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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 12:36:16 GMT
I just wondered what other board members felt about the 7 Labour MPs resigning from the party to sit as independent MPs. I don't personally think this will worry Jeremy Corbyn too much as these MPs were unhappy with the direction he was taking the party in. There have been calls for them to call by-elections and face the voting public given they were elected as a Labour MP. I can see the reasoning behind this but it probably won't happen, the MPs could risk losing their seats and a split vote between them and the official Labour candidate could see another party take a seat or two. This would be in neither sides interest.
The real crunch could be if more Centralist or Right leaning Labour MPs jump ship and pro Remain moderate Tory MPs do likewise. If you got a rump of say 15 MPs then you'd have a decent parliamentary force certainly outnumbering the Lib Dems.
Would this new rump combine with the Lib Dems who only have 12 MPs. Their leader Sir Vince Cable whilst being a widely respected politician is now 75 years old and would be nearing 80 at the next set Election. Whilst Jeremy Corbyn is nearing 70 and Theresa May is 62, Sir Vince's age as the leader of a smaller party could still count against him. He had talked about widening the search for his successor and a combined party lead by someone like Chuka Umunna could gain a lot of support.
Chuka IMO is the biggest loss to the Labour Party and was apparently the person the Tory's were said to most fear if he'd stood for Labour Leadership back in 2015. He didn't stand as he felt uncomfortable about the extra scrutiny he and his family would be under if he got the job. Having burnt his Labour ties now, if he still has major political ambition then being leader of this "new" or any combined party would seem a logical step.
Luciana Berger was always likely to quit Labour over the anti-antisemitism issue and could well be a big player in the new party. Anne Coffey and Mike Gapes have both been Labour MPs since 1992 so to quit after nearly 27 years was a big move. But Anne is 72 now and Mike is 66 so they might not have stood for re-election next time or might have been having issues with the local party wanting to bring a younger or pro-Corbyn candidate in so they have probably the least to lose jumping ship.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Feb 19, 2019 12:48:32 GMT
There is definitely an opportunity for a centralist party, if they are joined by Conservative MP’s there is a chance that the Political landscape could change and it would make sense for the Lib Dem’s to become aligned.
Does ‘Liberal’ mean anything these days, always considered myself a liberal at heart and could find myself potentially engaged by a centralist liberal leaning Political movement.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 13:00:42 GMT
Personally, Corbyn is making a hash of Labour's potential so I can see people would be jumping ship. The Independent Group didn't get off to the strongest of starts thanks to Angela Smith's choice words on Politics Live yesterday.
I think in decades to come this period will be a very interesting period to study.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Feb 19, 2019 18:53:08 GMT
Personally, Corbyn is making a hash of Labour's potential so I can see people would be jumping ship. The Independent Group didn't get off to the strongest of starts thanks to Angela Smith's choice words on Politics Live yesterday. I think in decades to come this period will be a very interesting period to study. Making a hash in what way? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 19:13:54 GMT
Personally, Corbyn is making a hash of Labour's potential so I can see people would be jumping ship. The Independent Group didn't get off to the strongest of starts thanks to Angela Smith's choice words on Politics Live yesterday. I think in decades to come this period will be a very interesting period to study. Making a hash in what way? In providing an alternative, strong opposition. |
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Post by Marwood on Feb 19, 2019 19:15:03 GMT
Personally, Corbyn is making a hash of Labour's potential so I can see people would be jumping ship. The Independent Group didn't get off to the strongest of starts thanks to Angela Smith's choice words on Politics Live yesterday. I think in decades to come this period will be a very interesting period to study. Making a hash in what way? Making a total hash of being the leader of the opposition? The worst prime minister (who none of us wanted to be PM and only got in because the ‘proper’ PM decided to throw his toys out of his pram and slink off when things didn’t go his way Brexit wise) in living memory but all he does is a lot of hmming and aahing rather than going for the jugular and putting May to the sword. In football terms, he couldn’t hit a cows arse with a banjo- it’s a tragedy Umunna had to quit the Labour Party, he would be an infinitely superior party leader to Corbyn. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Feb 19, 2019 19:23:47 GMT
Making a hash in what way? Making a total hash of being the leader of the opposition? The worst prime minister (who none of us wanted to be PM and only got in because the ‘proper’ PM decided to throw his toys out of his pram and slink off when things didn’t go his way Brexit wise) in living memory but all he does is a lot of hmming and aahing rather than going for the jugular and putting May to the sword. In football terms, he couldn’t hit a cows arse with a banjo- it’s a tragedy Umunna had to quit the Labour Party, he would be an infinitely superior party leader to Corbyn. Where do you begin with that post?? |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Feb 19, 2019 19:25:40 GMT
Making a hash in what way? In providing an alternative, strong opposition. I look at it a different way. It's good having a socialist party, no sorry it is great having the Labour party as a socialist party. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 20:08:36 GMT
In providing an alternative, strong opposition. I look at it a different way. It's good having a socialist party, no sorry it is great having the Labour party as a socialist party. I can get on board with Labour being less 'for the working man' and more for the socialist outlook, but at this point in time, I just feel like Labour are failing to capitalise* on the many opportunities the Conservatives have provided to gain appeal and control of a spiralling situation. The longer he's stood in charge of the Labour party, the less he has appealed to me as a leader. Granted my views are formed from snippets and glimpses across the press and are not nearly as informed as others may be. *yes I understand the irony of the use of this word. |
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Post by Marwood on Feb 19, 2019 20:19:35 GMT
Making a total hash of being the leader of the opposition? The worst prime minister (who none of us wanted to be PM and only got in because the ‘proper’ PM decided to throw his toys out of his pram and slink off when things didn’t go his way Brexit wise) in living memory but all he does is a lot of hmming and aahing rather than going for the jugular and putting May to the sword. In football terms, he couldn’t hit a cows arse with a banjo- it’s a tragedy Umunna had to quit the Labour Party, he would be an infinitely superior party leader to Corbyn. Where do you begin with that post?? Where indeed do you start? Time and time again he has had the opportunity to show this country that we have had unacceptable ‘leadership’ since the summer of 2016 and every time, he has failed spectacularly (just as he has failed to successfully answer the claims of anti-semitism which have lead to this whole affair) - I am fed up to the back teeth of cries of ‘he’s a thoroughly decent old man!’ as if he’s the Clive Dunn of Westminster: he has had more than long enough to shows he’s capable of being the leader of a successful opposition but he has come up wanting every single time. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Feb 19, 2019 20:37:40 GMT
I look at it a different way. It's good having a socialist party, no sorry it is great having the Labour party as a socialist party. I can get on board with Labour being less 'for the working man' and more for the socialist outlook, but at this point in time, I just feel like Labour are failing to capitalise* on the many opportunities the Conservatives have provided to gain appeal and control of a spiralling situation. The longer he's stood in charge of the Labour party, the less he has appealed to me as a leader. Granted my views are formed from snippets and glimpses across the press and are not nearly as informed as others may be. *yes I understand the irony of the use of this word. Isn't your first sentence a contradiction? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 20:39:54 GMT
I can get on board with Labour being less 'for the working man' and more for the socialist outlook, but at this point in time, I just feel like Labour are failing to capitalise* on the many opportunities the Conservatives have provided to gain appeal and control of a spiralling situation. The longer he's stood in charge of the Labour party, the less he has appealed to me as a leader. Granted my views are formed from snippets and glimpses across the press and are not nearly as informed as others may be. *yes I understand the irony of the use of this word. Isn't your first sentence a contradiction? Enlighten me... |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Feb 19, 2019 20:55:36 GMT
Isn't your first sentence a contradiction? Enlighten me... |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Feb 19, 2019 20:56:41 GMT
Isn't your first sentence a contradiction? Enlighten me... |
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Post by Phantom of London on Feb 19, 2019 21:23:32 GMT
If a ‘centralist’ Party was to do well and as they say the holy grail is the centre, where elections are lost and won, why have the Liberal Demorcrats never done well? They epitomise the centre, mimic Labour on social policies and shadow Conservatives economically. One Liberal Democrat commented he came from a Labour father and a Conservative mother, making him the perfect Liberal Democrat.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 22:23:55 GMT
If a ‘centralist’ Party was to do well and as they say the holy grail is the centre, where elections are lost and won, why have the Liberal Demorcrats never done well? They epitomise the centre, mimic Labour on social policies and shadow Conservatives economically. One Liberal Democrat commented he came from a Labour father and a Conservative mother, making him the perfect Liberal Democrat. The Lib Dems have always faced the problem of loyalty to the two main parties. Elections are won on the middle ground but unless the Conservatives have gone too right at the same time Labour have gone too left it seldom means significant gains for the Lib Dems in a first past the post system. You've just reminded me of the following which perfectly sums up their predicament! |
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Post by Backdrifter on Feb 19, 2019 22:59:28 GMT
why have the Liberal Demorcrats never done well? They epitomise the centre, mimic Labour on social policies and shadow Conservatives economically. They were gaining ground and as we know held the balance of power in the 2010 election. But being in the coalition killed them in the eyes of the electorate and they had massive losses in 2015. |
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Post by Backdrifter on Feb 19, 2019 23:05:23 GMT
One more Labour MP gone tonight, and strong speculation 3 tories will go tomorrow.
Is this a handful of MPs having a strop that'll be forgotten soon, or is this an indication of big changes afoot in UK politics?
Over the last few years I've increasingly felt the political system has been ailing in a hospital bed. It looks like it could now be fragmenting.
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Post by Latecomer on Feb 19, 2019 23:34:49 GMT
Option poll now done that says 10% of the country would vote for this new movement. As they have no policies and no leader and their one unique selling point seems to be they hate everyone else in politics this confirms my view that we might as well give up now......
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 23:40:58 GMT
The Liberal Democrats had worked hard to turn votes into parliamentary seats under the late Paddy Ashdown and Charles Kennedy but that was undone my Nick Clegg's desire to be Deputy PM.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 0:06:47 GMT
Lib Dems were hurt primarily because of a lack of understanding, from too many people, of coalition politics. The cancer in our parliamentary system is the idea that you get to vote for a party that gets all its own way if it finishes ahead of the others. This ‘winner takes all’ idea is a complete anathema in most European countries and a major part of the reason for our divided politics, culminating in the current disastrous parliament.
What we need is more compromise and a culture which prizes negotiation and consensus. If we had this entrenched then we just might have avoided our current descent into chaos. It isn’t just politicians to blame either, they are just doing the bidding of every single voter who has seen politics as the act of waiting for ‘their turn’ in government.
The sooner that our party system becomes much more fragmentary the better.
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Post by Phantom of London on Feb 20, 2019 7:55:35 GMT
The alternative to the current voting system 'first past the post' is one that is far from transparent, which people don't understand.
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Post by Latecomer on Feb 20, 2019 8:22:15 GMT
Lib Dems were hurt primarily because of a lack of understanding, from too many people, of coalition politics. The cancer in our parliamentary system is the idea that you get to vote for a party that gets all its own way if it finishes ahead of the others. This ‘winner takes all’ idea is a complete anathema in most European countries and a major part of the reason for our divided politics, culminating in the current disastrous parliament. What we need is more compromise and a culture which prizes negotiation and consensus. If we had this entrenched then we just might have avoided our current descent into chaos. It isn’t just politicians to blame either, they are just doing the bidding of every single voter who has seen politics as the act of waiting for ‘their turn’ in government. The sooner that our party system becomes much more fragmentary the better. I think it was also the case that a typical Lib Dem voter at the time was HORRIFIED that they chose the Conservatives over a (more difficult and possibly fragile) Labour+others coalition. Our divided politics mean that sometimes we are voting to STOP a party getting into power......so if the party we vote for then goes into coalition with them we are very disillusioned. I would argue that Lib Dem + Labour +others were a better fit at the time than Lib Dem + Conservatives. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Feb 20, 2019 9:11:22 GMT
I have always had issues with many forms of PR. Many of the systems break the connection between the constituency and the MP - so you are voting for party rather that individual. This is certainly the case with MEPs - they are elected on a regional basis and so you have no real link between a relatively small defined geographical area and their elected representative.
Whenever you move to a list system, it is the parties that get greater control over who sits in Parliament. There is far less chance of the individual maverick types getting elected. Parties will select voting fodder rather than allowing voters to choose from a list of individuals.
I also find it wrong under list systems that a resignation just leads to the next person from the party list automatically taking over the seat. Over the years, I have voted for 2 different parties and quite frequently spoiled my ballot paper. I like to assess candidates on their merits and vote accordingly.
The other big issue I have that a move to permanent coalitions is that you effectively do away with manifestos - as everything is up for negotiation when it comes to forming a government. The voters can vote for a party that then trades away key things. It puts the power in the hands of the party managers not the voters.
First past the post is also not ideal. But it is still the least worst option as far as I am concerned.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Feb 20, 2019 9:18:11 GMT
Will admit the coalition with the Conservatives made me move away from the Liberal Democrat’s.
Thought Corbyn was a breath of fresh air when he became leader and agree that the nationalisation of core utilities should at least be a valid standpoint along with supporting poorer workers with a sensible miimum wage, believe that the minimum wage should be aligned with the tax and NI threshold. As a single male with no dependencies on a good salary, with the changes in tax thresholds I have been gifted a tax cut for the last few years which is ridiculous.
It is his performance as a leader that is underwhelming, we have the weakest most divisive Government in living memory and in every PM Question Time he cannot even land any body blows and what can be easier than standing up to anti-semitism.
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