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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 25, 2018 21:55:42 GMT
Always a very interesting read on a Monday and that in the Broadway Grosses. Tells you what shows are live and kicking and what ones are mortally wounded. Also helps me when I plan my trips.
Should we have West End Grosses?
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Post by Jon on Jun 25, 2018 22:04:19 GMT
I used to think we should for nosiness reasons but on the other hand, having a show's grosses published might end up leading to shows closing a lot sooner.
Sonia Friedman once said in an interview that she's glad grosses aren't published in the West End because a show can be judged on its artistic merit rather than how much it's making and that's a fair point
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Post by learfan on Jun 26, 2018 4:17:45 GMT
This was a topic a while ago. Broadway has published takings for years and years and in this day and age i can see no good reason for the WE not to follow suit. The figures are obviously out there. Rather oddly for me the feeling here previously was that people didn't seem bothered. The Stage has recently published their own table, but it's not "official".
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Post by learfan on Jun 26, 2018 4:19:53 GMT
I used to think we should for nosiness reasons but on the other hand, having a show's grosses published might end up leading to shows closing a lot sooner. Sonia Friedman once said in an interview that she's glad grosses aren't published in the West End because a show can be judged on its artistic merit rather than how much it's making and that's a fair point Usually the difference between here and NY. As with other entertainments,its always seen as a business over there. Which of course it is. |
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Post by steve10086 on Jun 26, 2018 6:55:39 GMT
This was a topic a while ago. Broadway has published takings for years and years and in this day and age i can see no good reason for the WE not to follow suit. The figures are obviously out there. Rather oddly for me the feeling here previously was that people didn't seem bothered. The Stage has recently published their own table, but it's not "official". The “good reason” is that there is no need for it. See a show if you want to, or don’t, up to you. But you have no need to know its finances. What I find odd is that people feel this is something that should be public knowledge. What has it got to do with anyone but the producer? |
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Post by viserys on Jun 26, 2018 7:08:38 GMT
I think it's more to do with wanting to see how your favorite shows are doing - are they still selling out regularly or just scrapping by with plenty of discounts (making it more likely that they'll close soon and you might want to try and catch them a few more times before that) and being curious to see how new shows are doing, are they finding an audience and selling out or can't they put bums on seats at all?
I don't really need to see the detailed finances as listed in the weekly Broadway Grosses where it seems to have become a competition of "breaking the $1m barreer every week and who can do more?!", but just some vague idea of "Show A played to 95% capacity at an average ticket price of £70, Show B played to 100% capacity at an average ticket price of £90, Show C played to 50% capacity at an average ticket price of £30" etc. which would tell me that Show A is doing well, Show B is a smash hit and Show C is really struggling and will not be long for the West End.
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Post by kathryn on Jun 26, 2018 8:47:12 GMT
I'd be wary of it over here, I think, because you just know the tabloids would weaponize the information whenever someone they've got a hate-on for was in a show that wasn't selling out. We'd end up spending endless hours trying to explain the context of West End theatre economics to people.
I don't think anyone *really* needs to know - it's fairly obvious from the prevalence of offers which shows are not selling that well.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2018 11:44:45 GMT
What I find odd is that people feel this is something that should be public knowledge. I find it odd too. You don't get the same attitude with other types of business: when you catch a train or buy food in a supermarket or stay in a hotel you don't expect to know how well the business is doing, so why with theatre? It's not as if it's any measure of quality. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2018 12:44:55 GMT
I'd be wary of it over here, I think, because you just know the tabloids would weaponize the information whenever someone they've got a hate-on for was in a show that wasn't selling out. We'd end up spending endless hours trying to explain the context of West End theatre economics to people. I don't think anyone *really* needs to know - it's fairly obvious from the prevalence of offers which shows are not selling that well. Tend to agree. Massive can of worms. I do wonder how many Broadway shows have seen an untimely closure due to published grosses. Had that information not been readily available might some shows have suffered less as a result? If people know its not doing well, then are they likely to visit it in turn crashing out the figures more so. |
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Post by Jon on Jun 26, 2018 12:47:37 GMT
What I find odd is that people feel this is something that should be public knowledge. I find it odd too. You don't get the same attitude with other types of business: when you catch a train or buy food in a supermarket or stay in a hotel you don't expect to know how well the business is doing, so why with theatre? It's not as if it's any measure of quality. I suppose theatre is entertainment and there’s no taboo with having film grosses published or how many books or albums have been sold so I can understand why people think the grosses should be published. |
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Post by Jon on Jun 26, 2018 12:50:41 GMT
I'd be wary of it over here, I think, because you just know the tabloids would weaponize the information whenever someone they've got a hate-on for was in a show that wasn't selling out. We'd end up spending endless hours trying to explain the context of West End theatre economics to people. I don't think anyone *really* needs to know - it's fairly obvious from the prevalence of offers which shows are not selling that well. Tend to agree. Massive can of worms. I do wonder how many Broadway shows have seen an untimely closure due to published grosses. Had that information not been readily available might some shows have suffered less as a result? If people know its not doing well, then are they likely to visit it in turn crashing out the figures more so. On the flip side, having the grosses available would make a show more accountable, I wouldn’t be shocked if some shows do keep seats back to give the illusion a show is doing well. |
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jun 26, 2018 14:36:45 GMT
Accountable to whom? It’s none of my business if Lion King or Mormon don’t sell all the seats for what ever reason
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2018 15:34:24 GMT
I wouldn’t be shocked if some shows do keep seats back to give the illusion a show is doing well. I've never understood why this is an issue. Surely the only thing that matters is whether a show appeals enough to be worth trying and is good enough to be enjoyable. If the premise of a show (or a film, or a book) looks intriguing then I'll give it a try, and if I enjoy it then I've enjoyed it. My interest and enjoyment don't get nullified because it turns out that the product isn't as popular as I believed. |
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Post by jaqs on Jun 26, 2018 20:18:21 GMT
I have to publish my accounts through companies house for my one man band company of no consequence.
The company I work in publishes it's financial statement quarterly.
Sports events and concert tours announce attendance figures.
Films, books, tv have charts.
I don't know why theatre is so private about it. Other than having an annual west end attendance is up 2% or whatever.
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Post by sf on Jun 26, 2018 20:22:10 GMT
I think it's more to do with wanting to see how your favorite shows are doing - are they still selling out regularly or just scrapping by with plenty of discounts (making it more likely that they'll close soon and you might want to try and catch them a few more times before that) and being curious to see how new shows are doing, are they finding an audience and selling out or can't they put bums on seats at all? I don't really need to see the detailed finances as listed in the weekly Broadway Grosses where it seems to have become a competition of "breaking the $1m barreer every week and who can do more?!", but just some vague idea of "Show A played to 95% capacity at an average ticket price of £70, Show B played to 100% capacity at an average ticket price of £90, Show C played to 50% capacity at an average ticket price of £30" etc. which would tell me that Show A is doing well, Show B is a smash hit and Show C is really struggling and will not be long for the West End.
Of course from the producer's point of view that's a good reason not to publish grosses: you could use that information to inform a decision about whether to buy a ticket full price or look for a discount. Why would a producer want to give you information that might encourage you to spend less on their product?
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Post by steve10086 on Jun 26, 2018 20:38:23 GMT
I have to publish my accounts through companies house for my one man band company of no consequence. The company I work in publishes it's financial statement quarterly. Sports events and concert tours announce attendance figures. Films, books, tv have charts. I don't know why theatre is so private about it. Other than having an annual west end attendance is up 2% or whatever. And the producer of the show has to publish their accounts too. So (non-existent) problem solved. |
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Post by Mark on Jun 26, 2018 23:35:27 GMT
I think we'd be in for a bit of a shock if they were published, I do wonder how many shows suffer from Margaritaville level attendance in London - many sows that I attend midweek seem to be at around the half full level.
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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 27, 2018 0:06:08 GMT
I think we'd be in for a bit of a shock if they were published, I do wonder how many shows suffer from Margaritaville level attendance in London - many sows that I attend midweek seem to be at around the half full level. But those midweek shows can bring home the bacon. 🐷🐷🐷 |
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Post by viserys on Jun 27, 2018 5:49:56 GMT
Of course from the producer's point of view that's a good reason not to publish grosses: you could use that information to inform a decision about whether to buy a ticket full price or look for a discount. Why would a producer want to give you information that might encourage you to spend less on their product?
But that kind of information is "out there" anyway, isn't it? You can look at the TKTS website every day and follow it for some days to get an idea of which shows are on there daily, you can check TodayTix daily to see what's being offered and of course you see other general discounts floating around. You can also study seating plans for any on-going week to check if there are only a few seats left or wide swathes of empty rows. I honestly think it's only a bunch of obsessive fans and theatre-goers that pore over the Broadway Grosses every week and it would be the same here, but I don't really care THAT much anyway. I'm just nosey  |
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Post by theatreian on Jun 27, 2018 8:15:34 GMT
I guess actual figures in £s can be misleading due to ticket prices etc but maybe it would be interesting to see what percentage of tickets was sold each week for shows. However that may cause its own problems due to possibly shortening the life of a show that may be doing poorly. It's not as straightforward as it first seems!
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Post by sf on Jun 27, 2018 9:08:16 GMT
Of course from the producer's point of view that's a good reason not to publish grosses: you could use that information to inform a decision about whether to buy a ticket full price or look for a discount. Why would a producer want to give you information that might encourage you to spend less on their product?
But that kind of information is "out there" anyway, isn't it? You can look at the TKTS website every day and follow it for some days to get an idea of which shows are on there daily, you can check TodayTix daily to see what's being offered and of course you see other general discounts floating around. You can also study seating plans for any on-going week to check if there are only a few seats left or wide swathes of empty rows. I honestly think it's only a bunch of obsessive fans and theatre-goers that pore over the Broadway Grosses every week and it would be the same here, but I don't really care THAT much anyway. I'm just nosey Only somewhat out there. It's not the same as seeing a weekly chart on playbill.com which shows the percentage of seats sold and the average ticket price. |
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Post by kathryn on Jun 27, 2018 10:08:36 GMT
Do we really want the sort of theatre box-office reporting that plagues the film industry? There's all sorts of funny shenanigans that go down because the opening weekend box office take is treated like a marketing opportunity.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2018 22:41:41 GMT
Exactly it is a marketing opportunity. Like the pop-music charts.
I do think people in the UK have different attitude to money than the US. They are less likely to be happy with someone else's success than in the US.
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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 27, 2018 23:46:03 GMT
I think we'd be in for a bit of a shock if they were published, I do wonder how many shows suffer from Margaritaville level attendance in London - many sows that I attend midweek seem to be at around the half full level. I would hazard a guess some plays don’t even make £100k a week and would be shocked at how much dosh The West End earns. But saying that if Hamilton shifted all their tickets with an average price of £200 then the gross would be £2.48m a week, which is a nice little earner. Do we really want the sort of theatre box-office reporting that plagues the film industry? There's all sorts of funny shenanigans that go down because the opening weekend box office take is treated like a marketing opportunity. No if they are reported it has to be accurate, just like they do on Broadway, film industry is a poor example, as we don’t use first weekend grosses in the theatre industry, so there is no need to be inaccurate. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 8:33:15 GMT
The numbers may have to be accurate but that doesn't mean they can't spin it.
Just look at people shaking their heads over the death of marriage as an institution because 42% of marriages are ending in divorce. It's a true figure, and a fairly large one, but if that's what you choose to focus on, then you're overlooking the fact that the overall divorce rate is actually down, that fewer people are getting married in the first place because we call it "co-habitation" now rather than "living in sin", that 58% of marriages *not* ending in divorce is still the larger figure, and that even if it is a large number of divorces, it doesn't automatically follow that there are fewer happy marriages when it's more likely that people have an actual escape route from their unhappy marriages these days.
It's not too hard to imagine a scenario where a cheap-to-run play is hounded from its theatre with reports of low mid-week ticket sales, even though a half-full Saturday matinee is more than enough to run the show all week and weekend sales are great. (But hey, if they ever *did* want to kill off The Mousetrap.....)
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