290 posts
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Post by southstreet on Jun 12, 2022 19:00:16 GMT
I assume he meant ‘If Only’ which he wrote for Whistle Down the Wind!
And that letter was super tone deaf but a fitting end to this run. Couldn’t just have a nice, non-drama ending. 🤣
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2,242 posts
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Post by richey on Jun 12, 2022 19:08:21 GMT
Whatever he meant by ‘costly mistake’ that schmuck of a director should have had the sense and bravery to not read that part of the letter out. He just managed to make himself look like a prize fool along with his boss. And what was the reference to writing a song with Jim Steinman about? I have no idea what relevance that had. None of the trouble on this production from whichever side should have been played out in public. What a truly dreadfully unkind and unprofessional saga all the backstage politics has been in the name of what was supposed to be lighthearted entertainment. Yes the Jim Steinman reference was to the song "If Only " from WDTW |
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Post by scarpia on Jun 12, 2022 19:29:55 GMT
I am not getting sued and risking employment over this mess and the drama. Key people within the production have made themselves unemployable. Would be thrilled if this referred to Mr Connor never again giving barely passable and uninspired staging that hideously exposes every flaw possible and simply acquiescing to each demand of his boss "directing" a West End show; but alas, I don't think that's what you meant by that. No mention of Broadway, I think we can assume that's off... Yeah, I assumed the same from the 'This isn't the end of Cinderella, at least I hope it isn't' bit... If ALW repeatedly goes on about Broadway, the general rule of thumb is it isn't going to happen. He just repeats it in the hope he'll get a producer and investment...until it becomes clear to him that there is no interest. Cf. Paint Never Dries. Hence my scepticism about this supposed transfer from the outset. Part of me wants to see it go just to see the reactions of the New York audience to this. They definitely made the right call not having ALW there. It was nice for that moment to be more focused on the cast (even if one or two of them have said some stupid things, the majority seem like decent people now out of a job). I think the feeling from the audience definitely suggested they would happily have booed ALW in person and I really don't know how that would've gone down. Better to avoid that. Sending the letter wasn't a smart move either, though. With everything that has happened to date, I don't think it was on the cards that ALW was going to go. He never does if he's ballsed up. He was too much of a coward to take the stage of Her Majesty's when the reduced Phantom opened last year, leaving Cameron to take the stage alone, even though he was actually there backstage...presumably because taking the stage of a clearly altered show would look odd after repeatedly promising audiences that the original wasn't going anywhere and would be back "in its entirety". (Of course, he took to the stage of the Majestic in New York with Cameron and then waxed lyrical at having Hal's production and a 28-piece orchestra). Same thing happened with the various closures of the backstage-drama-plagued Sunset. Poor content, poorly produced, poor cast - only those with the lowest bar of taste will miss this mess. Listening to that exit music again for the first time since being at the Gillian Lynne reminded me how tacky the arrangements sound. ALW likes to mention in interviews how the look of the show should gel with the music. Well that certainly happened here - to go with the tacky canto-style flats, we have really awful keyboard synths that sound worse than MIDI karaoke backing tracks. How was any of this appropriate for a big West End show? And as for the 'I promise you we'd still be here if XYZ' in the letter, unlikely. But ALW's promises these days mean as much as Boris Johnson's. |
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Post by max on Jun 12, 2022 19:43:01 GMT
A new low for ALW. But there regularly seems to be a new low for him lately. Is he on a self destruction course? This is what I don't understand. A couple of years ago I spoke to someone who knows Tim Rice very well. They were amused at how hard both ALW and Tim Rice were going for their legacies - almost in competition. Well, ALW had an upbeat hit with 'School Of Rock' which focused on young people and music, an apparently happy company in New York with a great lead and company leader, and very good reviews (rare for him on Broadway). Success too in London. Pandemic a PR triumph for ALW with all his Twitter and even Tiktok content. Then........this. What happened? It's as if he's gone out of his way to trash his own reputation. However badly people in the company may have behaved, it's sadly true that just demanding people work to contract isn't always enough - there's people management to do. I've been a manager and haven't liked the way I've sometimes cajoled and smoothed situations; but I judged the people involved were likely to cause more trouble beyond any outward show of falling into line. So here's the Norma Desmond moment: perhaps ALW has finally met a generation who don't value him so much that they care enough to put up with things (even when they're in the wrong). The mystique is gone, and he's just an ordinary manager like I was. |
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Post by mrbarnaby on Jun 12, 2022 20:18:13 GMT
I didn’t notice any of the cast act badly in that video- just look mainly mortified/over it
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7,054 posts
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Post by Jon on Jun 12, 2022 20:19:10 GMT
I suppose with School of Rock, the bulk of the cast were kids who are less likely to cause issues than young adults.
I think ALW didn't help himself going to the media when things weren't going his way.
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367 posts
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Post by Jonnyboy on Jun 12, 2022 20:19:19 GMT
Isn’t ALW referring to the timing around covid as a costly mistake, not the production itself? I just can’t believe he’s being deliberately disrespectful. It’s poor wording, surely?
With all the reports of other players being problematic, I find it hard to take sides here. So instead I’ll continue to listen to the cast recording, which I’m rather enjoying.
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367 posts
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Post by Jonnyboy on Jun 12, 2022 20:20:54 GMT
I didn’t notice any of the cast act badly in that video- just look mainly mortified/over it See I think an outsider wouldn’t even think this. We only see them as looking mortified because we know what’s gone on. It’s hard to know how much we’re looking for what we expect to see, rather than what we actually see. |
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Post by jacob on Jun 12, 2022 20:32:10 GMT
I didn’t notice any of the cast act badly in that video- just look mainly mortified/over it See I think an outsider wouldn’t even think this. We only see them as looking mortified because we know what’s gone on. It’s hard to know how much we’re looking for what we expect to see, rather than what we actually see. I still think they’re on about Lauren though, I can’t see / hear her “screeching “ .. |
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Post by sophie92 on Jun 12, 2022 20:34:30 GMT
See I think an outsider wouldn’t even think this. We only see them as looking mortified because we know what’s gone on. It’s hard to know how much we’re looking for what we expect to see, rather than what we actually see. I still think they’re on about Lauren though, I can’t see / hear her “screeching “ .. I’ve seen a couple of videos that have her in shot at the “costly mistake” part. She laughed quite audibly, most likely in disbelief at that choice of phrase, and I personally don’t think that’s an unjustified reaction. |
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Post by ronnette on Jun 12, 2022 20:47:35 GMT
Assume there’s plenty of beef between Carrie and LC as she didn’t clap him nor allowed her face to crack a smile at him.
Inthenose obv has the dirt and refuses to spill….which in the past when mother board members have hinted at knowing the goss has got them short shrift….
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362 posts
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Post by JJShaw on Jun 12, 2022 21:06:52 GMT
Good lord that speech and letter were cringy and awkward to watch, can't imagine what it was like in person. No warmth or likeability coming from him he looked uncomfortable on a stage, which is fair if you're a director not an actor but come on now this was just painful, nevermind the words he was saying, both from himself and the letter, were just so bad.
I will say my agreement re: Rodney's behavior, self-indulgent, making yourself a victim more than necessary, and obnoxious riffs outside of a concert are the worst thing anyone can do and says an awful lot about you as a person i feel.
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Post by chernjam on Jun 12, 2022 21:10:58 GMT
Isn’t ALW referring to the timing around covid as a costly mistake, not the production itself? I just can’t believe he’s being deliberately disrespectful. It’s poor wording, surely? With all the reports of other players being problematic, I find it hard to take sides here. So instead I’ll continue to listen to the cast recording, which I’m rather enjoying. Some random thoughts: - This audience was obviously a cast-supportive final audience - (Carrie fans, etc.) more so than Cinderella fans. The fact that the boos started at ALW's name kind of made that obvious. - ALW not being there, well, the TONY awards are tonight in NY - it will be interesting to see if he's here for them which could explain his absence - the "If Only" reference, to me didn't come across the way it was intended. ALW is indeed an older man with a mindset (as someone mentioned) on his legacy as one tends to do as they come to this later part of life. And he was clearly jazzed and worked pretty damn hard during some crazy unprecedented times on this project. Why that's the case is subjective. For example, I personally enjoy the score of Cinderella (and never listen to school of rock at all, nor had any interest in ever seeing it)... so I'm sure for him, a lot of that COVID stuff was a far bigger stress that in hindsight caused more stress, tension and loss of focus creatively then can be handled with a new project (not to mention financially) That's just a reality, whether it's politically correct to name that as a reason or not. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 12, 2022 21:14:24 GMT
He can't help himself. He could have stayed silent. But he chose to speak out again. To be expected. |
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Post by Jon on Jun 12, 2022 21:17:04 GMT
ALW always has a reason why a show doesn't work out. I suspect even if the show had support from the CRF, it still would have closed either at the same time or limped along until September.
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Post by cezbear on Jun 12, 2022 21:22:00 GMT
Classic Rodders. Spotted another cast member encouraging more boos. The drama continues right to the very end but it shouldn't overshadow what was really a phenomenal final performance - the cast gave it their all and then some (I mean, it definitely will overshadow it. But that's a shame).
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Post by fiyerorocher on Jun 12, 2022 21:23:09 GMT
Assume there’s plenty of beef between Carrie and LC as she didn’t clap him nor allowed her face to crack a smile at him. Didn't get that vibe at all?? He singled her out as being a great person to lead the cast. I imagine the whole bows/speech was very emotional and many parts of it very awkward, so I'm not sure this is a fair assumption. |
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Post by stagebyte on Jun 12, 2022 21:29:29 GMT
Isn’t ALW referring to the timing around covid as a costly mistake, not the production itself? I just can’t believe he’s being deliberately disrespectful. It’s poor wording, surely? With all the reports of other players being problematic, I find it hard to take sides here. So instead I’ll continue to listen to the cast recording, which I’m rather enjoying. Some random thoughts: - This audience was obviously a cast-supportive final audience - (Carrie fans, etc.) more so than Cinderella fans. The fact that the boos started at ALW's name kind of made that obvious. - ALW not being there, well, the TONY awards are tonight in NY - it will be interesting to see if he's here for them which could explain his absence - the "If Only" reference, to me didn't come across the way it was intended. ALW is indeed an older man with a mindset (as someone mentioned) on his legacy as one tends to do as they come to this later part of life. And he was clearly jazzed and worked pretty damn hard during some crazy unprecedented times on this project. Why that's the case is subjective. For example, I personally enjoy the score of Cinderella (and never listen to school of rock at all, nor had any interest in ever seeing it)... so I'm sure for him, a lot of that COVID stuff was a far bigger stress that in hindsight caused more stress, tension and loss of focus creatively then can be handled with a new project (not to mention financially) That's just a reality, whether it's politically correct to name that as a reason or not. I think this is correct. Also the costly mistake clearly isn’t directed at the cast. I think together with Covid etc it cost him a pretty penny. This is show business after all. He is very very socially awkward. I think it’s fairly obvious in every interview we see. Having spoken to him the lack of eye contact and awkward demeanour and outspokenness hints to me of something else. |
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Post by stagebyte on Jun 12, 2022 21:41:54 GMT
Classic Rodders. Spotted another cast member encouraging more boos. The drama continues right to the very end but it shouldn't overshadow what was really a phenomenal final performance - the cast gave it their all and then some (I mean, it definitely will overshadow it. But that's a shame). There’s quite a few videos circulating with Rodney’s mate Tobias encouraging the boos |
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Post by max on Jun 12, 2022 21:42:07 GMT
I suppose with School of Rock, the bulk of the cast were kids who are less likely to cause issues than young adults. I think ALW didn't help himself going to the media when things weren't going his way. I was thinking more of 'Give Up Your Dreams' being cut in previews (a shame in my view). Must have been difficult for Mamie Parris to lose her one song; but a year or so later she was Grizabella on Broadway, so all seems to be without all-out trauma there. Director Laurence Connor, and same choreographer. |
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Post by inthenose on Jun 12, 2022 21:48:14 GMT
I am not getting sued and risking employment over this mess and the drama. Key people within the production have made themselves unemployable. Would be thrilled if this referred to Mr Connor never again giving barely passable and uninspired staging that hideously exposes every flaw possible and simply acquiescing to each demand of his boss "directing" a West End show; but alas, I don't think that's what you meant by that. Yeah, I assumed the same from the 'This isn't the end of Cinderella, at least I hope it isn't' bit... If ALW repeatedly goes on about Broadway, the general rule of thumb is it isn't going to happen. He just repeats it in the hope he'll get a producer and investment...until it becomes clear to him that there is no interest. Cf. Paint Never Dries. Hence my scepticism about this supposed transfer from the outset. Part of me wants to see it go just to see the reactions of the New York audience to this. They definitely made the right call not having ALW there. It was nice for that moment to be more focused on the cast (even if one or two of them have said some stupid things, the majority seem like decent people now out of a job). I think the feeling from the audience definitely suggested they would happily have booed ALW in person and I really don't know how that would've gone down. Better to avoid that. Sending the letter wasn't a smart move either, though. With everything that has happened to date, I don't think it was on the cards that ALW was going to go. He never does if he's ballsed up. He was too much of a coward to take the stage of Her Majesty's when the reduced Phantom opened last year, leaving Cameron to take the stage alone, even though he was actually there backstage...presumably because taking the stage of a clearly altered show would look odd after repeatedly promising audiences that the original wasn't going anywhere and would be back "in its entirety". (Of course, he took to the stage of the Majestic in New York with Cameron and then waxed lyrical at having Hal's production and a 28-piece orchestra). Same thing happened with the various closures of the backstage-drama-plagued Sunset. Poor content, poorly produced, poor cast - only those with the lowest bar of taste will miss this mess. Listening to that exit music again for the first time since being at the Gillian Lynne reminded me how tacky the arrangements sound. ALW likes to mention in interviews how the look of the show should gel with the music. Well that certainly happened here - to go with the tacky canto-style flats, we have really awful keyboard synths that sound worse than MIDI karaoke backing tracks. How was any of this appropriate for a big West End show? And as for the 'I promise you we'd still be here if XYZ' in the letter, unlikely. But ALW's promises these days mean as much as Boris Johnson's. The thing is Laurence is a very nice man. That does not a good Director make |
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Post by lonlad on Jun 12, 2022 21:52:01 GMT
Laurence Connor's deliberately cryptic reference could be an allusion to LW dealing with the unfolding tragedy within the composer's family, and rightly so. That's not for LC (or anyone else) to discuss.
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Post by musicbox on Jun 12, 2022 21:54:00 GMT
I ended up having a chat with Carrie outside the theatre and then went for dinner after the show today, so have quite a delayed but in depth and lengthy overview, for anyone who's interested - First of all, I went all fancy today and recorded most of the bows and the entire speech by Laurence Connor in 4K - The quality is amazing and some of the cast's face's/reactions are priceless (Look specifically at Carrie during the 'Thanks for your support...' part of Andrew's letter). Feel free to download this and share or upload to YouTube or whatever, no need to ask permission or credit me - we.tl/t-48P7lgYcZPFirst of all, as I mentioned earlier Joel Montague was in the foyer taking photo requests from a lot of Carrie fans when I first got there, if I didn't know better I would've thought he was in the cast! I literally bumped into him about 20 times throughout the course of the day in the foyer, the auditorium and outside but never spoke to him or asked for a photo. I assume he was there for some emotional support for Carrie as it was a big day, and was with her mum Debbie. The house was totally sold out and there was a really nice, excited vibe in the room from the start. It was a great audience, full of genuine theatre fans and no annoying kids or people causing disruptions. I was sat in row E of the stalls, so had a great view and generally I'd say it was my favourite trip to the show in those regards. I'm going to get him out of the way in the beginning because frankly I'm bored of him and never want to speak about him again after this - Rodney Vubya attempted early on to steal the attention by doing a sl*t drop dance move when he did his 'colourful ribbons' part at the start - If you're not acquainted with that dance move then google it, but I'd suggest not bothering. It was totally inappropriate, cringe worthy and received no reaction from the audience who as majority theatre fans are probably as sick of his antics as I am. Shortly after this, his one task was to hold the 'Belleville market' sign in the ensemble, but he made such a meal of it and jumped in front of the rest of the ensemble, to the point where fellow cast member Matthieu grabbed his arm and pulled him back to the correct place - His face was a total picture. I'm not sure if this was enough to curb his 'over enthusiasm' or if someone said something to him backstage, but he kind of faded into the background for the rest of the show. Anyway, that's the last I'll mention him on this board, as to be honest I'm not sure what his MT career holds for him after his antics during this contract. Rebecca Trehearn received a huge applause when she arrived, which she totally deserved as she's been consistently brilliant throughout the run and has been ill recently. Carrie also received a rapturous applause when she first came out that lasted for about a minute, she looked genuinely overwhelmed. I'm not sure if this spurred her on, but she was ON FIRE today! I've seen her in this role quite a few times now, but this was by far the best I've ever seen her perform. Everything was on point from vocals, to energy, to her overall acting. I know I've been quite critical as a fellow vocalist about not feeling that Carrie has been taking proper care of her voice during this run, and she has been hoarse and strained on more than one occasion that I've seen the show, but her voice was genuinely perfect today - I honestly feel like if she had performed at this level for the entire run she would've received the best reviews of her career! The real star of the show though was by far Victoria Hamilton-Barritt. I always feel this way, but today she was the notable star and changed her lines a little bit to respond to the constant applause she was receiving, also milking some of her gestures such as walking up to Carrie and rubbing her tongue with her finger for about 30 seconds in her face during their first scene together - it sounds strange in writing, but trust me it was HILARIOUS in person. She constantly broke the fourth wall with the audience and at one point told us all to shut up so that the show didn't run over, she was just hilarious throughout! Ivano was also great today and received the biggest applause and a standing ovation that felt like it lasted forever after 'Lonely Me...', only stopped by the orchestra who were probably told to keep things moving. He couldn't contain his emotions and burst into happy tears as he was going into the wings, and honestly he deserved every second of it. The rest of the show was pretty standard stuff, so I'll skip to the speech... I feel that the video kind of speaks for itself, but I have so many thoughts. First of all, I feel that it was so disrespectful for ALW to not even show up and was a little shocked when Laurence was announced. The letter of course was just something else and as soon as Andrew's name was mentioned the crowd started booing (I didn't because I feel that there is much more to the story and didn't want to get involved). He's a genius, but I genuinely feel that Andy is a narcissist after hearing his words today, the way he turned himself into the victim of the situation and had the audacity to refer to the production as an 'expensive mistake' was almost like a Little Britain sketch and a classic narcissist response. Laurence's brown nosing was also embarrassing and his 'be nice' statement went down like a lead balloon. I don't have any knowledge on this, but judging by her face I also got the impression that Carrie isn't his biggest fan. I have to say though that I was really surprised at Lauren Byrne today, her behaviour during the speech was really unprofessional and I just hope that for her sake it's not picked up by anyone who signs the contracts if you now what I'm saying, because she's amazingly talented and should have a huge career ahead of her in MT. I've read some members doubt her screeching, but trust me I was standing in front of her when she did it and it was very cringeworthy - the rest of the cast were clearly embarrassed for her and you could tell by her face that she instantly regretted it. I got chatting to some folks waiting on Carrie outside of the theatre and they all shared the same sentiments - we all really like her and feel that she's above her behaviour today, but it was obviously an emotional day for her and hopefully she learns from this. Overall the actual show and bows felt like a hugely positive love in, that was completely shattered by Andrew's speech and the lights came up with a bitter vibe in the air - such a shame! I don't know what came over me, but I was so impressed with Carrie today that I waited around 20 minutes for her outside of the theatre as I wanted to chat to her (As well as about 200 others, a que that went all the way around to the back of the neighbouring comedy club!) I've seen Carrie in 'passing' many times, but I've never actually spoken to her and was intrigued to see what she was like. She was absolutely lovely and we took a photo together, I really can't fault her in any way and wish her all the best for her next career move. To end my dissertation, while we were waiting for Carrie, two removal vans drew up outside the theatre and proceeded to go in to remove the set, around 20 minutes after the show ended...if that's not all you need to know about how ALW feels about this show, then I'm not sure what is. |
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Post by MusicalTalk on Jun 12, 2022 21:55:07 GMT
The issue is Laurence can't say no to ALW - as he produces the show, owns the theatre and has written the music. If ALW presents a song that's derivative, bland, banal or something we've heard before - he can't exactly tell him to go back to the drawing board with it like Hal Prince would, for example. Laurence probably has the most shows on in the west end of any director - but they're mostly re-hashes... good on him though, if he's found his niche. I didn't mind the direction of School of Rock.
ALW Just needs someone to tell him to re-write material at times - as opposed to him messing around with his music team and probably writing down the first thing that comes into his head and sending it off to have lyrics forced into the melody.
As usual ALW has blamed the failure of a show on everything apart from his ability to write a strong score. Covid, cast, government, design, direction - whatever... it's never the fact that his music is weak.
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Post by shady23 on Jun 12, 2022 22:00:37 GMT
Some of the stuff I am reading in this thread is baffling really.
The cast don't like each other...
Those there are fans of the cast not the show...
As for this
Theatre snobbery at its very finest.
For a show so many of you claim to not care about you seem to spend an awful lot of time talking about it.
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