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Post by Oliver on Nov 24, 2021 23:39:46 GMT
Look. I know this probably won't make any difference and I'm wasting my time. But I'd really love to see less of the crowing at the possibility of the show not doing well. You don't like it fine, but plenty do. And more importantly: these are people's jobs. For many they are living their dream, some of the cast are in their first west end roles. Gloating at any possible misfortune is just petty and unfair. And yes ALW has clearly been an idiot and disrespectful, and yes CHF has most likely brought all this about and is continuing to make it worse with every liked tweet. We don't all need to pile on though. I've seen what I felt were pile ons in this place, and have spoken up - but I don't see one here really. ALW has gone onto BBC Radio 4 and told potential audiences that he reckons sometimes his 'Cinderella' cast don't give it their all. He's piled on. Also - I think this does have a material effect on the West End & Broadway transfer success/failure, because HE has made it a subject of speculation, that the show is volatile. He's pinned that on the cast, but investors, critics, and audiences in New York will now be attuned to looking at whether the cast really were the problem. As a frothy night out, I'm not sure there ever was a big problem. I've been on here many times citing ecstatic tweets from audience members. I read them daily. I think it's mainly long standing ALW fans on here (rather than his serial detractors) who were disappointed (even angry) the standard wasn't higher. I don't want to insult other people's favourite shows on here, but I see other similarly commercial work getting what feels like a free pass (or at least an easier ride). BUT he has now created a situation where it will need to be BRILLIANT to counteract the negative spotlight and scepticism that he is most responsible for casting onto it. That may now prove too much to get it to Broadway. Is it the Front Row BBC interview you are referring to here? I listened to that interview and he never said they weren't giving it their all. He didn't actually say what he was referring to but it was more likely the cast absences. Also, he was responding to a question that he was asked, that's not 'piling on'. |
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Post by cezbear on Nov 24, 2021 23:40:32 GMT
Look. I know this probably won't make any difference and I'm wasting my time. But I'd really love to see less of the crowing at the possibility of the show not doing well. You don't like it fine, but plenty do. And more importantly: these are people's jobs. For many they are living their dream, some of the cast are in their first west end roles. Gloating at any possible misfortune is just petty and unfair. And yes ALW has clearly been an idiot and disrespectful, and yes CHF has most likely brought all this about and is continuing to make it worse with every liked tweet. We don't all need to pile on though. I've seen what I felt were pile ons in this place, and have spoken up - but I don't see one here really. ALW has gone onto BBC Radio 4 and told potential audiences that he reckons sometimes his 'Cinderella' cast don't give it their all. He's piled on. Also - I think this does have a material effect on the West End & Broadway transfer success/failure, because HE has made it a subject of speculation, that the show is volatile. He's pinned that on the cast, but investors, critics, and audiences in New York will now be attuned to looking at whether the cast really were the problem. As a frothy night out, I'm not sure there ever was a big problem. I've been on here many times citing ecstatic tweets from audience members. I read them daily. I think it's mainly long standing ALW fans on here (rather than his serial detractors) who were disappointed (even angry) the standard wasn't higher. I don't want to insult other people's favourite shows on here, but I see other similarly commercial work getting what feels like a free pass (or at least an easier ride). BUT he has now created a situation where it will need to be BRILLIANT to counteract the negative spotlight and scepticism that he is most responsible for casting onto it. That may now prove too much to get it to Broadway. Oh I agree with a lot of that. Though I must have missed what he said on radio 4, did he really say they don't always give it their all? I can't speak to Carrie as I deliberately book to avoid her but I have seen the show multiple times and never have I thought anyone wasn't giving it their absolute all. And I've seen many shows where people have been phoning it in. |
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Post by scarpia on Nov 24, 2021 23:46:27 GMT
I began as an advocate for this show. Despite its obvious flaws, I preferred to focus on the post-lockdown positives of new theatre. To the point where you called it "perfect" and shot down anyone with (legitimate) criticisms as whinging doom mongers who actually wanted to fail? Hmm. I've given up wondering whether RUG/ALW, for all the ££££ they spend on PR (they hired 3 PR teams no less for Paint Never Dries and look where that got them), just don't get how to generate a positive buzz. They can't seem to do it on any show. Not even crowd-pleasers like Phantom...to this day I am seeing negative comments because of their decision to replace the show with the scaled-down version but maybe if they'd been upfront from the outset this wouldn't have happened. ALW's constant preponderance for hype does not work if the product does not meet that hype, and then his constant self-contradictions make everything worse. As for CHF et al...well, maybe RUG will think twice about hiring for social media influence in the future. |
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Post by max on Nov 24, 2021 23:50:13 GMT
He was asked about claims he'd berated the cast, and said:
“What I was saying to everybody is, the younger cast don’t really realise all the time [that] we are a service industry, and nobody has a right to be on the stage. I don’t have a right to have my musicals in the theatre,” he said, adding: “What we have to do is try to give the best performances possible. All I was saying is, that is what we have to do and the cast we have at Cinderella are really wonderful and are well capable of doing that. But this has been wildly exaggerated.”
Now, there's nothing terrible in there... Apart from the fact he shared publicly that he ever needed to say something to the cast. He's pointing at the smoke from the fire he says is "wildly exaggerated".
Lesson: if you think some of your cast are phoning it in; don't phone in your dressing down.
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Post by Oliver on Nov 24, 2021 23:54:38 GMT
Your complaint was about a plot point: the Fairy Godmother's warning to Cinderella to be home by midnight and there being no suitable pay-off for that in act 2. I was pointing out that this is in fact the fault of the book writer and not the lyricist. You are conflating one with the other. With regard to the lyrics above, I like these, especially "just like that goddess from Greece, you know, who launched all the ships". I especially like the casual throwaway "you know" which is most effective here. The last line is great, "disappear me", things don't always need to make literal sense or conform to strict grammatical rules. It's a case of when and how. Oliver, i applaud the way you try and claim someone was talking about something else, when you don't have a good response to the initial thread, something you have done a few times. You know I was talking about the lyrics. And once again, you are making a statement like you know it all. You are truely deluded. It must be nice to be that oblivious sometimes. Your criticism of the lyrics in your initial post concerned that plot point in particular - the Fairy Godmothers warning to Cinderella and the lack of a satisfying resolution to the end of act one climax. I was simply making the point that this is the fault of the book writer, not the lyricist. |
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Post by max on Nov 24, 2021 23:55:12 GMT
I've seen what I felt were pile ons in this place, and have spoken up - but I don't see one here really. ALW has gone onto BBC Radio 4 and told potential audiences that he reckons sometimes his 'Cinderella' cast don't give it their all. He's piled on. Also - I think this does have a material effect on the West End & Broadway transfer success/failure, because HE has made it a subject of speculation, that the show is volatile. He's pinned that on the cast, but investors, critics, and audiences in New York will now be attuned to looking at whether the cast really were the problem. As a frothy night out, I'm not sure there ever was a big problem. I've been on here many times citing ecstatic tweets from audience members. I read them daily. I think it's mainly long standing ALW fans on here (rather than his serial detractors) who were disappointed (even angry) the standard wasn't higher. I don't want to insult other people's favourite shows on here, but I see other similarly commercial work getting what feels like a free pass (or at least an easier ride). BUT he has now created a situation where it will need to be BRILLIANT to counteract the negative spotlight and scepticism that he is most responsible for casting onto it. That may now prove too much to get it to Broadway. Oh I agree with a lot of that. Though I must have missed what he said on radio 4, did he really say they don't always give it their all? I can't speak to Carrie as I deliberately book to avoid her but I have seen the show multiple times and never have I thought anyone wasn't giving it their absolute all. And I've seen many shows where people have been phoning it in. I meant to Quote you to connect the thoughts, but you can see what he said in my post above this. |
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Post by ceebee on Nov 24, 2021 23:56:28 GMT
I began as an advocate for this show. Despite its obvious flaws, I preferred to focus on the post-lockdown positives of new theatre. To the point where you called it "perfect" and shot down anyone with (legitimate) criticisms as whinging doom mongers who actually wanted to fail? Hmm. I've given up wondering whether RUG/ALW, for all the ££££ they spend on PR (they hired 3 PR teams no less for Paint Never Dries and look where that got them), just don't get how to generate a positive buzz. They can't seem to do it on any show. Not even crowd-pleasers like Phantom...to this day I am seeing negative comments because of their decision to replace the show with the scaled-down version but maybe if they'd been upfront from the outset this wouldn't have happened. ALW's constant preponderance for hype does not work if the product does not meet that hype, and then his constant self-contradictions make everything worse. As for CHF et al...well, maybe RUG will think twice about hiring for social media influence in the future. Hmmm, Carpia. Still banging on about Phantom... |
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Post by Jon on Nov 24, 2021 23:58:58 GMT
I've given up wondering whether RUG/ALW, for all the ££££ they spend on PR (they hired 3 PR teams no less for Paint Never Dries and look where that got them), just don't get how to generate a positive buzz. They can't seem to do it on any show. Not even crowd-pleasers like Phantom...to this day I am seeing negative comments because of their decision to replace the show with the scaled-down version but maybe if they'd been upfront from the outset this wouldn't have happened. ALW's constant preponderance for hype does not work if the product does not meet that hype, and then his constant self-contradictions make everything worse. They really need to use ALW less in interviews, it never ends particularly well. |
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Post by Stephen on Nov 25, 2021 0:25:51 GMT
Saw this tonight. Refreshingly full theatre and, being slightly nervous on my first theatre visit since pre-covid, I was glad that the air felt so fresh and ventilated inside the auditorium. Nice to see the new seats which look great; most front of house areas remain untouched since pre-renovation though. As for the show it was a pleasant and inoffensive first production to see after the years we have had. It plodded along nicely with a few particularly funny moments (mainly from the stepmother) The ball at the start of act 2 was a highlight however I spent most of the time watching the theatre during the first ten minutes of act 2 and not the show! {Spoiler - click to view}
It was very cool to see the seats and stage revolve which I heard about at the New London years ago. I can imagine this was used in Cats back in the day to stunning effect? Completely transforms the space. So unique.
I found the act 1 finale song to be a mashup of several songs from Love Never Dies. Mainly 'Beauty Underneath' and 'Devil Take the Hindmost'! I don't think that I would return but a nice way to be back in a theatre. |
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Post by max on Nov 25, 2021 0:35:33 GMT
Saw this tonight. Refreshingly full theatre and, being slightly nervous on my first theatre visit since pre-covid, I was glad that the air felt so fresh and ventilated inside the auditorium. Nice to see the new seats which look great; most front of house areas remain untouched since pre-renovation though. As for the show it was a pleasant and inoffensive first production to see after the years we have had. It plodded along nicely with a few particularly funny moments (mainly from the stepmother) The ball at the start of act 2 was a highlight however I spent most of the time watching the theatre during the first ten minutes of act 2 and not the show! {Spoiler - click to view}
It was very cool to see the seats and stage revolve which I heard about at the New London years ago. I can imagine this was used in Cats back in the day to stunning effect? Completely transforms the space. So unique.
I found the act 1 finale song to be a mashup of several songs from Love Never Dies. Mainly 'Beauty Underneath' and 'Devil Take the Hindmost'! I don't think that I would return but a nice way to be back in a theatre. The revolve wasn't that stunning in CATS as it was right at the start. Mainly led to lots of audience asking the ushers pre-show - 'is this my view'! And being reassured, that they were looking at the back of the set, but that it would change. So it's much more integrated into a transformative story moment in 'Cinderella'. With CATS it did create the enticing mystery of the warning in theatre listings (remember when national newspapers used to carry those?): "Latecomers will not be me admitted whilst the auditorium is in motion". Good you enjoyed your return to theatre tonight. |
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Post by thelord7 on Nov 25, 2021 1:51:13 GMT
"The synthesis of the opera": Actors dissatisfied with their work can be replaced. But it is not possible to replace Andrew Lloyd Webber.People might not like him. But to deny what this man has done for Musical Theatre in his career would be biased. Even if all this noise comes from a moody digital influencer.
Don't cry for me Cinderella... 😂😂😂😂
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Post by inthenose on Nov 25, 2021 3:16:52 GMT
Oh wow you really do love to misinterpret what people say to suit your blind love of ALW. And hypocritical to the extreme with your comments about objective assessment...! No-one is beyond appropriate criticism, but publicly insulting the cast of your production is immature, inappropriate and just plain rude. He didn't do it publicly, this was leaked to the popular press who then blew it out of all proportion. Well, you started by absolutely denying it ever happened, I am sorry but credibility is a thing and your posts are so partisan that it is quite hard to take anything you say seriously, even though you do make some fair points at times. |
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Post by inthenose on Nov 25, 2021 3:20:38 GMT
I began as an advocate for this show. Despite its obvious flaws, I preferred to focus on the post-lockdown positives of new theatre. To the point where you called it "perfect" and shot down anyone with (legitimate) criticisms as whinging doom mongers who actually wanted to fail? Hmm. In fairness, he has apologised for his behaviour with regards to that and has learned from it. Time to move on. |
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Post by chernjam on Nov 25, 2021 6:07:46 GMT
Ok - having caught up on all the posts now, I'm a bit surprised that most of the opinions come down that CHF is in the right and ALW is in the wrong here. Reading his interview, the actual quotes attributed to him don't sound bad or out of form. The fact that the cast took some critiques and had a melt down about it is the point. Particularly in a post-COVID show. The entire industry is trying to recover, get back to some sense of normalcy. I get it that everyone's stressed and a bit fried by now, but the same is true for the creative team and producers.
As for the wanna-be-Diva - after her complaining about all that contributed to the mess of her performance with the outdoor thing, whining about having to rehearse, etc., whatever interest I had in seeing her bring this to Broadway is gone.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 25, 2021 7:46:38 GMT
Lauren Byrne and Georgina Castle have waded in with the passive-aggressive tweets/retweets about how wonderful the cast of Cinderella are. I don’t think ALW has disagreed has he? He’s just said your not entitled to a job on the west end stage. This does appear to be all about entitlement… no?
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Post by tom on Nov 25, 2021 8:27:35 GMT
Maybe ALW said more than he’s admitting and some of it was a bit more personal? Would be good to have heard the phone call to the dressing rooms. Surely someone in the cast recorded it?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2021 8:28:32 GMT
Lauren Byrne and Georgina Castle have waded in with the passive-aggressive tweets/retweets about how wonderful the cast of Cinderella are. I don’t think ALW has disagreed has he? He’s just said your not entitled to a job on the west end stage. This does appear to be all about entitlement… no? No. That many people would not be wading in if that were the case. The fact is that ALW admitted publicly that he had given the cast a dressing down. Whether it was fair or whether it was about effort or something else is pretty much irrelevant (though the strength of the reactions from the cast suggests there is more to it than the side ALW is admitting)?, as the impression given from the admission that the conversation happened is that the cast were in the wrong, regardless of what specifically was said. He has basically given the public impression that they are a bunch of naughty children who don't try hard enough for him. That's embarrassing and entirely unnecessary. He brought it on himself by talking about the incident and making it public, so it is only fair that all the cast should defend themselves. At the end of the day ALW is basically untouchable but the cast's reputations are really important for their future careers, so no wonder they are speaking out. |
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 25, 2021 8:41:37 GMT
ALW seems to be on damage control with regards to the article in the Stage - it doesn't look good for him or for the show for everyone to know he criticised his cast in an incredibly tasteless way. So I'd say it's fair to assume that he is not exactly giving the full story there, or telling it the way the cast would if they had the chance.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 25, 2021 8:58:35 GMT
However badly ALW handled it he obviously thinks there’s an issue with the cast. Its his show, he’s entitled to believe that. It’s not unexpected for the cast to take exception, some will know exactly what he’s talking about because they’re involved and be defensive, others who aren’t involved will feel sleighted by the blanket rollocking. Either way what they’re doing wrong is publicising that on social media. Speak to the Director or whoever looks after management of the cast in a day to day basis. Keep it off Twitter.
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Post by stevej678 on Nov 25, 2021 9:42:06 GMT
Whatever the rights and wrongs of ALW’s public comments about Cinderella, it’s interesting to compare Carrie’s histrionics with how another member of the Cinderella cast, Laura Baldwin, conducted herself while at Waitress, maintaining a dignified silence on social media when she was put on sabbatical for eight weeks, while Ashley Roberts took over the role of Dawn, even writing a private good luck note for Ashley ahead of her debut.
There’s a lesson there for anyone on stage at the Gillian Lynne Theatre who thinks it’s fine to get into frequent arguments with their production’s paying customers, who thinks it’s acceptable to make thinly-veiled, passive-aggressive digs at their boss on Twitter and Instagram, and who thinks it’s professional to like or retweet comments from others doing the same.
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Post by cezbear on Nov 25, 2021 9:47:55 GMT
Whatever the rights and wrongs of ALW’s public comments about Cinderella, it’s interesting to compare Carrie’s histrionics with how another member of the Cinderella cast, Laura Baldwin, conducted herself while at Waitress, maintaining a dignified silence on social media when she was put on sabbatical for eight weeks, while Ashley Roberts took over the role of Dawn, even writing a private good luck note for Ashley ahead of her debut. There’s a lesson there for anyone on stage at the Gillian Lynne Theatre who thinks it’s fine to get into frequent arguments with their production’s paying customers, who thinks it’s acceptable to make thinly-veiled, passive-aggressive digs at their boss on Twitter and Instagram, and who thinks it’s professional to like or retweet comments from others doing the same.
Why was Laura put on sabbatical? Agree though, I think there's wrong on both sides but a dignified silence will alway comes over far better than a Twitter strop - EVEN if you were completely in the right.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 25, 2021 9:49:38 GMT
Every professional organisation - particularly where unions are involved - has a grievance process. That is what should be used first and foremost as a conduit for serious complaints/incidents.
The first thought should never be to use social media.
Sure if you have failed to resolve things using official channels then I can understand trying to apply pressure by moving into the public arena.
But twitter should never be the primary way to resolve employment disputes.
Theatre performers might find future contracts being more explicit as to what is permitted in terms of social media activity in the future.
We have seen how social media can end careers in a number of fields. Freedom of expression has limits and I can see things becoming more restrictive for performers going forward as a result of this sort of incident.
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Post by stuartmcd on Nov 25, 2021 9:50:33 GMT
Whatever the rights and wrongs of ALW’s public comments about Cinderella, it’s interesting to compare Carrie’s histrionics with how another member of the Cinderella cast, Laura Baldwin, conducted herself while at Waitress, maintaining a dignified silence on social media when she was put on sabbatical for eight weeks, while Ashley Roberts took over the role of Dawn, even writing a private good luck note for Ashley ahead of her debut. There’s a lesson there for anyone on stage at the Gillian Lynne Theatre who thinks it’s fine to get into frequent arguments with their production’s paying customers, who thinks it’s acceptable to make thinly-veiled, passive-aggressive digs at their boss on Twitter and Instagram, and who thinks it’s professional to like or retweet comments from others doing the same. Yes but I bet they didn’t have Sara Bareilles call the theatre and tell the entire company that they were going to replace Laura with someone the audience would be more interested in seeing. And probably handled it in a more dignified way of actually talking to Laura privately about it and dealing with it like professionals. If ALW or any of the people in charge at Cinderella had a problem with certain people in the cast then that should be dealt with individually. Not called out in front of the whole theatre and certainly not publicly across headlines. Don’t get me wrong I don’t think it looks good for that cast to be retaliating so publicly either. But I fully understand why they’re angry. |
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Post by Oliver on Nov 25, 2021 9:56:04 GMT
He didn't do it publicly, this was leaked to the popular press who then blew it out of all proportion. Well, you started by absolutely denying it ever happened, I am sorry but credibility is a thing and your posts are so partisan that it is quite hard to take anything you say seriously, even though you do make some fair points at times. Who is more credible? Someone who believes a rumour (even if it later turns out to be true) the instant it is reported simply because they dislike the person concerned, or someone who remains sceptical until he feels there is sufficient evidence to warrant belief, then adjusts his views accordingly? |
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 25, 2021 10:03:04 GMT
We also don't really know what the cast have already tried. Everyone who works for that production, works for ALW. It might be that even cast managers etc. can only say so much against him before they end up risking their jobs. ALW has a LOT of power in this situation and the majority of his cast have none. I don't think it's fair to criticise them for using a public platform to express their opinions on the matter when the Stage isn't knocking down their doors for an interview (and even if it were, they probably wouldn't be allowed to give one). Fundamentally their messages on twitter are all of love and mutual support which if they feel they need to express, suggests the atmosphere at Cinderella from higher ups is incredibly toxic. Frankly, everyone in that cast has my sympathies. I've known some terrible bosses in theatre, and often there is a feeling of total helplessness. Good for them for not suffering in silence.
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