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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 22:25:42 GMT
Still what? Maybe it would be more useful to wonder why, in scores of seats in the north, midlands and Wales (rather than a couple in London), why Labour did so badly where there was no significant Lib Dem vote. Look elsewhere to find out why this disaster happened. We know why it happened...Brexit x So why did polling show that Boris Johnson of all people seen as more trustworthy on the NHS of all things?! Corbyn and the Momentumites destroyed Labour, if you don't learn that then Labour is dead as a party from now on. |
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Post by intoanewlife on Dec 13, 2019 22:33:25 GMT
We know why it happened...Brexit x So why did polling show that Boris Johnson of all people seen as more trustworthy on the NHS of all things?! I wouldn't even want to try and work out how these peoples minds work... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 22:36:43 GMT
So why did polling show that Boris Johnson of all people seen as more trustworthy on the NHS of all things?! I wouldn't even want to try and work out how these peoples minds work... QED |
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Post by intoanewlife on Dec 13, 2019 22:38:09 GMT
I wouldn't even want to try and work out how these peoples minds work... QED ? |
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 13, 2019 22:59:07 GMT
The Liberals had a shocking election, Jo Swinson campaign was worse than Theresa Mays. I had no clue what their message was.
Jeremy Corbyn was a necessary evil, labour had to go through as I said in an earlier post new labour came toxic in 2008, with the crash and Iraq. Maybe they can elect a leader halfway between Corbyn and Blair. That will appeal to the public.
Okay Brexit won’t be an issue at the next election, if the economy does well then no ones is going to stick that in their manifesto. Labour doesn’t have to convince voters on Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn, 2 big albatrosses removed.
Unless
Boris doesn’t deliver on Brexit, that will be fatal for him.
The economy tanks, worse than Europe, an argument can be had for another referendum.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 23:00:04 GMT
The problem comes down to an unwillingness to listen and understand. You just confirmed that. |
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Post by intoanewlife on Dec 13, 2019 23:14:35 GMT
The problem comes down to an unwillingness to listen and understand. You just confirmed that. Wait...how did this all become my fault? |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Dec 13, 2019 23:21:26 GMT
The Liberals had a shocking election, Jo Swinson campaign was worse than Theresa Mays. I had no clue what their message was. Jeremy Corbyn was a necessary evil, labour had to go through as I said in an earlier post new labour came toxic in 2008, with the crash and Iraq. Maybe they can elect a leader halfway between Corbyn and Blair. That will appeal to the public. Okay Brexit won’t be an issue at the next election, if the economy does well then no ones is going to stick that in their manifesto. Labour doesn’t have to convince voters on Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn, 2 big albatrosses removed. Unless Boris doesn’t deliver on Brexit, that will be fatal for him. The economy tanks, worse than Europe, an argument can be had for another referendum. Right wing press will do a number on every Labour leader, that one isn't going away. |
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Post by firefingers on Dec 13, 2019 23:25:42 GMT
Only way to solve Labour's leader being torn apart: have an interim one until 6 months before election, then tap out and be replaced by a mystery unknown. The less time the papers have to dismantle their leader the better.
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 14, 2019 0:21:36 GMT
The Liberals had a shocking election, Jo Swinson campaign was worse than Theresa Mays. I had no clue what their message was. Jeremy Corbyn was a necessary evil, labour had to go through as I said in an earlier post new labour came toxic in 2008, with the crash and Iraq. Maybe they can elect a leader halfway between Corbyn and Blair. That will appeal to the public. Okay Brexit won’t be an issue at the next election, if the economy does well then no ones is going to stick that in their manifesto. Labour doesn’t have to convince voters on Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn, 2 big albatrosses removed. Unless Boris doesn’t deliver on Brexit, that will be fatal for him. The economy tanks, worse than Europe, an argument can be had for another referendum. Right wing press will do a number on every Labour leader, that one isn't going away. I kind of agree, but they report the bile they receive from 55 Tufton Street. Their funding is less than transparent. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 0:53:15 GMT
In 2005 Labour got 355 seats and the Tories 198 and in 2010 Labour were out of power so in 5 years time we could see a change of government. I had said in the run up to yesterday that whoever won this time, the other major party was likely to win next time. For Labour now to get a majority next time would be hard but they got 40% only 2 years ago so votes are there. The key is the tight leader. Sir Kier Starmer is probably the sharpest guy in their top team but would the unions back a Sir and a QC type guy. They might go for a younger person if they will have 5 years to grow in opposition. This is where the loss of people of Chuka's quality is a huge blow to Labour. Could they even reach out to David Miliband to return? He is still only 54 years old but would he want to return to frontline politics given he has a very well paid job in NY. There is also a fair chance that the left will refuse to cede power. In such a case, what would the centrist MPs do? I doubt they will just wait it out yet again. Several including people of the quality of Chuka jumped ship to the Liberal Democrats or the Soubry party but they all lost their seats or weren't elected, so would starting a new party from scratch even be an option. Plus they would be seen as playing musical chairs with their parties and any further split in Labour would hand the Tories an even stronger chance to stay in power when you also have to factor in that the Brexit Party won't be around in it's current form in the future. Maybe a David Miliband type character is the sort of person who would have the clout and gravitas to form a new party otherwise you are getting into the Tony Blair type figure territory or they ask Mr Farage to suddenly swerve left. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 0:54:10 GMT
The last paragraph is a joke. Neither lady is ugly but they are called the Ugly Sisters in panto. Some places call them wicked Stepsisters when they are played by females. There was a similar joke about the House of York offering themselves up as a Panto Package as Baron Hardup, the Wicked Stepmother and the Ugly Sisters. Gosh with "jokes" like that you could write a Telegraph column. Never really read the Telegraph apart from it's cricket coverage. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 1:02:30 GMT
Labour proved that they could win with new Labour under Blair and might well have won in 1992 but the voters didn't trust Neil Kinnock - remember the Oggy Oggy Oggy speech which might have even cost them that election. In hindsight with Black Wednesday following a few months later, staying out of power did them more good.
There are all those former Lib Dem voters too which a more centrist Labour Party would have a good chance of wooing but with a very left leaning Party Membership it will be hard for them to choose a leader of that mindset as the Corbyn inner circle would have enough MPs to get someone of their line of thinking on the ballot paper in any leadership election.
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Post by Dave25 on Dec 14, 2019 10:26:24 GMT
Actually, the majority of votes was against the Conservatives. The seat system is flawed. We now have an outcome that a minority wanted. So it's the seat system and the real public opinion that clashes. This was a final spasm of a disappearing generation. Change will come.
Yes, I'm still bitter. Working on it.
Next step. Release the IC report into Russian interference. And a decision on the investigation on Johnson and Arcuri and bribery allegations looked into. If referendum is declared invalid, what will the conservative minority have voted for? Brexit and Government are still 2 very different things.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Dec 14, 2019 11:44:05 GMT
There is also a fair chance that the left will refuse to cede power. In such a case, what would the centrist MPs do? I doubt they will just wait it out yet again. Several including people of the quality of Chuka jumped ship to the Liberal Democrats or the Soubry party but they all lost their seats or weren't elected, so would starting a new party from scratch even be an option. Plus they would be seen as playing musical chairs with their parties and any further split in Labour would hand the Tories an even stronger chance to stay in power when you also have to factor in that the Brexit Party won't be around in it's current form in the future. Maybe a David Miliband type character is the sort of person who would have the clout and gravitas to form a new party otherwise you are getting into the Tony Blair type figure territory or they ask Mr Farage to suddenly swerve left. You are going to have to enlighten me? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 11:44:29 GMT
Actually, the majority of votes was against the Conservatives. The seat system is flawed. We now have an outcome that a minority wanted. So it's the seat system and the real public opinion that clashes. This was a final spasm of a disappearing generation. Change will come. Yes, I'm still bitter. Working on it. Next step. Release the IC report into Russian interference. And a decision on the investigation on Johnson and Arcuri and bribery allegations looked into. If referendum is declared invalid, what will the conservative minority have voted for? Brexit and Government are still 2 very different things. There was a larger majority of votes against Labour than there was a majority of votes against the Conservatives, that is why the latter won. First past the post is ridiculous but it does usually reward the vote winner, it just turns pluralities into majorities. On tne problem of the membership, Labour was taken down this dead end by an entryist membership. Change the membership, change the party. Starting a new party rarely works, taking over an existing one is much easier. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Dec 14, 2019 11:46:20 GMT
There is also a fair chance that the left will refuse to cede power. In such a case, what would the centrist MPs do? I doubt they will just wait it out yet again. Several including people of the quality of Chuka jumped ship to the Liberal Democrats or the Soubry party but they all lost their seats or weren't elected, so would starting a new party from scratch even be an option. Plus they would be seen as playing musical chairs with their parties and any further split in Labour would hand the Tories an even stronger chance to stay in power when you also have to factor in that the Brexit Party won't be around in it's current form in the future. Maybe a David Miliband type character is the sort of person who would have the clout and gravitas to form a new party otherwise you are getting into the Tony Blair type figure territory or they ask Mr Farage to suddenly swerve left. Isn't the Labour party a left wing party? Cede to who, you must have noticed the Centrists were wiped out at the election?  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 11:58:50 GMT
Actually, the majority of votes was against the Conservatives. The seat system is flawed. We now have an outcome that a minority wanted. So it's the seat system and the real public opinion that clashes. This was a final spasm of a disappearing generation. Change will come. Yes, I'm still bitter. Working on it. Next step. Release the IC report into Russian interference. And a decision on the investigation on Johnson and Arcuri and bribery allegations looked into. If referendum is declared invalid, what will the conservative minority have voted for? Brexit and Government are still 2 very different things. You can spin it anyway you want, but the majority of votes were not against the Conservatives. By that logic the majority of votes were against the Brexit Party, meaning the election result was a success. It’s just spin. You can’t claim people are against the Tory party by voting for another. Each party have their qualities and a vote for someone else doesn’t mean people are automatically against the conservatives. It simply means another party was more advantageous to vote for overall. The simple truth is the conservatives won the highest number of votes and seats. They won the populist vote and they are the most supported party in the country. Only twice since 1900 has a single party achieved more than 50% of the votes, so it’s a total rarity for any winning party to claim they have the majority of votes anyway. Coincidentally, on both occasions it was the Tories with more than 50% of votes. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 12:26:05 GMT
Several including people of the quality of Chuka jumped ship to the Liberal Democrats or the Soubry party but they all lost their seats or weren't elected, so would starting a new party from scratch even be an option. Plus they would be seen as playing musical chairs with their parties and any further split in Labour would hand the Tories an even stronger chance to stay in power when you also have to factor in that the Brexit Party won't be around in it's current form in the future. Maybe a David Miliband type character is the sort of person who would have the clout and gravitas to form a new party otherwise you are getting into the Tony Blair type figure territory or they ask Mr Farage to suddenly swerve left. Isn't the Labour party a left wing party? Cede to who, you must have noticed the Centrists were wiped out at the election? Labour centrists suffered because of the manifesto and being run by the left. People like Cooper, Benn, Phillips etc. were all re-elected, though. The more centrist Lib Dems were the party that gained the most votes, up to 3.7 million, but FPTP again smothers that. Tactical voting could have worked much better and I think it’s clear why it didn’t. First, the decision to create a distinction from Labour by revoking rather than referendum stopped that vote crossover, the distinction was unnecessary. Second, the sheer viciousness coming from the Momentumite left against anyone perceived as not left enough stopped much vote crossover. Lib Dems were harangued mercilessly, leading to many refusing to vote for a party that was insulting them, the atmosphere meant that the opposite also became inevitable. Blair kept winning because he realised that the enemy was only the Conservatives, nobody else. |
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Post by Dave25 on Dec 14, 2019 12:54:44 GMT
If you are in favor of a well-functioning democracy, you have to ask yourself how democratic it is that a party with 43,6 % of the votes achieves such a big parliamentary majority. Labour and LibDems received 43,7 %. We need proportional representation.
FPTP elections became meaningless the moment there were more than two parties. Any system that consistently gives almost unbridled power to the largest minority is not going to work.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 12:58:14 GMT
Several including people of the quality of Chuka jumped ship to the Liberal Democrats or the Soubry party but they all lost their seats or weren't elected, so would starting a new party from scratch even be an option. Plus they would be seen as playing musical chairs with their parties and any further split in Labour would hand the Tories an even stronger chance to stay in power when you also have to factor in that the Brexit Party won't be around in it's current form in the future. Maybe a David Miliband type character is the sort of person who would have the clout and gravitas to form a new party otherwise you are getting into the Tony Blair type figure territory or they ask Mr Farage to suddenly swerve left. You are going to have to enlighten me? Chuka was apparently the person the Tories feared when Labour were looking to elect a leader to replace Ed Miliband and he was seen as a frontrunner for that job before he declined to run. The guy has a good media image, good speaker and has a bit of gravitas about him. There was maybe a bit of the British Obama hype but he ticked a lot of boxes for a potential leader in my books. Jumping ship and being in 3 parties in one year has tarnished him but he increased his new parties share of the vote hugely in the seat he contested. Also a lot of the people who left the Labour Party had been deselected, were older and coming towards the end of their political career but Chuka certainly wasn't. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 13:04:39 GMT
If you are in favor of a well-functioning democracy, you have to ask yourself how democratic it is that a party with 43,6 % of the votes achieves such a big parliamentary majority. Labour and LibDems received 43,7 %. We need proportional representation. FPTP elections became meaningless the moment there were more than two parties. Any system that consistently gives almost unbridled power to the largest minority is not going to work. We had a referendum on this in 2011 I think. I actually voted for PR as I thought the FPTP system disproportionally favoured Labour over the Tories. This is the first election that I can remember where Labour has done worse seatwise compared to vote %. In both 1983 and 2015 the party won more seats with a lower percentage of the vote than they got on Thursday. Also the overall vote percentage is skewed as both major Parties have safe seats where they can get 60% plus of the vote. If anyone has any data how this or any other election vote would have looked under a PR system as per MP allocation, I'd love to see it to see what the seat allocations would have been. |
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Post by Dave25 on Dec 14, 2019 13:12:44 GMT
We had a referendum on this in 2011 I think. Really? That's bizarre. I think this is not something the public should vote about. The FPTP approach should be out of the question per definition. It's so undemocratic and separated from the will of the majority of people that voting in favor of it would be totally undemocratic and ironic. |
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Post by intoanewlife on Dec 14, 2019 13:21:45 GMT
The main problem here is the media and their lies paired with the reinvention of politicians who have absolutely no problem blatantly doing the same without conscience.
They have spent the last 20 years re-weaponising the 2 biggest ways to manipulate the public for centuries, religion and patriotism/nationalism and now it has all finally fallen into place for them.
'Liberal' has now become the same dirty word here it has become in the States where you have half the country who flat out refuse to even say the word Democrat, let alone cast a vote for them.
This isn't going to change for a very long time now as it is too thoroughly engrained in the culture.
For a long time we have falsely thought 'we are better than them', it's now been proven that we aren't.
I don't know what the answer is, I don't think there is one anymore.
The only solution I can see is just giving up on the whole process like the people who live in countries ruled by dictators have to do and just get on with your life and hope the hammer of whatever tomorrows nut jobbery brings doesn't take you out before you eventually die from starvation or a disease you can't afford medication for...
I'm so glad I'm a fag and didn't breed. The guilt of leaving a child to live through whats coming would be enough to kill me.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Dec 14, 2019 13:27:01 GMT
You are going to have to enlighten me? Chuka was apparently the person the Tories feared when Labour were looking to elect a leader to replace Ed Miliband and he was seen as a frontrunner for that job before he declined to run. The guy has a good media image, good speaker and has a bit of gravitas about him. There was maybe a bit of the British Obama hype but he ticked a lot of boxes for a potential leader in my books. Jumping ship and being in 3 parties in one year has tarnished him but he increased his new parties share of the vote hugely in the seat he contested. Also a lot of the people who left the Labour Party had been deselected, were older and coming towards the end of their political career but Chuka certainly wasn't. So popular with the Tory party? |
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