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Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 18, 2019 13:34:41 GMT
I wonder what the Pastor thought about her taking this role on?
Maybe she’s gay. Maybe this was some way of testing the water with her father. Opening the doors her coming out.
Maybe I’m just reading too much into this 😮
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 18, 2019 13:36:33 GMT
I've been in America for 14 days so I've only seen snippets of the story on twitter. Whilst I believe everybody has a right to say what they think, I do find it a little awkward that she's going to play a character that explores her sexuality an awful lot, and that she is in an industry which has a lot of LGBTQ+ people that she is openly working alongside. Seems a little hypocritical if you ask me... It's a shame as I was really wondering whether to go see this production, but with her in the lead, I doubt I will. The producers and casting directors couldn't have known this beforehand, shame as it will take a toll on the production. I cannot agree that everyone has the right to say what they think I would agree that people have the right to think whatever they like, to hold whatever opinions they like - no matter how unpleasant But freedom of expression does not give you carte blanche to say whatever you want. There are limits - we can argue what those limits should be - but limits are absolutely necessary. |
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 18, 2019 13:57:47 GMT
^I think she could make a good argument that she is entitled to freedom of speech on her own Facebook page. I completely disagree with her (being a gay man) but I do think it’s not as simple as it might first appear. It would be much clearer if she was disrespectful, rude or discriminatory in her actions to an LGBT coworker because of their sexual orientation. She has her opinions but has she actualised them in reality? She hasn’t advocated violence against LGBT people or issued threats. If she treats LGBT colleagues with respect, dignity and professionalism in the workplace, then I suspect it would be more difficult to remove her legally. I am beginning to think her silence on the issue means her views haven’t evolved though. The production could make a good argument that they are entitled to not accept discrimination. Making this statements publicly is already actualizing them. It per definition means no respect, no dignity and no professionalism towards the producers, her co-workers, the production itself and the public. Actual violence or threats are not the only reason to stop a collaboration. Though her actions already are a big threat to the production... |
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Post by anthem on Mar 18, 2019 13:59:13 GMT
^There are already limits to freedom of speech- incitement to hatred laws and defamation/ libel laws. Nothing she has written comes close to incitement to hatred, at least from what we’ve seen.
I do think we have to be careful about jumping the gun on it. When it comes down to it, she wrote on her personal Facebook account that she doesn’t think homosexuality is right. However abhorrent and offensive that is to me, are we to stop people from expressing any contrary view in public? Suppose it was an atheist expressing a view that Christianity or Islam isn’t right on their Facebook page- would we be asking for them to be removed from a production? Its complicated and sensitive territory. I know religion is a choice and sexuality isn’t but the law doesn’t make that distinction, that I know of anyways.
If there is other evidence to show that she has or would discriminate against an LGBT colleague, or would treat them with disrespect in a work context, then she should absolutely be removed but I suspect more than a Facebook post would be needed to do so lawfully.
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Post by kulen on Mar 18, 2019 14:09:26 GMT
I've just made a call to the box office asking what will happen if they make the choice for her to continue and whether we will be able to see an alternate or whether they will honour refunds. They've said obviously they won't be able to say anything until an official statement is released, but they've had a number of calls today regarding the situation and they will be putting all concerns forward to the team making decisions. She sounded very much supportive and understanding of my feelings toward it. You must be bored aren’t you? You go to see a SHOW not to hear her speak about her views regarding the LGBTQ+ community. Sad you want to ruin somebody else’s career because you don’t align yourself to her views. |
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Post by LaLuPone on Mar 18, 2019 14:13:32 GMT
I've just made a call to the box office asking what will happen if they make the choice for her to continue and whether we will be able to see an alternate or whether they will honour refunds. They've said obviously they won't be able to say anything until an official statement is released, but they've had a number of calls today regarding the situation and they will be putting all concerns forward to the team making decisions. She sounded very much supportive and understanding of my feelings toward it. You must be bored aren’t you? You go to see a SHOW not to hear her speak about her views regarding the LGBTQ+ community. Sad you want to ruin somebody else’s career because you don’t align yourself to her views. I wouldn’t go and see her in it either, and I doubt many people from the LGBT+ community would. Some of my ticket money goes in to her paycheck and I don’t want to give a penny to a person who tries to tell me that THE WAY I WAS BORN is somehow wrong or even a sin. End of. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 18, 2019 14:16:26 GMT
FFS - this is not about a simple expression of views - it is about bigotry. Denying LGBT+ people their identities because it doesn't conform to her chosen religion is NEVER acceptable.
She is the one who is ruining her career by not immediately stepping up and demonstrating how she now repudiates her 2014 position and how she is now fully supportive of LGBT+ rights.
Daniel was absolutely right to contact the theatre to ask what the situation would be with regards to refunds in this situation. He isn't trying to ruin anyone's career - he is trying to make sure that he is making an informed choice as to whether to buy a ticket or not.
I can't help but feel that if it was bigotry aimed at a different community that perhaps we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It seems that queer-bashing is still something that can be explained away by some. And that depresses me more than I can express.
There should be no safe spaces for bigots anywhere. Call them out. Boycott them. Make their lives difficult. Hold them accountable for their hatred.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 14:16:46 GMT
I've been in America for 14 days so I've only seen snippets of the story on twitter. Whilst I believe everybody has a right to say what they think, I do find it a little awkward that she's going to play a character that explores her sexuality an awful lot, and that she is in an industry which has a lot of LGBTQ+ people that she is openly working alongside. Seems a little hypocritical if you ask me... It's a shame as I was really wondering whether to go see this production, but with her in the lead, I doubt I will. The producers and casting directors couldn't have known this beforehand, shame as it will take a toll on the production. I cannot agree that everyone has the right to say what they think I would agree that people have the right to think whatever they like, to hold whatever opinions they like - no matter how unpleasant But freedom of expression does not give you carte blanche to say whatever you want.
There are limits - we can argue what those limits should be - but limits are absolutely necessary. But isn't that exactly what freedom of expression does. The consequences of what one says are very different but that shouldn't stop someone from being able to express one's own opinions, no matter how awful they are. Sometimes hard lessons have to be learned in order for progress to be made. She may end up staying in this show through no fault of the efforts of others to (rightly) try to remove her BUT what happens after that may be the silver lining. Will other cast members walk? Will the audience turn up? Will she work again? If she doesn't walk away from this show, it speaks volumes about her and no-one else. The sad thing about this whole situation is that even if she stays in the production, there will still be plenty of people who will go to see the show, effectively supporting her. They're the people who worry me more really. |
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 18, 2019 14:18:00 GMT
As an atheist I am deeply uncomfortable with someone being fired for their religious views - which these, as abhorrent as they are - clearly are. Freedom of religion and freedom from religion go hand-in-hand, She should resign How comfortable are you with the fact that she says that people can not be born gay and homosexuality is not right? That the existence of people who were born a certain way is "not right". Freedom of religion and freedom from religion are 2 completely different things. I am not uncomfortable at all with someone being fired for severe discrimination. I don't care where it comes from. |
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Post by HereForTheatre on Mar 18, 2019 14:18:13 GMT
The issue is not just her disagreeing with homosexuality, the issue is her playing a LGBT role when we know she has those views. It doesn't fit. You cannot buy into her performance, she cannot fully associate with the person she is playing, and it is wrong.
To me the things are separate. She has her views and can have her views, but she can't have those views and play a gay character. End of.
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Post by Steve on Mar 18, 2019 14:18:19 GMT
I wonder what the Pastor thought about her taking this role on? Maybe she’s gay. Maybe this was some way of testing the water with her father. Opening the doors her coming out. Maybe I’m just reading too much into this 😮 I find I'm worried for her, and wish her well.
The idea that a young girl, with a father with detestable views, who opposes those views by taking this role, opposing her family and her "God," could be made an example of for an ill-judged four year old Facebook post, pushed into an impossible corner and spotlight where she may not know up from down, and may have few people or places to turn to, doesn't sit well with me.
Though I think the bigoted interpretation of the Bible she was brainwashed into believing is harmful, to herself and everybody else, she deserves a little human compassion for being born into impossible circumstances.
I mean, Brexit has shown us how anybody will believe anything if it's said often enough, and that's only the Daily Fail and the Murdoch propaganda machine in operation, let alone your own family, your preacher father, his congregation, and your God!  |
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Post by kulen on Mar 18, 2019 14:19:57 GMT
FFS - this is not about a simple expression of views - it is about bigotry. Denying LGBT+ people their identities because it doesn't conform to her chosen religion is NEVER acceptable. She is the one who is ruining her career by not immediately stepping up and demonstrating how she now repudiates her 2014 position and how she is now fully supportive of LGBT+ rights. Daniel was absolutely right to contact the theatre to ask what the situation would be with regards to refunds in this situation. He isn't trying to ruin anyone's career - he is trying to make sure that he is making an informed choice as to whether to buy a ticket or not. I can't help but feel that if it was bigotry aimed at a different community that perhaps we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It seems that queer-bashing is still something that can be explained away by some. And that depresses me more than I can express. There should be no safe spaces for bigots anywhere. Call them out. Boycott them. Make their lives difficult. Hold them accountable for their hatred. That’s hilarious when the LGBT community stands for love and acceptance when you are calling for her life to be “difficult”, DOUBLE STANDARDS. If u don’t like her views fine but don’t ruin her career! |
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Post by Seriously on Mar 18, 2019 14:23:06 GMT
Has she actually done anything to anyone?
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Post by kulen on Mar 18, 2019 14:24:15 GMT
Has she actually done anything to anyone? Nope just put a post on Facebook saying she doesn’t agree with it and she didn’t participate in a pride promotional video (which is fine!) |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 18, 2019 14:24:25 GMT
Bigots should never be allowed to get away with it. Their intolerance and hatred can never be tolerated. They should exposed for what they are.
They are the ones who ruin lives. It is only right that they reap what they sew.
And if you can't see that, then you are part of the problem
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 14:24:52 GMT
FFS - this is not about a simple expression of views - it is about bigotry. Denying LGBT+ people their identities because it doesn't conform to her chosen religion is NEVER acceptable. She is the one who is ruining her career by not immediately stepping up and demonstrating how she now repudiates her 2014 position and how she is now fully supportive of LGBT+ rights. Daniel was absolutely right to contact the theatre to ask what the situation would be with regards to refunds in this situation. He isn't trying to ruin anyone's career - he is trying to make sure that he is making an informed choice as to whether to buy a ticket or not. I can't help but feel that if it was bigotry aimed at a different community that perhaps we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It seems that queer-bashing is still something that can be explained away by some. And that depresses me more than I can express. There should be no safe spaces for bigots anywhere. Call them out. Boycott them. Make their lives difficult. Hold them accountable for their hatred. That’s hilarious when the LGBT community stands for love and acceptance when you are calling for her life to be “difficult”, DOUBLE STANDARDS. If u don’t like her views fine but don’t ruin her career! I don't think he's necessarily advocating ruining her career (I think she's probably doing a fair job of that by herself at the moment) but he's quite rightly highlighting that she should absolutely not be playing this role in this particular show. And that is absolutely correct. Perhaps she can find a show that is more in line with her views to star in? |
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Post by sparky5000 on Mar 18, 2019 14:25:26 GMT
Whilst I of course totally disagree with her views and find them problematic given the role she’s taking on, I personally dislike how this has all come about. I don’t think it’s right at all that the Hamilton actor publicly put this all out there on social media without first discussing his concerns with her or the show’s producers etc. The court of social media these days ends careers before people even have a chance to give their side, and that’s not right as far as I am concerned. Maybe her views have evolved. Maybe not. But I doubt it matters now either way. There’s no way I see her continuing in the role.
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Post by Seriously on Mar 18, 2019 14:29:09 GMT
Bigots should never be allowed to get away with it. Their intolerance and hatred can never be tolerated. They should exposed for what they are. They are the ones who ruin lives. It is only right that they reap what they sew. And if you can't see that, then you are part of the problem Well, thanks for letting me know I'm part of the problem. I'll hand back my Gay Card at the next AGM. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 18, 2019 14:31:59 GMT
Bigots should never be allowed to get away with it. Their intolerance and hatred can never be tolerated. They should exposed for what they are. They are the ones who ruin lives. It is only right that they reap what they sew. And if you can't see that, then you are part of the problem Well, thanks for letting me know I'm part of the problem. I'll hand back my Gay Card at the next AGM. If you are not prepared to stand up to anti-LGBT+ bigotry, then I do believe you are part of the problem. It is painful that we still have to have these fights - but we clearly do. We have to keep calling out the bigots and fighting those who question our right to exist. It would be great if we could sit back and say 'job done' - but we can't. We have to stand up and challenge those who seek to deny us basic rights. |
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Post by Seriously on Mar 18, 2019 14:37:07 GMT
Well, thanks for letting me know I'm part of the problem. I'll hand back my Gay Card at the next AGM. If you are not prepared to stand up to anti-LGBT+ bigotry, then I do believe you are part of the problem. It is painful that we still have to have these fights - but we clearly do. We have to keep calling out the bigots and fighting those who question our right to exist. It would be great if we could sit back and say 'job done' - but we can't. We have to stand up and challenge those who seek to deny us basic rights. I would stand up to her bigotry by talking to her, and helping her see the error of her ways. |
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 18, 2019 14:38:48 GMT
Has she actually done anything to anyone? She denied a whole group of people their existence, which is about as bad a discrimination can get, but I'm not sure if it was her speaking or her made up god. She also shows total disrespect for her co-actors, the production and the story itself, by expressing these views. But who knows. She might not be responsible for her views, post and actions at all. What can you do when god takes over. |
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Post by duncan on Mar 18, 2019 14:43:14 GMT
There seems to be an awful lot of bigotry and hatred towards religion in this thread about bigotry and hatred.
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 18, 2019 14:43:38 GMT
That’s hilarious when the LGBT community stands for love and acceptance when you are calling for her life to be “difficult”, DOUBLE STANDARDS. If u don’t like her views fine but don’t ruin her career! So telling someone off on their hatred views is the same as telling a whole group of people they can't exist based on sexual orientation out of hatred. Interesting view. And claiming others ruin her career is the same as going to the Jerry Springer show and slap the woman your husband slept with and not saying anything to him as if he has no say in what happens in his sex life at all. Blaming the whole world for his sex life. Stupid. |
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 18, 2019 14:45:11 GMT
There seems to be an awful lot of bigotry and hatred towards religion in this thread about bigotry and hatred. Hating unfounded hatred is a good thing. Are you confused by the difference? |
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Post by kathryn on Mar 18, 2019 15:02:34 GMT
As an atheist I am deeply uncomfortable with someone being fired for their religious views - which these, as abhorrent as they are - clearly are. Freedom of religion and freedom from religion go hand-in-hand, She should resign How comfortable are you with the fact that she says that people can not be born gay and homosexuality is not right? That the existence of people who were born a certain way is "not right". Freedom of religion and freedom from religion are 2 completely different things. I am not uncomfortable at all with someone being fired for severe discrimination. I don't care where it comes from. I find her views abhorrent. But sometimes you have to defend people's right to express views even when you find them abhorrent. Note: sometimes, not always. This was a privately-expressed view, as far as I am aware. She didn't express this view in her workplace. She didn't, as far as we know, discriminate against anyone - there's no account of her actually treating anyone differently because of their sexuality, and she works in an industry where there are many gay people. I find it hard to believe that such accounts would not have come to light by now if they existed. The fact that she decided to work in a notoriously LGBT-friendly industry and perform in gay-themed shows and even play a gay character is, frankly, bizarre, given her stated view. A bit of me wonders if there's more here than meets the eye. As it stands, her presence in the show will harm the production, and she should recognise that and resign. Legally I don't think the producers can fire her, and morally I don't think they should. It's a bad precedent to set. |
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