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Post by Oliver on Oct 24, 2021 20:07:05 GMT
Yes, I agree it would have been nice to have a larger orchestra in the theatre. However, people on the forum keep confusing sound production with orchestration, two separate things. The musical line intended for, say, a horn to play, remains the same whether it is transcribed for a keyboard or written for an acoustic instrument. The orchestration is the way the parts are written not how they are reproduced. The other thing people ignore is the fact that this show almost certainly had financial constraints imposed upon it, probably in no small measure due to the release date in these uncertain times. For me it was both the orchestration AND the sound production that were bad. The orchestration is too reliant on keyboards and the sound production made even the live instruments (such as the strings) sound fake and lifeless. The whole thing just felt like it ran on click tracks. As for financial constraints, I'm not sure there is merit in presenting a piece poorly in its premiere production as opposed to waiting for the investment to come through. It was their decision to open cold in the West End; they didn't have to. All keyboard parts could simply be transcribed for the acoustic instruments which they represent and the orchestration would remain the same. You can't just keep a production on hold indefinitely, they needed to release the show as soon as possible (or never). There will be a number of factors which would have affected the finances, these things are imposed on the show and beyond the control of the creatives. |
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Post by inthenose on Oct 24, 2021 20:07:36 GMT
How can scarpia's review be "wrong"? I assume you mean you disagree with it, which is fair enough, but someone giving their opinion on the show is exactly what this forum and specifically this thread is about. If they had said things which were factually untrue, again fair enough, but they didn't. Oliver from reading all your replies defending the show on this thread I can appreciate you're a very, very big fan of this show - but even the best shows have their critics and those people are entitled to share their opinions. Incidentally, they made several points which have been echoed consistently throughout the thread, which makes me think there are problems with the show which many people concur with. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2021 20:16:12 GMT
Tonally it was all over the place. Is it pastiche panto, a Wicked/Disney-wannabe, a serious drama about female empowerment…or what? I felt it just didn’t know what it wanted to be and was being pulled in too many directions. A well written review but wrong on so many levels. Why do people think that a musical should only be one thing (quote above), and that if it's not then the writers were somehow at a loss? The range of theatrical styles is one of the features that makes this musical so rich and satisfying, especially as the themes are integrated seamlessly into a near perfect musical tapestry. There are only two songs that I would question tonally in Cinderella, one of which was (thankfully) cut before previews. The Cinderella & Sebastian's farewell exchange is a song, a duet, and I don't feel that this outstays its welcome at all. Cinderella is a through composed show, not a book musical, so its right that themes should reoccur, it's a fundamental part of the musical drama. The orchestrations are exceptional, I can only think you are conflating them with sound production. And why in the hypothetical scenario you mention between director and composer would ALW as composer and musical dramatist not be right to stand his ground over something like that? Is the director the only one with the vision? Rich and satisfying? A petfect musical tapestry? The musical drama? Exceptionall orchestrations?? They are not exceptional. Tunick, Brohn, Koch, Oremus are examples of exceptional. As you said, So wrong on every level. |
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Post by Oliver on Oct 24, 2021 20:16:38 GMT
How can scarpia's review be "wrong"? I assume you mean you disagree with it, which is fair enough, but someone giving their opinion on the show is exactly what this forum and specifically this thread is about. If they had said things which were factually untrue, again fair enough, but they didn't. Oliver from reading all your replies defending the show on this thread I can appreciate you're a very, very big fan of this show - but even the best shows have their critics and those people are entitled to share their opinions. Incidentally, they made several points which have been echoed consistently throughout the thread, which makes me think there are problems with the show which many people concur with. Yes, I see your point. Do you believe these things are always a matter of opinion though? A building is either well constructed or not, wouldn't the same also apply to a musical score? The issue that concerns opinion is whether you actually like it or not. |
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Post by Oliver on Oct 24, 2021 20:19:18 GMT
A well written review but wrong on so many levels. Why do people think that a musical should only be one thing (quote above), and that if it's not then the writers were somehow at a loss? The range of theatrical styles is one of the features that makes this musical so rich and satisfying, especially as the themes are integrated seamlessly into a near perfect musical tapestry. There are only two songs that I would question tonally in Cinderella, one of which was (thankfully) cut before previews. The Cinderella & Sebastian's farewell exchange is a song, a duet, and I don't feel that this outstays its welcome at all. Cinderella is a through composed show, not a book musical, so its right that themes should reoccur, it's a fundamental part of the musical drama. The orchestrations are exceptional, I can only think you are conflating them with sound production. And why in the hypothetical scenario you mention between director and composer would ALW as composer and musical dramatist not be right to stand his ground over something like that? Is the director the only one with the vision? Rich and satisfying? A petfect musical tapestry? The musical drama? Exceptionall orchestrations?? They are not exceptional. Tunick, Brohn, Koch, Oremus are examples of exceptional. As you said, So wrong on every level. Yes, I stand by everything I say, and I am familiar with the orchestrators you mention. You haven't presented an argument, merely an assertion. |
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Post by danb on Oct 24, 2021 20:38:10 GMT
Oliver, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. There are no right or wrongs. If is just a minority one.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2021 21:04:33 GMT
Oliver I was presenting an argument, this isnt a court, just stating my thoughts. But if you want it, the orchestrations are all over the place. There is no distinct sound to the show or the world of Belleville, some songs are much richer and fuller sounding and some sound like 1 man on Bontempi keyboard. The emotions they are trying to convey in the songs are not reflected in the orchestrations. There can not be a huge swell of sound/feeling with 7 people in the band. The pre-programmed synths are no replacement for the real thing. There is very little cohesion in the orchestrations to hold it all togethwr. ALW barely has financial constraints.
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Post by h86 on Oct 24, 2021 21:18:04 GMT
This musical is ok…. There are some really poor things in it - the set design terrible it looks very amateur, not something you’d expect for a west end show. Some of the songs are good, some not so good. There felt like there were gaps in the orchestrations and I was waiting for a decent musical hook to keep me interested. Carrie was really good though I and did find myself chuckling at some of the humour. The story was pretty boring. Cinderella has been done so many times I wanted something really different with it but it was just meh Does anyone have a breakdown of the band? How many and what instruments? I won’t call it an orchestra…. I personally loved the show, but the band was the biggest issue for me. 2 violins, 1 violin/viola, 1 viola, 1 cello, 1 French horn, 1 flute/clarinet and 1 keys/guitars. MD sometimes played keys. In the programme, they do "let you know" the original keyboards are prerecorded, however, most of the music is. No live percussion, no live trumpets, and most of the orchestral parts taken from the cast recording. No live percussion. That’s shocking. I presume they are all playing to a click track which I know is common place now in productions. I fear it won’t be long until live musicians are phased out completely. |
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Post by SuttonPeron on Oct 25, 2021 8:10:37 GMT
It unfortunately won´t be long, I´m afraid. I´m okay with a click in Mamma Mia or Six, but orchestral shows (although Cinderella isn´t purely orchestral) shouldn´t use them. Even the current Beauty tour runs with a click throughout the whole show. They´re playing shows with a symphonic style of music with the same "tricks" rock concerts use.
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Post by h86 on Oct 25, 2021 8:25:31 GMT
It unfortunately won´t be long, I´m afraid. I´m okay with a click in Mamma Mia or Six, but orchestral shows (although Cinderella isn´t purely orchestral) shouldn´t use them. Even the current Beauty tour runs with a click throughout the whole show. They´re playing shows with a symphonic style of music with the same "tricks" rock concerts use. I often hear the argument that the click allows the lighting cues to sync up perfectly with the music and for dance musicals it ensures a consistent tempo every time. I don’t know enough about how these things work practically to know whether this is a valid argument or not….. |
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Post by Seriously on Oct 25, 2021 10:12:52 GMT
It's called QLab. Lots of productions use it.
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Post by Oliver on Oct 25, 2021 11:01:15 GMT
Oliver I was presenting an argument, this isnt a court, just stating my thoughts. But if you want it, the orchestrations are all over the place. There is no distinct sound to the show or the world of Belleville, some songs are much richer and fuller sounding and some sound like 1 man on Bontempi keyboard. The emotions they are trying to convey in the songs are not reflected in the orchestrations. There can not be a huge swell of sound/feeling with 7 people in the band. The pre-programmed synths are no replacement for the real thing. There is very little cohesion in the orchestrations to hold it all togethwr. ALW barely has financial constraints. The details you mention are not the orchestrations, they are the arrangement / sound production, the limitations of which are necessitated by financial constraints. You can have a full orchestra with the orchestrations unchanged if the finances are there. I don't understand what you mean when you say ALW barely has financial constraints? Are you referring to his personal finances here? That has nothing to do with the musical investment which is provided by its backers. |
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Post by SuttonPeron on Oct 25, 2021 13:28:26 GMT
It unfortunately won´t be long, I´m afraid. I´m okay with a click in Mamma Mia or Six, but orchestral shows (although Cinderella isn´t purely orchestral) shouldn´t use them. Even the current Beauty tour runs with a click throughout the whole show. They´re playing shows with a symphonic style of music with the same "tricks" rock concerts use. I often hear the argument that the click allows the lighting cues to sync up perfectly with the music and for dance musicals it ensures a consistent tempo every time. I don’t know enough about how these things work practically to know whether this is a valid argument or not….. This is true. As another poster said, it´s done with QLab. The click can be used as a metronome to keep everything in sync (as it´s done in the carpet scene of Aladdin or in Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious), but can also be used to add a backing track with prerecorded instruments. The Broadway production of Frozen used a click track to sync the effects, but the subsequent tours have reduced their pits and added the missing instruments to the click track. |
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Post by scarpia on Oct 25, 2021 13:39:20 GMT
ALW barely has financial constraints. I don't understand what you mean when you say ALW barely has financial constraints? Are you referring to his personal finances here? That has nothing to do with the musical investment which is provided by its backers. Are you trying to say that ALW/RUG can no longer attract sufficient investment to stage a musical with West End values? I mean, I know he's had mostly flops for 2 decades now, but...if ALW can't get enough investment to have a decent band and set, then there's no hope for anyone. If Cinderella transferred to Broadway with no changes in its production values then it would be laughed out of town. I don't know why the West End would settle for less. |
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Post by Seriously on Oct 25, 2021 14:12:03 GMT
On Broadway shows have to use a specific size of orchestra depending on the theatre. So often musicians get paid but don't have to play (they just turn up and sign in, sometimes to several shows!).
ALW has already said that if Cinderella transfers, and to a larger theatre than London, he'll just add more live strings.
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Post by Oliver on Oct 25, 2021 14:56:35 GMT
I don't understand what you mean when you say ALW barely has financial constraints? Are you referring to his personal finances here? That has nothing to do with the musical investment which is provided by its backers. Are you trying to say that ALW/RUG can no longer attract sufficient investment to stage a musical with West End values? I mean, I know he's had mostly flops for 2 decades now, but...if ALW can't get enough investment to have a decent band and set, then there's no hope for anyone. If Cinderella transferred to Broadway with no changes in its production values then it would be laughed out of town. I don't know why the West End would settle for less. Well I have no idea how these investments work but surely the finances for a musical would be determined on a case by case basis? I imagine the lack of success of his recent shows would be a factor for sure, the time it's being released another, a judgement as to the show's commercial viability overall, the other costs involved in the production, and so on. They can't just say well because it's a West End musical and ALW's name is attached to the project the sky's the limit, the money has to come from somewhere. |
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Post by SuttonPeron on Oct 25, 2021 15:30:54 GMT
On Broadway shows have to use a specific size of orchestra depending on the theatre. So often musicians get paid but don't have to play (they just turn up and sign in, sometimes to several shows!). ALW has already said that if Cinderella transfers, and to a larger theatre than London, he'll just add more live strings. Do you have the source for this? If so, it´s a shame. It needs a percussionist, a trumpet, a bass player, and a second woodwind player a lot more than even more strings. They´re not even used that much in the show. They could´ve took a lot more advantage of them. |
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Post by danb on Oct 25, 2021 15:44:42 GMT
For someone previously so notoriously fussy about the sound of his shows and orchestrations etc, how is he so blase about Cinderella’s threadbare and synthetic sound? It really is bizarre.
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Post by stagebyte on Oct 25, 2021 16:16:59 GMT
I don't understand what you mean when you say ALW barely has financial constraints? Are you referring to his personal finances here? That has nothing to do with the musical investment which is provided by its backers. Are you trying to say that ALW/RUG can no longer attract sufficient investment to stage a musical with West End values? I mean, I know he's had mostly flops for 2 decades now, but...if ALW can't get enough investment to have a decent band and set, then there's no hope for anyone. If Cinderella transferred to Broadway with no changes in its production values then it would be laughed out of town. I don't know why the West End would settle for less. Erm.. flops? His last show School of Rock was a five star hit both sides of the Atlantic and here won the Olivier for outstanding achievement in music against the score for Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, Jesus Christ Superstar revival and Dreamgirls....now on a national tour. I would’ve thought that would’ve provided some bucks for a few live musicians. The sound just adds to the cheap production feel to Cinderella. Perhaps he should get some of the original kids band from School of Rock to help him out with some cheap labour 😉 |
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Post by h86 on Oct 25, 2021 16:30:50 GMT
I often hear the argument that the click allows the lighting cues to sync up perfectly with the music and for dance musicals it ensures a consistent tempo every time. I don’t know enough about how these things work practically to know whether this is a valid argument or not….. This is true. As another poster said, it´s done with QLab. The click can be used as a metronome to keep everything in sync (as it´s done in the carpet scene of Aladdin or in Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious), but can also be used to add a backing track with prerecorded instruments. The Broadway production of Frozen used a click track to sync the effects, but the subsequent tours have reduced their pits and added the missing instruments to the click track. So it’s actually pre recorded instruments on the click track as well? That’s such a shame. Doesn’t this put a lot of pressure on the performers to make sure their timings are correct for when they sing? I know when I played in a school pit band when I was younger we used to have to repeat bars again and again whilst there was dialogue and the length of this would vary every show, depending on the performer. We would just get a signal from the conductor when to move on. That can’t work with a click track can it? Or maybe the technology is so advanced that the timing of the click track can change…. |
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Post by danb on Oct 25, 2021 16:43:12 GMT
I’m not sure that even an Apple Mac could just keep vamping until Anita Harris remembers her next line in this years panto.
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Post by scarpia on Oct 25, 2021 16:56:41 GMT
Are you trying to say that ALW/RUG can no longer attract sufficient investment to stage a musical with West End values? I mean, I know he's had mostly flops for 2 decades now, but...if ALW can't get enough investment to have a decent band and set, then there's no hope for anyone. If Cinderella transferred to Broadway with no changes in its production values then it would be laughed out of town. I don't know why the West End would settle for less. Erm.. flops? His last show School of Rock was a five star hit both sides of the Atlantic and here won the Olivier for outstanding achievement in music. Hence my caveat, "mostly". Anyway to me it seems unlikely that RUG can't get enough investment to fund a decent production. I don't buy the "oh, but COVID ruined everything" excuse, since in that case they should have spent the time developing the show and readying it for a production with West End values, rather than premiering something half baked. |
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Post by Oliver on Oct 25, 2021 16:58:20 GMT
For someone previously so notoriously fussy about the sound of his shows and orchestrations etc, how is he so blase about Cinderella’s threadbare and synthetic sound? It really is bizarre. I remember him saying in an interview (not about Cinderella) that he wants a larger orchestra but can't have one. Again it comes down to investment. Why would he prefer not to have one anyway? That doesn't make sense. That said, I do think the smaller ensemble works well in Cinderella and that is thanks to the brilliant orchestrations. |
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Post by theatre on Oct 25, 2021 17:11:03 GMT
So it’s actually pre recorded instruments on the click track as well? That’s such a shame. Doesn’t this put a lot of pressure on the performers to make sure their timings are correct for when they sing? I know when I played in a school pit band when I was younger we used to have to repeat bars again and again whilst there was dialogue and the length of this would vary every show, depending on the performer. We would just get a signal from the conductor when to move on. That can’t work with a click track can it? Or maybe the technology is so advanced that the timing of the click track can change…. Yes, QLab can be set to go around and around a section of music until the spacebar is clicked, so it can work with a live conductor and respond accordingly. The software is great and brilliant for how it can sync up all the elements of a show, it's just a shame that it's being somewhat abused on this show with so much pre-recorded material, instead of just a metronome for live players to play along with! |
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Post by westended on Oct 25, 2021 17:12:21 GMT
For someone previously so notoriously fussy about the sound of his shows and orchestrations etc, how is he so blase about Cinderella’s threadbare and synthetic sound? It really is bizarre. I remember him saying in an interview (not about Cinderella) that he wants a larger orchestra but can't have one. Again it comes down to investment. Why would he prefer not to have one anyway? That doesn't make sense. That said, I do think the smaller ensemble works well in Cinderella and that is thanks to the brilliant orchestrations. Perhaps the logistics of space in the Gillian Lynne is the issue here that is restricting the size of the orchestra? They’re currently on a small-ish platform above SL, so maybe there just isn’t space/availability of an orchestra pit to have a large, lush sounding orchestra with full brass/wind + percussion. |
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