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Post by altamont on Sept 17, 2019 15:00:29 GMT
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Post by duncan on Sept 17, 2019 15:04:17 GMT
Well I'll agree that The Pitmen Painters was a better show than Frost/Nixon but The Height of the Storm at 23!!! And you can guess the top 2 before you even start reading the list, both of which I personally found disappointing.
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Post by Mark on Sept 17, 2019 15:31:34 GMT
They obviously don't see musicals as a valuable art form. That said its very surprising to see Matilda so high on this list.
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Post by talkingheads on Sept 17, 2019 16:07:01 GMT
Great to see Elmina's Kitchen on the list.
God of Carnage was an average play at best and Height of the Storm bored me to tears, despite the obviously amazing cast, a great actor can only elevate bad material so far!
Of the plays I've seen I'd make a case for David Eldridge's Beginning to be on the list, only play recently I've been moved to see twice.
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Post by Dawnstar on Sept 17, 2019 17:27:12 GMT
Continuing my usual habit of having the opposite view to the Guardian on almost everything, I've seen precisely one of their 50.
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Post by kathryn on Sept 17, 2019 17:35:17 GMT
I’ve seen 18/50 which is not bad for me.
No comment on the correctness of the list - though seeing The York Realist on it did give me a twinge of regret for missing it. Especially since the board response to it was so positive. Most of the others I don’t regret having missed, in all honesty!
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Post by lynette on Sept 17, 2019 17:36:08 GMT
Odd list. It is supposed to be new plays or shows, yes?
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Post by longinthetooth on Sept 17, 2019 17:47:20 GMT
I've seen three. I haven't heard of a lot of them. Not sure if that says more about me than the Guardian, or vice versa!
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Post by altamont on Sept 17, 2019 17:50:01 GMT
I think these are their picks of the best new works produced in the 21at century - they are doing similar things with books/movies etc
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 17:55:47 GMT
I think it's a crap list, personally. If they're calling it 'theatre shows' then it needs to include musicals and dance and opera and ballet and all the other crossover styles as well, surely? Those are mostly plays. I like plays better than musicals etc, but it's not interchangeable with theatre as a term.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 18:25:14 GMT
Odd list. It is supposed to be new plays or shows, yes? Looks like productions first seen in the UK, which had an original performance from 2000 to the present day. I saw 34 or so of them, it’s a good run-through of some highlights although some personal preferences are missing. The Pillowman (NT), It’s Always Right Now Until It’s Later (Daniel Kitson), The Drowned Man (Punchdrunk), The Strange Undoing of Prudencia Hart (National Theatre Scotland), The Master and Margarita (Complicite), Once - the Musical, Lippy (Irish company Dead Centre), This House (NT, and for me the most egregious omission). Given the apparent criteria, also missing are very loose adaptations like Simon Stone’s Yerma or Robert Icke’s Oresteia and Oedipus. Pleased to see Three Kingdoms there, divisive at the time but a real highlight for me.
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Post by robertb213 on Sept 17, 2019 18:51:55 GMT
I've only seen 6 of these, none of which would be in my own Top 50!
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Post by sf on Sept 17, 2019 19:25:21 GMT
These things are always subjective, and usually infuriating.
This one... well, for a start, I wouldn't have ranked Matilda twenty-five places higher than Fun Home. And I liked Matilda.
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Post by danb on Sept 17, 2019 19:49:13 GMT
Assuming ‘Heathers’ is number one?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 19:57:07 GMT
I've seen 5 of them.
Come From Away is the notable omission which immediately springs to mind but there may well be others.
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Post by londonpostie on Sept 17, 2019 22:40:52 GMT
Robert Icke/Andrew Scott's Hamlet?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 6:09:24 GMT
Assuming ‘Heathers’ is number one? Maybe if Buzzfeed was compiling the list
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 6:11:29 GMT
Really surprised to see London Road as one of the very few 'musicals' included but I'm glad to see it get some recognition still. Brilliant piece of work.
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Post by danb on Sept 18, 2019 8:04:35 GMT
Really surprised/heartened to see ‘Hamilton’ at number two. Nearly two years on from opening, for a UK paper to hold it in such high esteem is great. I don’t know who or how many people voted for these placing, and obvs its the Guardian so will be as ‘aware’ as any national can be, but good on them. Whilst I enjoyed ‘Matilda’ when I saw it nothing about it has had a lasting impact.
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Post by drmaplewood on Sept 18, 2019 10:01:01 GMT
The Scottsboro Boys and People, Places & Things are pretty glaring omissions.
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Post by n1david on Sept 18, 2019 10:25:39 GMT
For me the issue with the list is that it doesn’t clearly define what it’s assessing. The headline says “shows”, which indicates performance is being evaluated, but the opening paragraph says “works”, which suggests text is what’s being considered.
In theatre I don’t think you can separate the individual performance from the text, and so saying that (for example) Matilda or The History Boys are in the Top 50, well are you assessing the opening cast (which is what most critics will have seen), or the play regardless of the performances? The opening cast of The History Boys was exceptional, does the play still stand up in its 27th touring cast? Fun Home is listed as 2013 which is when it opened at the Public. Am I entitled to count it if I only saw the London production which was restaged with a different cast?
Really the only point of this is to generate discussion and clicks. Oh look, it’s working. And I can count a surprising 21 if I’m allowed to count any production of a play.
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Post by Nicholas on Sept 18, 2019 10:58:51 GMT
This is a strange, inherently flawed list, not because it’s wrong, or bad, but because it’s unclear whether it means “the best works of drama apropos of their staging” or “the best pieces of theatremaking”. The mention of specific performances (Tim Piggott-Smith MADE King Charles III) suggests productions elevated the scripts (a bit like, you know, theatre). The inclusion of Punchdrunk, or The Encoutner, or even Hamilton, show how impossible it often is (and should be?) to separate the live, performed experience from the mere existence of its text. The decision to only choose texts written after 2000 just for their text is thus bizarre, misses the point, and limits how post-2000s theatre can be understood, for the worse. The list seems to be “plays written after the year 2000 and perhaps with the benefit of a good production”. The problem is that’s isolationist at best and meaningless at worst. God, I’d forgotten how pretentious I get when I come on here.
I think it’s hard to disagree, for example, that theatre was profoundly changed, for the better, by the appearance of A View from the Bridge in the West End and on the NT Live – specifically, its post-Young Vic life. It was a stunning production, still haunting to this day – but even above that I really do think it has held up as a line-in-the-sand production like Brook’s Midsummer, occupying a position in theatrical history. By selling out the West End and Broadway, and doing so well in cinemas across the world, this extraordinary, strange, European, artsy-fartsy production touched many many people in many many ways, fundamentally changing what ‘mainstream’ can be. In a list of vital theatre shows since 2000, its omission is ridiculous. But obviously it must be omitted from this list.
Its exclusion, though, ignores what’s made post-2000 – and especially post 2012ish – theatre so exciting. The best contemporary playwrights – Simon Stephens, Duncan Macmillan, Caryl Churchill – clearly write with space for their directors to direct. I loved Visitors (which I had assumed MUST be on this list, but apparently no) – a seemingly quite conventional modern masterpiece – and even then Barney Norris was fairly upfront about how his collaboration with Alice Hamilton gave his early shows (also Eventide) the brilliance that Laurie Sansom’s Nightfall lacked. To praise the text, and only the text, ignores how the text came to be and why the text works. I just find that sad.
I also thought the Guardian was legally obligated to call Fleabag the best everything. Whilst I personally didn’t really like it, it’s been so influential – and clearly has merit – that its omission does seem like that, an omission.
Lungs also should be on this list. My guess/hope is that too few of the contributors saw its original run, and will kick themselves come November. You guys seeing it at the Old Vic, you’re in for a treat. It’d be in my top ten new texts, and probably ten new productions regardless.
It’s hard to argue with Jerusalem as number one, nor Hamilton as number two. Great to see things like London Road and Fun Home and Mr Burns remembered. In some ways it’s a good list. However, it’s just a deliberately incomplete, misleading list, over-praising playwrights for what made great theatrical experiences, ignoring how and why contemporary theatre – artistically and culturally – is changing for the better.
They’ll probably do a top twenty revivals soon anyway, so this rant is meaningless. God, I’d REALLY forgotten how pretentious I get when I come on here.
*** If I had to do a top ten Best Theatre Shows of the 21st Century (since you’ve all asked me to do it…), personal preference aside (to an extent), I would go: - The Shakespeare Trilogy – indisputably – profound and insightful Shakespearean interpretations, the brunt-bearer of early wrong-headed criticism of further pioneering gender-blind productions, also class-blind, age-blind, body-blind, race-blind, utterly revisionist and remarkable in their ownership of Shakespeare, a bold use of time never seen before or since, sensitive and provocative studies into our justice system, a vital collaboration with Clean Break, Harriet Walter storming away heading an extraordinary committed cast, transmitted on the BBC, free for under-25s, blisteringly good productions. Egalitarian in every way, brilliant in every way. New plays framed around Shakespeare, or revivals finding the newness therein? Genius and game-changing either way. This will always be one of the most special experiences, theatrical or not, of my life.
- Hamilton
- A View from the Bridge
- Oresteia
- Jerusalem
- The Encounter or mebbe an earlier Complicite that was more influential but bugger I loved this one
- London Road
- The Jungle (as an umbrella for David Lan’s political and theatrical fire)
- Black Watch, with Harry Potter as a footnote
We Will Rock You A Doll’s House would be my personal choice – but thinking more broadly than my tastes, I’m torn at to what takes the last spot
So, what deserves the tenth place? Something mainstream, important, and door-opening, like Marianne Elliott’s War Horse, or Marianne Elliott’s Curious Incident? Fleabag, a fine fringe show that became a global phenomenon, including back on stage – or The Play that Goes Wrong or the spectacular Six for similar reasons? His Dark Materials, which really pioneered the best of Hytner’s hugely influential NT (and what a cast!), or Harry Potter reinvigorating/ruining that franchise? Should we, too, include the Twitter-trending Iliad? The Globe-to-Globe festival then the Globe-to-Globe Hamlet? Three Kingdoms more for the discourse it provoked? NT Connections more for the doors they open? A show like Queens of Syria, or Belarus Free Theatre, or театр.doc, putting unbearable distant real lives within our world? BP or not BP taking to the stage, grassroots protest theatre that HAS made a difference? What about We’re Here Because We’re Here? The Michael Sheen Passion? The 2012 Opening Ceremony? All of these deserve focus. But let’s pick A Doll’s House because I love it.
I’m also a wee bit tempted by Phedre, simply by virtue of being the first NT Live. However, I think A View from the Bridge was SO influential because it got onto the NT Live, so its inclusion is cap-doffing to the influence and importance of global transmission (and why it beats Roman Tragedies). It’s arguable too that Oresteia was a great beginning but Hamlet found the biggest audience – Oresteia’s shocking newness has the edge though.
My list is also weighted towards the last ten years, because I’m only ten years old, although I do also think that’s because that’s when fringier theatre got more outwards-looking and the West End more daring, and the influence of David Lan and Louise Jeffreys trickled down. It’s also a bit biased against shows I was scared of like Punchdrunk despite their influence. There are pplenty of great shows I simply missed, or maybe even forgot. It also breaks my heart to exclude a show like Fun Home or Nell Gwynn or Lungs (thus far) because they didn’t have that breadth of influence. I’d comfortably concede to changes. I’d not concede the top three, however. Those are all extraordinary theatre, and extraordinarily influential.
Whilst I do think that’s a half-decent list, I’m not sure that’s true to everyone. What show brought most people into the theatre? What show really changed theatre? What show transcended its theatre? Far more people were affected by We Will Rock You – sh*te but popular – than Fun Home – magisterial but largely overlooked. Break my heart though it does, one almost would have to choose We Will Rock You over Fun Home or London Road and maybe even Hamilton as with bums-on-seats the biggest – thus, arguably, best – musical since 2000. Hmmm.
In short, all lists are arbitrary, but mine’s better.
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Post by kathryn on Sept 18, 2019 11:22:03 GMT
All lists are subjective. This subjective list is part of a series, all picked by Gruan critics. They have individual follow-up articles/interviews with the ‘winners’. You can assume they are referring to the press night performance they saw in all of the performance-based lists, and that no-one who they couldn’t do a follow-up on was going to win.
It’s a puff feature designed to get engagement - and obviously an absurd exercise given that we are less than 20 years into the century to declare anything ‘the best’.
Don’t overthink it.
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Post by tmesis on Sept 18, 2019 14:22:54 GMT
I've managed to see 13 of the listed plays.
Of these my absolute favourite was Pitmen Painters and I would certainly put it higher than 44th. I also think it's high time it was revived.
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Post by jaqs on Sept 18, 2019 14:27:33 GMT
Mr Burns was certainly memorable but I’m not sure it was good. Certainly not at the expense of many of the terrific musicals omitted.
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