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Post by Roxie on Nov 7, 2018 22:45:34 GMT
Hi!
thread to continue the discussion on the stage door dramas thread (we were hijacking that a bit!)
a place to discuss the trials and tribulations of being a woman. Contributions welcome from everyone, this is not a women’s only post. And I’d also be interested to hear if any of you lovely ladies are trans, whether your experiences differ in any way from cis women.
I’ll kick off. I’ve been groped in bars and clubs more times than I can count, and I’ve always shrugged it off as just something that happens. When it happened to me recently, i decided I’d had enough and I confronted the bloke and told him that was not acceptable and he shouldn’t be touching me without my permission. He acted like I was completely in the wrong and said I should be pleased he’d groped me as he meant it as a compliment and he didn’t know why I was making a fuss!!! Grrrr. I told him to walk away from me or I’d get him chucked out of the bar. I was fuming!!
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Post by Backdrifter on Nov 7, 2018 23:00:20 GMT
I'm so naive and unworldly that it wasn't until a few years back when I first started reading the Everyday Sexism twitter feed that I realised people just casually groped strangers in bars like it's a normal acceptable thing. It's saddening and maddening to hear a recipient of this say they reached the point of treating it as a regular hazard of going to bars. But a relief you decided enough was enough. Still a horrible story. I feel enraged by proxy about it.
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336 posts
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Post by Roxie on Nov 7, 2018 23:19:12 GMT
It happens SO OFTEN that you just become desensitised to it! I’ve had men follow me and had to hide behind bins, I’ve been groped, i get wolf whistled regularly, I get told to smile, by strange men, i get beeped at walking down the street, I get made to feel uncomfortable quite regularly. And I’m not a particularly attractive woman, I’m ordinary. And I’m lucky, I’ve never been seriously assaulted or raped. I’ve just had minor sexual assaults, I’m one of the lucky ones! How ridiculous does that sound!
I recently saw a headline that made me angry - the police were warning women around a certain tube station not to wear headphones because they were at risk of attack. Erm, how’s about WARNING MEN NOT TO ATTACK WOMEN!!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 23:26:49 GMT
The number one thing that would improve life immeasurably is if, when women talk about their life experiences, men could listen. Instead of dismissing or disbelieving or ignoring or talking over or brushing it off as fake or exaggerated or not a big deal. Just taking a few minutes to *actually listen*, and think and empathise and just be human about it.
(This of course works in all directions - white people should listen to people of colour, straight people should listen to queer people, cis people should listen to gender-queer people, able-bodied people should listen to disabled people, middle-class people should listen to working class people, and so on and so forth ad infinitum. Where you have privilege, recognise it, listen to the people who don't have that privilege, and elevate their voices where you can.)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 1:32:14 GMT
I have never seen anyone being groped in a bar. What do you mean by groped, touched on private parts or a hand on the middle back ? I think people have changed since my youth in the 1980s. In those days if you even said something a woman thought was disrespectful she would snap angrily at you.
I guess there are a minority of men who think it is ok to touch women without consent. Depends on their upbringing and previous experiences. Most men would no way do this, and would call out any man who did. We just need telling about it. Like the Me-too movements. Complaining 30 years later is too late. Should be called the Too-late movement.
As a bloke I had no fear of walking anywhere at all. Until Theresa May`s recent police cuts in London which has made me a bit wary on London`s streets. But this is how women have always felt, I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 5:26:39 GMT
Well, perhaps men shouldn’t feel too comnfident about walking around at night given that they are more likely than women to be the victims of violence.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 5:49:09 GMT
In my last job I worked with a couple of men who behaved as though they were my (and other women's) bosses, even though we were all equal in status. They would order people around, behave as though their ideas were better than everyone else's, ridicule women's ideas and talk over them in meetings - the usual thing. The weird thing for me was to observe the way that other women allowed this to happen without complaint. They behaved as though those men did have more expertise etc. Many of the women seemed to indulge in low level flirtations with the men, which bolstered their sense of entitlement. When I challenged the behaviour by refusing to bow down to the men they made things very difficult for me and none of the other women came to my aid, keeping their heads down. I suppose that, even though those men were not in charge, they had close relationships with men who were powerful within the institution. On another subject: I don't think I have ever witnessed a relationship between heterosexual men and women where there was complete equality. The men always seem to be pandered to in some way. Women still seem to do more than their fair share of the housework and childcare. I honestly don't know how women can live like this. A lot of women seem to put male companionship above their own well being.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 8:34:54 GMT
I have never seen anyone being groped in a bar. What do you mean by groped, touched on private parts or a hand on the middle back ? I think people have changed since my youth in the 1980s. In those days if you even said something a woman thought was disrespectful she would snap angrily at you. I guess there are a minority of men who think it is ok to touch women without consent. Depends on their upbringing and previous experiences. Most men would no way do this, and would call out any man who did. We just need telling about it. Like the Me-too movements. Complaining 30 years later is too late. Should be called the Too-late movement. As a bloke I had no fear of walking anywhere at all. Until Theresa May`s recent police cuts in London which has made me a bit wary on London`s streets. But this is how women have always felt, I guess. The point is that it's very difficult to complain or make a fuss there and then. Most of the MeToo movement centres on men of power exploiting women and we are often either in fear of physical violence or losing a job etc. Losing a job in the sense of (particularly 30 years ago) just being fired there and then, or losing a job in the sense of the more 'casting couch' scenarios that kicked this off of 'do what I say or you won't get a part' As for groping in pubs/clubs, it varies. It can be a quick 'arse grab' as you walk by, it can be a man rubbing up against you in a bar queue, it can be grabbing you and forcing you against a wall, forcing himself on you for a kiss or yes, putting his hands under clothes. That said I or any woman shouldn't have to explain what 'inappropriate' or 'groping' is, if we say we don't want to be touch like that, then it's groping or inappropriate. I think that's the first lesson, again to echo @baemax above: listen to women, believe women. And thanks to the men in this thread already who ARE listening and engaged, that's also what a feminist looks like. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 8:56:13 GMT
In my last job I worked with a couple of men who behaved as though they were my (and other women's) bosses, even though we were all equal in status. They would order people around, behave as though their ideas were better than everyone else's, ridicule women's ideas and talk over them in meetings - the usual thing. The weird thing for me was to observe the way that other women allowed this to happen without complaint. They behaved as though those men did have more expertise etc. Many of the women seemed to indulge in low level flirtations with the men, which bolstered their sense of entitlement. When I challenged the behaviour by refusing to bow down to the men they made things very difficult for me and none of the other women came to my aid, keeping their heads down. I suppose that, even though those men were not in charge, they had close relationships with men who were powerful within the institution. On another subject: I don't think I have ever witnessed a relationship between heterosexual men and women where there was complete equality. The men always seem to be pandered to in some way. Women still seem to do more than their fair share of the housework and childcare. I honestly don't know how women can live like this. A lot of women seem to put male companionship above their own well being. Years of socialisation. A mother figure who didn’t model a different behaviour. Basically every single film, TV show and love song ever written. The Bible. What they were taught in school. The expectations And behaviours of everyone around them. You do realise that your question of “how do these women live like this?” is just another form of the patriarchal trope where women are constantly pitted against one another? If you have managed to live without these societal norms holding you back, how about you share what gave you your freedom and offer a helping hand up to others, rather than belittling the women that you so clearly think are beneath you? What you wrote is not feminist in any way. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 9:05:57 GMT
Well, perhaps men shouldn’t feel too comnfident about walking around at night given that they are more likely than women to be the victims of violence. At risk of giving you patriarchy 101...while men are far more likely to be violently attacked by a stranger than women, society is encoded with the belief that men aren’t responsible for the violence enacted against them, but women are. This is why, in the aftermath of a violent attack, men aren’t warned to stay home, drink less, walk home in pairs, wear something less provocative etc etc. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 9:08:52 GMT
I found Everyday Sexism a really eye-opening read about the kind of crap that happens on a day-to-day basis: it's not just about overt harrassment etc but the effect that the build-up of minor stuff over years. Helped me in recognizing and challenging some of this stuff. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 9:20:04 GMT
Yeah, it's worth remembering that women's experiences tend to be cumulative. If a man tells his female co-worker that he likes her skirt and she responds with anger, then it's nothing to do with that one man's hopefully well-intentioned compliment and everything to do with the fact that the woman will be in regular receipt of unprompted comments on her appearance from men and today she's fed up of it. When a man says "smile!" to a woman in the street, he might mean "I hope that a little friendly interaction will brighten your day" but it really does come across as "the appearance of your face displeases me and you should rearrange it to make it more pleasing to me" in the context of the constant stream of comments that come from all over the place.
The thing about sexual harassers is the same thing about serial killers - they look like everyone else. We don't know if your "hey, beautiful!" is a one-off comment with zero expectation attached, or if you're going to be the guy who follows it up by asking for more attention and then reacts with anger and violence when we politely turn you down. If 999 men out of 1,000 only ever mean well, there's still a risk that you're going to be the reason we die today, and with society constantly reminding us of things articulated beautifully up-thread by @happysooz, yeah, we're often way pricklier than you personally might deserve. Sorry not sorry.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 9:31:19 GMT
Well, perhaps men shouldn’t feel too comnfident about walking around at night given that they are more likely than women to be the victims of violence. As a man I have never been attacked ever. Except as a teenager and that was a prank really. A hard stare usually makes people back off (as Paddingtom does).
I do not recognise this world of constant harassment claimed by some women. Employers cannot dismiss people for no reason in Europe. Especially if this was preceded by unwanted sexual advances. Lawyers would be keen to meet any women this has happened to.
Young women need to `man up` and stand up to bullies who do this. By accepting this behaviour they are allowing the perpetrater to continues doing this to other women in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 9:55:57 GMT
Helped me in recognizing and challenging some of this stuff. Like this for example Young women need to `man up` .
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 10:10:20 GMT
I always laugh when people say "man up", like women aren't 800 times tougher than men because of all the additional nonsense we just have to put up with (up to and including crippling period pains that most men in the medical profession never take seriously even though there have been studies showing that yeah, actually, they can be as painful as a heart attack, and that li'l thing known as "giving birth"), and men can't be instantly felled by a well-aimed tap to the groin.  (Watch this dude come back and tell me I should therefore be giving out more well-aimed taps to the groin instead of just putting up with nonsense, like the answer to all of society's problems is "yeah, just, MORE violence, good plan".) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 11:02:45 GMT
Well, perhaps men shouldn’t feel too comnfident about walking around at night given that they are more likely than women to be the victims of violence. At risk of giving you patriarchy 101...while men are far more likely to be violently attacked by a stranger than women, society is encoded with the belief that men aren’t responsible for the violence enacted against them, but women are. This is why, in the aftermath of a violent attack, men aren’t warned to stay home, drink less, walk home in pairs, wear something less provocative etc etc. That is exactly my point. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 11:10:19 GMT
I won’t allow my point about my own experience within an institution be dismissed. I have had to learn to overcome my own fear so that I could stand beside other women when they are being harassed etc. If I don’t take that risk and support another woman then I am part of the problem. If you want one tip about finding the courage how about two or three women getting together to support a woman experiencing sexism in whatever form that comes in? Just acknowledging to a woman that you see the sexism is a start even if you don’t do so in public. It makes it easier for that woman to take action when she knows that someone else is validating her. Women of colour who work in mostly white institutions often find themselves isolated because white women just do not support them. I
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Post by Backdrifter on Nov 8, 2018 11:42:47 GMT
I have never seen anyone being groped in a bar. What do you mean by groped, touched on private parts or a hand on the middle back ? I think people have changed since my youth in the 1980s. In those days if you even said something a woman thought was disrespectful she would snap angrily at you. I guess there are a minority of men who think it is ok to touch women without consent. Depends on their upbringing and previous experiences. Most men would no way do this, and would call out any man who did. We just need telling about it. Like the Me-too movements. Complaining 30 years later is too late. Should be called the Too-late movement. As a bloke I had no fear of walking anywhere at all. Until Theresa May`s recent police cuts in London which has made me a bit wary on London`s streets. But this is how women have always felt, I guess. The point is that it's very difficult to complain or make a fuss there and then. Most of the MeToo movement centres on men of power exploiting women and we are often either in fear of physical violence or losing a job etc. Losing a job in the sense of (particularly 30 years ago) just being fired there and then, or losing a job in the sense of the more 'casting couch' scenarios that kicked this off of 'do what I say or you won't get a part' There are two things in general discourse that I find exasperating and they are at the root of so many problems in the way people discuss things: lazy thinking, and oversimplification. Both of those are behind both the "how come these women didn't say anything at the time, then?" and the "Just 'man' up and deal with it, don't just accept it" angles. It really isn't a simple case of A + B = C, problem solved, job done. Emi has articulated some of what is so completely wrong with this way of thinking. The situations women find themselves in are often complex issues - some women will wonder if they are the ones who did something wrong, or if they somehow unwittingly encouraged it, and this in itself is largely due to ingrained attitudes about women that seep into the minds of the women themselves. Then as Emi said, they will often be in a situation where challenging the offender means upsetting a man with power and authority who can make life very difficult for her, even to the extent of ensuring she loses her job. In the film industry, precarious enough as it is - even now, despite the bleatings of men about too many female leads when they are still a small minority - a man with authority can ensure someone doesn't just lose or not get that job, but never gets one again in that industry. In other types of organisation, as we've heard, there will not even be the possibility of support or sympathy from other women. There can be a culture of acceptance of it, enabling an ongoing situation that hardens in and makes it progressively difficult to crack. There are received attitudes about women being hysterical, unreliable, over-emotional, misinterpreting or over-reacting to what's surely just a harmless jokey mock-flirty interaction, in other words, just dismiss this ridiculous claim of harrassment or abuse. One of the women abused by Weinstein actually had a recording of him admitting to it. When she used this evidence to report him, he mobilised a team to ensure the media ruthlessly brief against her. She was torn to shreds in the press - not him, not the man on tape admitting what he'd done, but she was. When other women see this reaction to a woman who actually had evidence, what kind of encouragement is that for others to come forward? And on top of that, some men take the time-lag as "proof" that they are opportunistically making it up. Everything is heavily stacked against making women feel they should speak up. Anyone who says "oh yeah, why's it taken so long to say something?" might want to try thinking about this. Yet none of this will stop some men, far too many - and sadly, some women as well - from regurgitating the usual unthinking accusatory bile. |
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Post by Roxie on Nov 8, 2018 12:00:25 GMT
We have a long long way to go in changing the general attitudes towards women in today’s society. I had a bit of a shock recently - I live with my parents and my mum recently had an operation, and it wasn’t until she wasn’t able to do stuff for my dad that I realised how much she actually does for him! And how that all fell on me because I now had myself to look after myself (which is fine) but also a 70yr old man who cannot cook, or work any sort of domestic appliance apart from the microwave. My mum made a rod for my back a bit there as she has for the last 40 years fallen into the traditional domestic role of doing ALL housework. I find it laughable that a fully grown man can’t work an oven or a washing machine, but it was such a different world back then! One thing that bugs me is when I hear women say ‘oh I’m so lucky he cooks and helps out around the house’ or men say ‘I’ve done the dishes for you.’ NO, you’re not lucky, that’s how it should be. And you’ve not done the dishes FOR the women, it’s cos I assume you don’t want to live in squalor! There is SUCH a generational gap in attitudes between my parents and mine, I’m glad attitudes are changing, but there’s still so far to go. As for the sexual assault issue, ANY form of unwanted touching in intimate areas is sexual assault. Personally, for me, I tend to get my arse grabbed. I used to accept it as one of those things that happens but I’ve become more empowered lately, and I won’t put up with it anymore. I was in a Wetherspoons recently and a man was trying to get served and the staff refused him because a woman had complained to them he’d grabbed her bum. Good on them! And I’m loving the men who are engaging in this thread and trying to learn and understand things from a woman’s perspective  |
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Post by Roxie on Nov 8, 2018 12:08:46 GMT
Oh and I 100% agree that the term ‘man-up’ is ridiculous. If men had to put up with the physiological things women have to go though, as well as all the intimidation and abuse and sexism, they wouldn’t know what hit them.
I also think Some men need to not be afraid of the the word ‘Feminist’ it doesn’t mean man hater. I love men! It’s about equality. It’s about standing up speaking out against the injustices women face every day. And there’s no reason at all why a man can’t be a feminist. I loved Emma Watson’s He for She movement. If you’re a decent man, maybe you have a wife, maybe you have a daughter, if you think they should be afforded the same opportunities as men then guess what? You’re a FEMINIST!
Big big appreciation to all the decent men out there who are trying to understand the issues women face and support them. It’s like someone said upthread, if you have a privilege you should use it. I will use my white privileged to speak up against any racism I see, and I would hope men would speak up for women.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 12:28:31 GMT
Young women need to `man up` and stand up to bullies who do this. By accepting this behaviour they are allowing the perpetrater to continues doing this to other women in the future. The problem, I think, is that you can't stand up to something that a sizable part of the population don't acknowledge in the first place. That's trying to stand up to steam, isn't it. This is a really great way of describing this. Totally stealing these words. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 12:32:36 GMT
I've been using "dragon spirit" and "dragon up" instead of man up. YMMV but I find mythical creatures far more useful than boring gender stereotypes.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 12:47:49 GMT
I won’t allow my point about my own experience within an institution be dismissed. I have had to learn to overcome my own fear so that I could stand beside other women when they are being harassed etc. If I don’t take that risk and support another woman then I am part of the problem. If you want one tip about finding the courage how about two or three women getting together to support a woman experiencing sexism in whatever form that comes in? Just acknowledging to a woman that you see the sexism is a start even if you don’t do so in public. It makes it easier for that woman to take action when she knows that someone else is validating her. Women of colour who work in mostly white institutions often find themselves isolated because white women just do not support them. I I haven't dismissed your experience within an institution. I just disagree with a bunch of your comments. I do agree that WOC in mostly white institutions often aren't supported by white women, and that many white feminists urgently need to understand intersectional feminism. What I don't think is helpful is a sort of creeping demonisation of white feminists though. I always sense the hand of the dominant power structure at play when white feminists are being pitted against feminists of colour. It feels like a distraction technique (look at the elephant! look at how terrible white women are to black women! look at these cis-gendered feminists!) that keeps us from dealing with things like income inequality and pervasive violence against women. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 13:04:10 GMT
The unwanted physical sexual attention at work hopefully stopped many years back. I work in an office and have done for nearly 30 years, my company employs more women than men and our CEO is a woman who has worked her way up through the ranks.
Everyone has their own physical boundaries, some people will hug each other if they haven't seen someone for a while others wouldn't dream of doing it, a lot depends on who the person is.
As I've said before for a few years one of my roles was issuing security passes and completing HR forms for new starters and when an attractive person of either sex started I'd sometimes get e-mails from both men and women asking what that person's name was.
Paying someone a compliment to say they look nice or smart I wouldn't find offensive but that might be in a group of friends or colleagues and that is different to a stranger cat calling or wolf whistling someone.
I'm a white male, right leaning politically straight guy so people may say I don't understand BAME, Feminist, LGBT issues. Maybe I don't understand them as deeply as people from within those groups do but I try to be aware of them and know many people from those groups and just treat them as I'd treat anyone else. I often find having a discussion with someone who has opposing views more interesting than people who share my views.
I help fund some gigs that a friend promotes and we went to watch who I thought were a rather strident, punk, female feminist band last week with a view to booking them. I was apprehensive about considering booking this band but after talking to them afterwards I was laughing and joking with them after a few minutes and we have agreed to book them next year.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 15:58:28 GMT
People have said it more articulately than I above, but the very use of 'man up' to women as a solution to both the engrained misogyny and abusive behaviour that's acceptable in society and as a threat of physical violence exactly what is wrong.
On the latter point, I'm pretty physically strong, and of medium height so there's an outside chance I could fend off, say a skinny guy under 6ft. I'd go as far as to say in a domestic situation I could at least fight my way out to safety (hypothetically) But I'm 5'6" and still a woman who isn't say, a body builder. I have no chance at all against a man in the street who is physically able to overpower me through sheer size, as statistically speaking a large portion of the male population are able to do. Man Up and fight back is not an option.
And I'll tell you what happens to women who speak out against office based or street harassment: they get fired of shouted at and harassed worse. Ever tried answering back a pack of builder or 'youths' bent on shouting something? it escalates it.
But it's the age old thing isn't it? instead of teaching men not to rape, we teach women how to avoid being raped.
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