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Post by mrk on May 17, 2019 10:13:27 GMT
There is a word for people that don't like colour blind casting. You would think the reactionary sorts that plagued this board and its predecessors since Billy Elliot days would have evolved in their attitudes but I guess not.
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Post by Someone in a tree on May 17, 2019 10:15:05 GMT
I am not a fan of people who object to colour blind casting
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Post by basdfg on May 17, 2019 10:42:07 GMT
Funny enough, I was wondering about colour-blind casting last night too. I don't see it would be an issue. There were certainly black people in all classes in London at the time the show was set. That we whitewashed them out of history books so the fact wasn't recognised is the actual issue at stake, I feel. I could see it getting a lot of press coverage.
I think unlike Oliver or Les Misrables the class aspect makes it part of the story.
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Post by basdfg on May 17, 2019 10:44:40 GMT
I am not a fan of people who object to colour blind casting What about a white man playing Nelson Mandela? That is what my dad always asks.
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Post by oxfordsimon on May 17, 2019 10:49:08 GMT
I think it could be interesting to see what casting actors of colour as Eliza and Doolittle could add to the piece. By adding race to the prejudices already shown towards the working class characters, it could add something new to the show. It would, of course, provoke a strong reaction - but that is not in and of itself a bad thing.
I am not sure that Sher would be the director to take the show in this particular direction but I believe it could work with the right team at the helm.
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Post by basdfg on May 17, 2019 10:58:59 GMT
I think it could be interesting to see what casting actors of colour as Eliza and Doolittle could add to the piece. By adding race to the prejudices already shown towards the working class characters, it could add something new to the show. It would, of course, provoke a strong reaction - but that is not in and of itself a bad thing. I am not sure that Sher would be the director to take the show in this particular direction but I believe it could work with the right team at the helm. I doubt they would do acknowledge race. It be like a the elephant in the room - never mentioned on stage.
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Post by basdfg on May 17, 2019 11:00:18 GMT
There is a word for people that don't like colour blind casting. You would think the reactionary sorts that plagued this board and its predecessors since Billy Elliot days would have evolved in their attitudes but I guess not. My Fair lady being class based is one that I think falls into the category that colour blind casting would only work if it is acknowledged on stage. The Sound of Music is another It does a diservice to racism if a black Eliza was not shown to suffer racial prejudice.
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Post by Someone in a tree on May 17, 2019 11:02:20 GMT
I am not a fan of people who object to colour blind casting What about a white man playing Nelson Mandela? Will that ever happen. Or is colour blind casting only for roles originally conceived as white? How about black actors playing the white parts and vice versa? May make ignorant white folk a bit more empathetic
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Post by Oleanna on May 17, 2019 11:07:33 GMT
I am not a fan of people who object to colour blind casting What about a white man playing Nelson Mandela? Will that ever happen. Or is colour blind casting only for roles originally conceived as white? Nelson Mandela was a REAL PERSON, come on now. Eliza Doolittle is a fictional character. Rules of colourblind casting: 1. Are they a real person? If yes, then colourblind casting is not appropriate, except in an artistic reimagining i.e Hamilton. If no, then go wild. Except if they fall into... 2. Is race/heritage integral to the story? If yes, then colourblind casting is not appropriate. If no, then go wild. Also, as interesting as it is to have conversations about how likely it would have been to have a cockney flower seller of colour at that time, rule number... 3. Colourblind casting does not necessarily alter the narrative of that character. For example, if a person of colour played Eliza Doolittle, they would be exactly that: a person of colour playing Eliza Doolittle. The ideas of Eliza as a character now having been raised a person of colour in her own timeframe, and the changes that implies to the character are arguably moot. The character is the same, they’re just being played by an actor. Colourblind casting means exactly that: you are blind to the colour of the actor, and are there to see them play a character.
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Post by Oleanna on May 17, 2019 11:09:18 GMT
My dad will flip out of Eliza is mixed race or black. He went into a rant about it last year. He is not a fan of colour blind casting. Then he’s welcome to stay at home.
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Post by poster J on May 17, 2019 11:09:28 GMT
There is a word for people that don't like colour blind casting. You would think the reactionary sorts that plagued this board and its predecessors since Billy Elliot days would have evolved in their attitudes but I guess not. My parents are despite to see My Fair Lady but my dad as vowed not to go if Eliza is non white. I doubt they alone.
Then I very much hope that they do cast a non-white actress in the role (assuming she has the requisite singing and acting talent of course). Outdated attitudes like your parents' have no place in modern theatre as far as I'm concerned. Respecting and encouraging talent regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation costs nothing but having a bit of basic respect for fellow human beings.
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Post by basdfg on May 17, 2019 11:10:41 GMT
What about a white man playing Nelson Mandela? Will that ever happen. Or is colour blind casting only for roles originally conceived as white? Nelson Mandela was a REAL PERSON, come on now. Eliza Doolittle is a fictional character. Rules of colourblind casting: 1. Are they a real person? If yes, then colourblind casting is not appropriate, except in an artistic reimagining i.e Hamilton. 2. Is race/heritage integral to the story? If yes, then colourblind casting is not appropriate. Also, as interesting as it is to have conversations about how likely it would have been to have a cockney flower seller of colour at that time, rule number... 3. Colourblind casting does not necessarily alter the narrative of that character. For example, if a person of colour played Eliza Doolittle, they would be exactly that: a person of colour playing Eliza Doolittle. The ideas of Eliza as a character now having been raised a person of colour in her own timeframe, and the changes that implies to the character are arguably moot. The character is the same, they’re just being played by an actor. Colourblind casting means exactly that: you are blind to the colour of the actor, and are there to see them play a character. A black Eliza is more realistic than a black Higgins. More black cockneys than upper class people in 1910 London.
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Post by basdfg on May 17, 2019 11:11:21 GMT
My dad will flip out of Eliza is mixed race or black. He went into a rant about it last year. He is not a fan of colour blind casting. Then he’s welcome to stay at home. And if everyone does the show closes.
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Post by poster J on May 17, 2019 11:12:14 GMT
Then he’s welcome to stay at home. And if everyone does the show closes. I think you'll find the people who stay at home will be the minority. Most people have more sense. His prerogative of course, but that sort of attitude is thankfully not going to be held by enough people to cause any damage to the show at all - Les Mis has had ethnic minority actors playing leading roles and funnily enough no-one batted an eyelid.
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Post by Oleanna on May 17, 2019 11:12:52 GMT
Nelson Mandela was a REAL PERSON, come on now. Eliza Doolittle is a fictional character. Rules of colourblind casting: 1. Are they a real person? If yes, then colourblind casting is not appropriate, except in an artistic reimagining i.e Hamilton. 2. Is race/heritage integral to the story? If yes, then colourblind casting is not appropriate. Also, as interesting as it is to have conversations about how likely it would have been to have a cockney flower seller of colour at that time, rule number... 3. Colourblind casting does not necessarily alter the narrative of that character. For example, if a person of colour played Eliza Doolittle, they would be exactly that: a person of colour playing Eliza Doolittle. The ideas of Eliza as a character now having been raised a person of colour in her own timeframe, and the changes that implies to the character are arguably moot. The character is the same, they’re just being played by an actor. Colourblind casting means exactly that: you are blind to the colour of the actor, and are there to see them play a character. A black Eliza is more realistic than a black Higgins. More black cockneys than upper class people in 1910 London.
Not sure audiences buy ignoring the colour of an actor when watching a show.
May I invite you to read my post again? It may be your perception that “audiences won’t buy ignoring colour”, but all that seems to suggest is that you have a very superficial view of modern theatre audiences, probably informed by a small circle of reference, at the centre of which sit your parents.
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Post by couldileaveyou on May 17, 2019 11:13:58 GMT
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Post by basdfg on May 17, 2019 11:15:54 GMT
And if everyone does the show closes. I think you'll find the people who stay at home will be the minority. Most people have more sense. His prerogative of course, but that sort of attitude is thankfully not going to be held by enough people to cause any damage to the show at all - Les Mis has had ethnic minority actors playing leading roles and funnily enough no-one batted an eyelid. His rants scare me at time. And it will of course be more who has to put up with it. His Paranoia and anger is unbearable at times.
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Post by Oleanna on May 17, 2019 11:18:47 GMT
I think you'll find the people who stay at home will be the minority. Most people have more sense. His prerogative of course, but that sort of attitude is thankfully not going to be held by enough people to cause any damage to the show at all - Les Mis has had ethnic minority actors playing leading roles and funnily enough no-one batted an eyelid. His rants scare me at time. And it will of course be more who has to put up with it. I have sympathy for your situation basdfg, after all, our parents are the most influential people in our lives. All I can say is I really hope you have opportunities to form your own opinions, views and passions, away from what your parents think and feel.
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Post by theatrenewbie on May 17, 2019 11:19:57 GMT
I actually did mention the amira okereke whos going to play Laurey in Oklahoma as an good candidate for my fair lady, but obviously that post got overlooked. I think it would add a really interesting second level, seeing her develop through the show. I like colour blind casting when it works. What people need to remember we are watching a musical where a whole town square doesn’t bust into a ten min dance break or In a middle of a fight we break out into a power ballad. Taking a leap of faith and imagination will kinda help you over come someone’s colour...which shouldn’t matter anyway. Colour blind casting isn’t just shoving a in black person in a show and saying great filled the quota. And it’s no good saying well we have Tina, Mormon, dreamgirls theu are “race specific shows” where if I was black I wouldn’t be offended if I wasn’t up for Tracey turnblad if auditioning for hairspray, as the whole background is racial divide. But my fair lady doesn’t state or nor claim Eliza is white or black just explains her age physical appearance but not race! Just the same with hermione and maybe 50% of other leading lady roles which don’t specifically relate to race (ie- Effie) And no I’m not triggered would just like to set some facts straight with people who maybe a little naive about this issue Until it’s equal playing field in representation in shows for All races then w’ell never have a white Mandela.
So you can run and tell that 😂😉
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Post by basdfg on May 17, 2019 11:26:26 GMT
I actually did mention the amira okereke whos going to play Laurey in Oklahoma as an good candidate for my fair lady, but obviously that post got overlooked. I think it would add a really interesting second level, seeing her develop through the show. I like colour blind casting when it works. What people need to remember we are watching a musical where a whole town square doesn’t bust into a ten min dance break or In a middle of a fight we break out into a power ballad. Taking a leap of faith and imagination will kinda help you over come someone’s colour...which shouldn’t matter anyway. Colour blind casting isn’t just shoving a in black person in a show and saying great filled the quota. And it’s no good saying well we have Tina, Mormon, dreamgirls theu are “race specific shows” where if I was black I wouldn’t be offended if I wasn’t up for Tracey turnblad if auditioning for hairspray, as the whole background is racial divide. But my fair lady doesn’t state or nor claim Eliza is white or black just explains her age physical appearance but not race! Just the same with hermione and maybe 50% of other leading lady roles which don’t specifically relate to race (ie- Effie) And no I’m not triggered would just like to set some facts straight with people who maybe a little naive about this issue Until it’s equal playing field in representation in shows for All races then w’ell never have a white Mandela. So you can run and tell that 😂😉 Dreamgirls is a show where race is a key underlying theme and the characters are semi based on real people anyway.
Showboat is an intresting one - Julie is mixed race but is sometimes played by white actress and other times by actress who are clearly mixed race when it's supposed to be something only her and Steve know. The Audience ignoring it theory doesn't work for Showboat because race is one of themes of the show.
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Post by princeton on May 17, 2019 11:27:50 GMT
since when was Eliza black? Since when was fictional character Eliza Doolittle white? In Pygmalion Shaw makes specific reference to where she was born and what she is wearing - but not her ethnicity. In the script for My Fair Lady she is described as follows: "She is a flower girl, Eliza Doolittle. Her basket of flowers has been knocked from her hands and her violets scattered about. She is not at all an attractive person. She is perhaps eighteen, perhaps twenty, hardly older. She wears a little sailor hat of black straw that has long been exposed to the dust and soot of London and has seldom if ever been brushed. Her hair needs washing rather badly; its mousy colour can hardly be natural. She wears a shoddy shawl, a dirty blouse with a coarse apron. Her boots are much the worse for wear. She is no doubt as clean as she can afford to be; but compared to the ladies she is very dirty. Her features are no worse than theirs; but their condition leave something to be desired, and she needs the services of a dentist" BTW Cush Jumbo was a magnificent Eliza in Pygmalion at the Royal Exchange in Manchester a few years ago
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Post by couldileaveyou on May 17, 2019 11:30:30 GMT
A recent Off Broadway revival of Pygmalion had an Indian actress playing Eliza, which is really a wonderful idea that adds the theme of imperialism and immigration to the piece. I'm sure it would work equally well with My Fair Lady, especially since most of the time talking about diversity is reduced to some sort of black/white dichotomy, which is really not the case. Bend It Like Beckham had a great cast, but it doesn't look like there are many possibilities for Southern-Asian (or just Asian) actors in the West End.
That said, Bartlett Sher is a wonderful director, but not a revolutionary one. You'll get your white Eliza.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 11:36:20 GMT
I'm sadly sure they'll cast Sheridan Smith There’s no way I can imagine her being able to sing it properly. Act it, maybe but that’s not good enough on its own. Didn’t stop Josie Rourke casting Anne Marie Duff.
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Post by theatrenewbie on May 17, 2019 11:36:26 GMT
I actually did mention the amira okereke whos going to play Laurey in Oklahoma as an good candidate for my fair lady, but obviously that post got overlooked. I think it would add a really interesting second level, seeing her develop through the show. I like colour blind casting when it works. What people need to remember we are watching a musical where a whole town square doesn’t bust into a ten min dance break or In a middle of a fight we break out into a power ballad. Taking a leap of faith and imagination will kinda help you over come someone’s colour...which shouldn’t matter anyway. Colour blind casting isn’t just shoving a in black person in a show and saying great filled the quota. And it’s no good saying well we have Tina, Mormon, dreamgirls theu are “race specific shows” where if I was black I wouldn’t be offended if I wasn’t up for Tracey turnblad if auditioning for hairspray, as the whole background is racial divide. But my fair lady doesn’t state or nor claim Eliza is white or black just explains her age physical appearance but not race! Just the same with hermione and maybe 50% of other leading lady roles which don’t specifically relate to race (ie- Effie) And no I’m not triggered would just like to set some facts straight with people who maybe a little naive about this issue Until it’s equal playing field in representation in shows for All races then w’ell never have a white Mandela. So you can run and tell that 😂😉 Dreamgirls is a show where race is a key underlying theme and the characters are semi based on real people anyway.
Showboat is an intresting one - Julie is mixed race but is sometimes played by white actress and other times by actress who are clearly mixed race when it's supposed to be something only her and Steve know.
That’s nice, totally understand your point. I only mentioned Effie as in my “humble eyes” it’s imperative you have black girl playing that role. . But I’d like to talk about and not brush over is “white roles” not ambiguous ethnicities or semi biographical roles. I’m not just alluding them to be played by black people, all races need representation in this white dominated world. Let me think of better ideas and you can let me know your thoughts Anna - king and I Christine daae - specifically played by black lady (yes I know the book states she’s from Sweden or something. Julie Jordan Not trying to start a fight but food for thought.
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Post by basdfg on May 17, 2019 11:38:24 GMT
A recent Off Broadway revival of Pygmalion had an Indian actress playing Eliza, which is really a wonderful idea that adds the theme of imperialism and immigration to the piece. I'm sure it would work equally well with My Fair Lady, especially since most of the time talking about diversity is reduced to some sort of black/white dichotomy, which is really not the case. Bend It Like Beckham had a great cast, but it doesn't look like there are many possibilities for Southern-Asian (or just Asian) actors in the West End. That said, Bartlett Sher is a wonderful director, but not a revolutionary one. You'll get your white Eliza. A mixed race Eliza would probably be the first step - like how Nancy has had many mixed race portrayals but not as many actress of full black heritage. Quite possibly racism there - light skinned people of colour being seen as more acceptable for originally white roles than darker skinned ones.
Did the play make reference to Eliza having Indian roots or was the script and actions the same as if she was white. The first is more revolutionary than the second because race and racism is actually explored rather than just being ignored.
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Post by Jon on May 17, 2019 12:08:47 GMT
Funny enough, I was wondering about colour-blind casting last night too. I don't see it would be an issue. There were certainly black people in all classes in London at the time the show was set. That we whitewashed them out of history books so the fact wasn't recognised is the actual issue at stake, I feel. Colour blind casting is certainly present in this production as both actors who played Freddy were both black.
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Post by poster J on May 17, 2019 12:18:29 GMT
A mixed race Eliza would probably be the first step This very Broadway production has already had that - the second understudy, Shereen Ahmed, who went on for Eliza a couple of weeks ago. I don't think colour-blind casting for here is beyond the realms of possibility at all.
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Post by Phantom of London on May 17, 2019 12:46:59 GMT
Can the producers not go with a Companyesque approach instead.
With Eliza, use gender blind casting? So have a man that sells flowers in Covent Garden instead?
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Post by oxfordsimon on May 17, 2019 13:05:29 GMT
With Shaw falling out of copyright next year, I can see a number of new interpretations of his plays heading to the stage. A Pygmalion with a male Eliza could certainly work - why not also throw in a female Higgins and explore things the other way round?
Probably easier to do it with the play as you don't need to consider adapting the musical score.
As with many things derived from Greek myths, you can often find a lot of freedom to change things up.
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Post by Jon on May 17, 2019 13:08:19 GMT
With Shaw falling out of copyright next year, I can see a number of new interpretations of his plays heading to the stage. A Pygmalion with a male Eliza could certainly work - why not also throw in a female Higgins and explore things the other way round? Probably easier to do it with the play as you don't need to consider adapting the musical score. As with many things derived from Greek myths, you can often find a lot of freedom to change things up. It’s sort of surprising a gender swapped Pygmalion has never been done already.
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