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Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 20, 2019 11:39:55 GMT
Any one taking part in today’s strike action day.
Currently between contracts and on a summer sabbatical am therefore unable to strike and having no children to leave this burning planet to I am currently sitting this one out but it is niggling me and may go down to Parliament Sq later this afternoon.
This is an impressive movement, we adults have not done a very good job as curators of this planet for future generations, not sure whether it was something I was naturally trending towards or my conscience being kickstarted by this movement but have seen my environmental awareness increasing over the last few months and am beginning to introduce long overdue albeit small changes in how I live to reduce my impact on the environment.
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Post by HereForTheatre on Sept 20, 2019 12:07:03 GMT
I think they need to look at what they are doing because a lot of their actions are doing the opposite of getting people onside and listening to them. Nothing that effects peoples daily lives and ruins their day or livelihoods like blocking travel is going to do this group any favours, it's going to turn people against them. They are going about things the wrong way and it will only be to their own detriment and the detriment of their message. I have no issue with a peaceful protest like today but that other crap they like to do they can take a hike with.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 12:15:52 GMT
I think they need to look at what they are doing because a lot of their actions are doing the opposite of getting people onside and listening to them. Nothing that effects peoples daily lives and ruins their day or livelihoods like blocking travel is going to do this group any favours, it's going to turn people against them. They are going about things the wrong way and it will only be to their own detriment and the detriment of their message. I have no issue with a peaceful protest like today but that other crap they like to do they can take a hike with. With the greatest respects I think u r a bit out of touch here. Millions of people across the globe are protesting today. You need to see past u day being ruined. All days will be ruined if we don’t do anything. People for decades have been trying different ways to get people to listen and that hasn’t done anything. Mass disruption is the way ahead now. why don’t you contact your local mp, tell them u are annoyed that your day has been ruined and demand your mp does something to listen to these people and act so they don’t have to ruin your day again |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 12:19:43 GMT
Sadly, I don't buy that "the kids are walking out of classrooms to protest." More like, "the kids are delighted to get a day off without getting the serious punishment we would have got back in our times for bunking off." Agree with HereForTheatre . Protest if you like, but don't get in the way of others. Oh, and if you have a higher carbon footprint than I do, also please don't tell what to do or not to do with my life, thanks. Guessing u and AndyH are of an age where the change of climate won’t affect you? These kids aren’t doing it for a jolly (although of course it doesn’t hurt) but because they have been told we have a decade tops to turn this around. Yes people are marching that have bigger carbon footprints than you but it’s the whole system that needs fixing and these people see that. |
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Post by christya on Sept 20, 2019 12:24:15 GMT
I don't think for one minute that most of these kids are in it for anything other than a combination of bandwagon-jumping and a day off school. But so long as they can protest without stopping people going about their daily business, whatever. It's their time. People who block public highways, etc, should be forcibly removed, but most protests don't do any harm.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 12:31:18 GMT
Sadly, I don't buy that "the kids are walking out of classrooms to protest." More like, "the kids are delighted to get a day off without getting the serious punishment we would have got back in our times for bunking off." Agree with HereForTheatre . Protest if you like, but don't get in the way of others. Oh, and if you have a higher carbon footprint than I do, also please don't tell what to do or not to do with my life, thanks. Guessing u and AndyH are of an age where the change of climate won’t affect you? These kids aren’t doing it for a jolly (although of course it doesn’t hurt) but because they have been told we have a decade tops to turn this around. Yes people are marching that have bigger carbon footprints than you but it’s the whole system that needs fixing and these people see that. I don’t doubt that some practice what they preach but many appear to be a bunch of hypocrites. It doesn’t make me warm to their message. Also, I walk a lot and use public transport in London - I don’t drive. Their last mega-protest made it hard for people to use buses as they blocked the roads and glued themselves to tubes/trains. So I do rather question their logic, and it leads me to believe they’re just out generally to cause trouble. The protesters would also do better to target the countries that are the source of the largest emissions - but then we all know how well protest would go down in China, right? I would urge the well-intentioned to do a lot more reading about the Extinction Rebellion lot. They have an avowed interest in bringing down the government and I think it’s totally wrong they’re manipulating people concerned about climate change to try to do it. Not to mention the kids now requiring treatment for anxiety because this irresponsible bunch have convinced them the world is going to end tomorrow. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 12:33:24 GMT
Andy I can't speak for. Myself, it isn't about "being affected" more about seeing a far broader picture over a very long time - both scientific and political. I do agree betty that as you get older you do become a lot more cynical. Basically, these people would have been CND "Ban The Bomb" when I was small, then "Women's Rights" as a teenager and into "Rock Against Racism" after that. I'm afraid it really is all just the latest cause those with enough time choose to cling to, and there will be another along shortly. That's just the way life goes and you won't stop it. Again with the greatest respect - do you see this as just a fad? This may be the biggest protest the world has ever seen! Do you not believe the scientists when they say we are f***ed? the world is heating up rapidly and regardless if it’s man made/not man made most of our leaders are doing nothing about it. I say well done all the people who are protesting! And I don’t believe this is a one off, these protests will happen again and again until our leaders start to take these people seriously |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 12:36:17 GMT
Guessing u and AndyH are of an age where the change of climate won’t affect you? These kids aren’t doing it for a jolly (although of course it doesn’t hurt) but because they have been told we have a decade tops to turn this around. Yes people are marching that have bigger carbon footprints than you but it’s the whole system that needs fixing and these people see that. The protesters would also do better to target the countries that are the source of the largest emissions - but then we all know how well protest would go down in China, right? The UK is 17th in the world |
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Post by kathryn on Sept 20, 2019 12:52:41 GMT
You change systems by one person then another changing habits. So, if they mean it then they will cut their carbon footprint down to my level and below. That's how things change. If you just protest then jet off on holiday, you are doing nothing for the credibility of your cause. No, individual action doesn’t change systems - legislation does. We’ve seen this time and again. You want smoking levels to decrease? Try education, try printing warnings on the packets - it makes a very small dent. Ban tobacco advertising and smoking in public places and hey presto, big changes. There are any number of examples - from CFCs to wearing seat belts to drink driving to plastic bag usage. If you want systemic change you have to change the system. |
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Post by Nicholas on Sept 20, 2019 12:58:01 GMT
Greatest respect, but to those cynics belittling people skiving off school… You’re wrong. That’s the case with any youth action, and it’s – again, greatest respect – an attitude that immediately disqualifies the anger, fear and legitimate politicisation of a generation.
When the tuition fees were raised, what do you remember – thousands taking to the street, old and young, to protest austerity changing fundamentally the principles of education, or the bloke who threw a fire extinguisher? Suddenly, raising fees to £9000 was not a serious breach of educational norms, teenagers be teenagers. Years later, with universities struggling under financial pressures they can’t make, young professionals slaves to debt, education a devalued commodity, universities businesses devaluing academic subjects – after all that, maybe we should have listened to the thousands.
Rather than focus on, say, the apathetic few people who drive to and from the protest, let’s listen to the people who’ve put in great effort and time to make a point that matters. I can guarantee, therefore, that today, most of the people you see are committed and passionate protestors, not slackers. Why wait until September 20th to slack off school, and spend your hard-earned day-off marching with a placard? To travel to and from the protest takes time and money, to prepare yourself for it takes time and research, to bring a placard with you can add hours to this too. Frankly most protests are boring, you stand still then you walk a bit. Why, oh why, would you skive off school for that? It’s only September 20th – what homework deadlines are worth skipping this early? It’s frankly nonsensical to think that the people taking pains to attend something more difficult than school are doing so for the easy route.
I’m only in my twenties, but going to these strikes, meeting up with people just a little younger than me is becoming, well, embarrassing. We knew these facts ten years ago, we knew the seriousness of climate change. Yes, we made changes to our lives – and hey, for example, using less aerosol HAS had a huge impact, so never say individual actions count for nothing – but we worked on the assumption that good would be done on a global level by someone else. Ten years later and nothing.
This summer, I went to a picket regarding the Siberian wildfires. It was a last-minute global thing, with people all over the world negotiating which embassies to go to, how to publicise the event, how to stay on message across continents. It took great effort to negotiate, and the teenagers who went knew so much about the issue it was astonishing. That was on a Friday in summer, a beautiful sunny day, where a 16-year-old could be doing anything in their young lives – I was the oldest person there by a long way – these were teenagers spending their pocket money and wasting a day of summer to protest wildfires in Siberia. To discredit their disbelief that our forests could burn, on the basis of distrusting a few opportunist teenagers…
As such, I am behind every single person off school today, and will be striking myself. Later there’s a picket up my way and I will join in. I vaguely know the student who’s organised it, and let me tell you, the effort that’s gone in to co-ordinating this, making sure the message is accurately conveyed, making sure a place is found that’s prominent and stark enough… They are getting the science exact, down to getting in touch with scientists. This isn’t slacking off. This is serious, serious work.
P.S. As for the latest cause… Shouldn’t we have banned the bomb – are you not worried by some nutjob in North Korea who might get bored and wipe South Korea off the map, or some nutjob in America who legitimately thinks nuking hurricanes on home soil is a wise idea? Didn’t women’s rights, um, help women with rights – and aren’t the current women’s marches equally prescient descendents thereof, which couldn't have occurred without earlier protest too? Isn’t Rock Against Racism still valid, and arguably not just alive but mainstream in how Black Lives Matter implements contemporary pop? I think one reason this generation is stressed is because, actually, most protestors from the past DIDN’T achieve their all. The list of potential apocalypses doesn't change, but simply increases. We can either get overwhelmed, get cynical, or fight.
P.P.S. Regarding protesting China – as I just said, people protested Russian wildfires, including, um, in Russia, so they want to make a difference both at home and abroad. People are protesting Brazil, and, um, Bolsanaro doesn’t take to global protests kindly. But individual actions make a difference. Local councils take the issue of single-use straws to their MP, who take it to parliament, who present it on PMQs, who make it a law, who declare a global climate crisis, which publicises the issue, which incentivises people across the world, including a little country called China… I can’t go to China and ask them to lower emissions, and I can’t culturally change how people in China feel, but perhaps we can inspire enough people there to fight for it, or inspire our government to take Xi to task. You – little you, in your little town, in your little country – can tell mighty China what to do, simply by pushing hard enough. So, why aren’t you?
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Post by kathryn on Sept 20, 2019 13:02:44 GMT
Also, it’s a bit disturbing to see ‘Women’s Rights’ and ‘Rock Against Racism’ describes as fads here.
I had sort of assumed that we all agreed that women should have the same rights as men and that racism is wrong.
Those social movements have actually been very successful - though the problems of sexism and racism are certainly not completely solved. Protesting - along with other strategies - worked.
I should indeed hope that anyone on today’s protest would have marched for women’s rights and against racism if they’d been around at the time!
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Post by lynette on Sept 20, 2019 13:05:38 GMT
True, Neil, we adults have not done a good job at anything much really. And I do have grandkids who will have to clear up the mess, survive and do better I hope. But I don't like it when the demonstrators prevent for example nurses getting to outpatients, meals on wheels type services, kids going to hospital appointments and ordinary people doing their jobs to put food on the table. And I certainly don’t like the celebrity bandwagon. Emma T I’m looking at you. Through better education , most of us have got the message and now you can see the paper bag action, which is what I call the supermarkets who are getting rid of excessive packaging and so on. This should take off and help a lot. I know just one rather small gesture. But in a couple of years there will be minimal plastic wrapping. It always amuses me that if you buy a fancy bit of clothing you get tissue paper and a smart stiff paper bag with cotton handles, easily reused and recyclable but if you buy a cheapie then you get a plastic bag you have to pay for to stop it being in the rain when you walk home.
But I do have an issue with the blame game. I’m one generation away from people who had food rationing (actually still there on some items in my childhood, yes I am that old, in fact not that old but with a sense of where I come from) and for whom a bit of extra, food, domestic appliances, holidays abroad, seeing a doctor without paying, good roads......came as something hard won and deserved. All this my thoughts on the domestic, home front. But as said above, how about having a go at the big villains. China open what is it, a new coal fired energy station every week? Whatever. They won’t listen. And why should people in the developing world not have some of the stuff we have, what can’t they aspire to technological advances? No washing machines for African housewives?
You might think I am confused...join the club...but school kids missing class isn’t going to solve the problem. Rather stay in class, learn to argue and debate, learn to analyse and interpret, learn how to gather facts, learn how governments work, learn about different cultures...
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Post by HereForTheatre on Sept 20, 2019 13:18:40 GMT
I have no issue with the protests like today and I understand the issue and think it needs urgent attention. My point is that you do not get more people on board and listening by ruining their day. You become the enemy not the hero. Do you think Linda down the road is going to listen and take you seriously if you e stopped her getting to work and earning enough money to put food on the table for her kids? Or someone trying to get to a job interview? Or someone who needs to get to a hospital appointment for urgent treatment or visiting a loved one in hospital? Nthe protests that cause this sort of thing are not justified plain and simple. Protest, knock down the doors of government if you want, don't negatively effect people's lives if you want them to join the cause and start to understand what you are saying. You are turning people agsint you and not towards you.
Ive heard enough from this group and on here to know this advise will fall on deaf ears and they will continue to ruin this for themselves.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 20, 2019 13:24:16 GMT
The tipping point from individual action to legislation is something I have always been interested in.
Using nudge theory it takes about a generation of influence to accept legislation, with safety belts there were years of ‘clunk click every trip’ campaigns and similar campaigns for smoking.
The cynic in me thinks legislation is introduced after individual actions reach a critical mass, enough of us started wearing seat belts and enough of us had given up smoking that legislation was not perceived as that great an imposition by most people.
If we take plastic we are maybe 2/3rds of the way through the influence phase and nearing the critical mass where single use plastic will have the same social impact as smoking in a restaurant does now and using historical precedent we are maybe 5ish years way from legislation to ban plastic bottles with the infrastructure for refilling multi-use bottles now being introduced/returned to public spaces to reduce the imposition legislation will bring.
The question is do we have enough time for individual actions to reach this critical mass and the legislation required to be introduced which is what events like today are meant to highlight.
Extinction Rebellion like all movements have an extremist wing which I agree can impact the positives and undermine the goodwill of many people.
The statistics regarding the number of these young people taking overseas holidays would be interesting to see but one statistic is well known, the number of young people learning to drive is dropping significantly but this could be due to cost rather than good intentions.
After the initial posts I am looking forward to see how this thread develops, initial impressions it could be more divisive than I thought it would be when I created the thread.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 13:30:01 GMT
I have no issue with the protests like today and I understand the issue and think it needs urgent attention. My point is that you do not get more people on board and listening by ruining their day. You become the enemy not the hero. Do you think Linda down the road is going to listen and take you seriously if you e stopped her getting to work and earning enough money to put food on the table for her kids? Or someone trying to get to a job interview? Or someone who needs to get to a hospital appointment for urgent treatment or visiting a loved one in hospital? Nthe protests that cause this sort of thing are not justified plain and simple. Protest, knock down the doors of government if you want, don't negatively effect people's lives if you want them to join the cause and start to understand what you are saying. You are turning people agsint you and not towards you. Ive heard enough from this group and on here to know this advise will fall on deaf ears and they will continue to ruin this for themselves. Cant Linda just go around the protest? Or is she using it as an excuse not to go to work and have a skiving day?? You come up with some fun scenarios but I think you are wrong and most normal people can put up with the very slight disruption to their day. Every year the naked bike ride in Brighton makes it an arse (pun intended) for me to get to work. I accept it and change my course slightly and hey presto! They have their naked fun and it costs me an extra 5 mins of my life but no one died |
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Post by christya on Sept 20, 2019 13:47:44 GMT
The trouble is that normal people won't 'put up with' disruption without being completely turned off the people and supposed 'message' that caused it. If it takes me three hours to get to work instead of one, I don't give a damn what the people who caused that disruption have to say. Especially if they're kids with zero clue about earning a living.
Protest, go on TV if anyone will let you, get published in as many places as possible - but when people are trying to go somewhere, get out of the way. It does nobody any favours.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 14:47:41 GMT
The trouble is that normal people won't 'put up with' disruption without being completely turned off the people and supposed 'message' that caused it. If it takes me three hours to get to work instead of one, I don't give a damn what the people who caused that disruption have to say. Especially if they're kids with zero clue about earning a living. Protest, go on TV if anyone will let you, get published in as many places as possible - but when people are trying to go somewhere, get out of the way. It does nobody any favours. Do you know ANYONE that took 3 hours to get to work this morning rather than their normal 1? Or someone not getting to a job interview? or ambulances not getting through? or is this all mild hysterics? |
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Post by christya on Sept 20, 2019 15:04:59 GMT
This morning? No, but then I haven't been paying it much attention. But there are plenty of people saying similar things from previous events, so if I cared enough I'd probably find the same thing.
It's not for you or anyone else to decide that someone cannot go about their daily business. Get in people's way, and their thought process is going to be closer to "Shut up and move" than to "Oh my, I wonder what made all these people care so much? I'd better give them what they want!".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 16:04:57 GMT
This morning? No, but then I haven't been paying it much attention. But there are plenty of people saying similar things from previous events, so if I cared enough I'd probably find the same thing. It's not for you or anyone else to decide that someone cannot go about their daily business. Get in people's way, and their thought process is going to be closer to "Shut up and move" than to "Oh my, I wonder what made all these people care so much? I'd better give them what they want!". but then u could argue we should get rid of Pride marches so it doesnt annoy people. Or that musical weekend they have in Trafalgar Sq. Or sporting events/gigs at stadiums. or nude bike riding. all these things can stop people going about their day to day business but we dont mind coz its life |
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Post by lynette on Sept 20, 2019 16:08:17 GMT
Legislation v important. The no smoking law brilliant but actually I think there were and there are still a lot of smokers. The moans and groans were many. Same with seat belts. And excuse me for mentioning but the end of capital punishment was also problematic and no one wants a referendum on that one do we? Why not? Because it would be a close run thing. So public feeling as it is perceived by the politicians isn’t always crystal clear. And politicians will only push through what they think will work for them. I think the no smoking law , from the now reviled Blair government was probably the best thing from that government. It was actually quite brave and unusual. Look at France where you can smoke in restaurants to your heart’s content. [ last time I was there]
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Post by profquatermass on Sept 20, 2019 16:19:38 GMT
If we all just sat around waiting for the government to change things, 50% of us wouldn't have the vote and Britain would have taken part in the Vietnam War. Oh and a substantial number of posters would probably be in prison for sexual offences. And India would still be under British rule.
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Post by xanady on Sept 20, 2019 16:25:19 GMT
How many posts in 4 hours?....wow!
Hot topic in more ways than one!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 17:01:12 GMT
Some posters don’t seem to have much contact with young people, given the mischaracterisation. The anger, however, is real and protests such as this are just the beginning. One thing I would add is that concerns over other issues, such as the screwing up of young people’s futures through Brexit or with education funding are entwined and the protests are implicitly about those things as well.
I have never complained about my day being affected by a strike or protest and I never will. We’ve coped with bomb threats, actual bombs, transport meltdown, power cuts and whatever. Especially galling is griping coming from generations of us who have done nothing or paid lip service to issues like this.
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Post by christya on Sept 20, 2019 17:34:06 GMT
but then u could argue we should get rid of Pride marches so it doesnt annoy people. Or that musical weekend they have in Trafalgar Sq. Or sporting events/gigs at stadiums. or nude bike riding. all these things can stop people going about their day to day business but we dont mind coz its life None of those things are deliberately going out to cause disruption and then expecting people to listen to them. I don't care if people want to protest. But they should not deliberately obstruct other people. Those clowns blocking bridges in London are among the worst examples of that, but there are plenty more. People clogging up transport, etc, on their way to a protest? Whatever, get on with it if it floats your boat. People deliberately stopping transport from operating? Entirely different ball game. |
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Post by amp09 on Sept 20, 2019 17:40:07 GMT
Extinction Rebellion are dangerous. They have deeply rooted extremist views that extend much further than what they protest about to the public which has galvanised the mainstream. Just watch this get out of control. Their aim is to have mass protest, break down our democracy and take over the country. Their far left radical views are shocking, from wanting to end democracy as we know it, rolling back on capitalism, causing mass civil disobedience and brainwashing our youth.
I’m all for peaceful protest, but these people need to be stopped and fast before it goes too far. I think the whole country understands the dangers of climate change. I’ve personally noticed a massive change in my habits and friends and families habits to do something about it - the rest needs to come from government, who have already committed (the first and only government in the world to do so I think?) to near zero emissions by 2050.
This is best fought from the centre of politics, in a democratic and lawful way.
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