 GMT
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Post by cezbear on Oct 27, 2022 0:15:55 GMT
Oh this is a shame, I've been very excited to go after such wildly positive reviews on here - I don't know that I often see such a pretty unanimous praise here for something new.
I think I'll not read the media reviews until I've been, I don't want poisoning!
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Post by inthenose on Oct 27, 2022 0:25:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2022 0:51:39 GMT
The New York post review is ridiculous.
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