4,987 posts
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Post by Someone in a tree on May 10, 2018 7:52:56 GMT
After finally seeing Chess my head is awash with how I would fix the book and make it work dramatically, or rather make it work for me!
Chess is now on my ‘I can fix it’ pile with Candide, Road Show and The Frogs. As you can properly tell from my post I have no theatrical knowledge so it’s all just day dreaming and the chance to listen to endless recordings and trawl the net for snippets of information.
Does anyone else do this or it just me with delusional dreams?
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 8:23:44 GMT
La Cage Aux Folles is an absolutely wonderful musical, and Jean-Michel is a little turd. ALL THEY NEEDED TO DO was have Anne be the one who lied to her father (which I believe was the case in the original play/film?). They can still have the emotional journey of being disappointed that Jean-Michel would rather go along with the deception than be proud of his fathers, and honestly Anne's not that deep a character that we need the uncertainty of will she or won't she accept Jean-Michel's family for who they are, as long as it's reasonably clear she lied to her father because she was panicking rather than out of malice.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2018 9:46:37 GMT
I've often thought about the book of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory could've been improved after I saw it in London. Maybe place the interval after Augustus Gloop's demise (causing tension and uncertainty for the other characters), find a way that the news segments don't seem so clunky in act one, give Charlie some sort of purpose throughout the factory tour (maybe he could attempt to help the others despite how horrible they are which shows he's a good kid?) and of course, add the rest of the Leslie Bricusse/Anthony Newley songs in (give it the full Mary Poppins treatment). Oh and finally, make it more about chocolate! I kept forgetting it was a chocolate factory they were going round, instead just a weird colourful place.
But, having seen a few clips of the Broadway production, I now have lost all hope for it.
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Post by Mr Snow on May 10, 2018 10:29:41 GMT
I like this thread
The Sound of Music needs some edge?
Not all the guards at that concert hall would have been asleep.
Last scene.
The family ascend the hill towards Switzerland, softly Lisle(?) starts humming “the Hills are alive….” When a shot rings out and she falls.
Maria starts to sing and the others join in as they race up the hill. One by one they are picked off as the Orchestra gets quieter.
Finally, Maria stands alone and turns to face her pursuers.
The curtain falls as she’s singing “’til you find your….”
A shot rings out…
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Post by Mr Snow on May 10, 2018 10:35:37 GMT
I've only seen the recent Menier production and I thought it worked very well? IN fact it's vaulted straight into my (admittedly huge) top 5 musicals list. For fans this is worth a listen. Some of the reasons why its had a 'problematical' history are discussed. www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0654110
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1,210 posts
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Post by musicalmarge on May 10, 2018 12:37:15 GMT
I think the biggest disappointment for many of us was Charlie and The Chocolate Factory. It just didn’t work. I sat there thinking of my set, new book, songs from the film and how everything SHOULD have been. Broadway added more songs but I hear made the set WORSE. Such a shame as the film is incredible!!!!
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653 posts
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Post by ptwest on May 10, 2018 17:49:23 GMT
Great idea for a thread.
I’ve always found the premise of Love Never Dies problematic, even though I thoroughly enjoyed the performance I saw (1st version I believe).
It’s hard to do this without major spoilers and I haven’t yet learnt how to do spoiler tags. So here goes. This would mean a major rewrite..
The big revelation at the end of act one which frankly you can see coming a mile off would not be the case as I just can’t see the events happening as described. But, for the phantom to play mind games with Raoul and the other characters e.g Meg, Mme Giry etc. To make them think this was the case and then watch the fallout unfold would have been far more satisfying in my opinion. Some of the gorgeous music in act one would need new lyrics.
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4,987 posts
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Post by Someone in a tree on May 11, 2018 7:28:19 GMT
I've only seen the recent Menier production and I thought it worked very well? IN fact it's vaulted straight into my (admittedly huge) top 5 musicals list. For fans this is worth a listen. Some of the reasons why its had a 'problematical' history are discussed. www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0654110
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4,987 posts
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Post by Someone in a tree on May 11, 2018 7:34:22 GMT
Candide - The MCF production was the best I’ve seen. To me this version really worked and it certainly didn’t drag. I also loved the new orchestrations and would love to hear them again.
In my version Old ladies first and second false entrance is included. As is We are Woman and Sheep Song, Quiet (Hal Prince version) and What’s the Use (NT version).
Maximillian will drag up in act two.
I have mixed feelings about the Chorales.
The Venice Gavotte (Are the two woman so stupid as to not recognise Candide / give them some respect) is out as is Kings' Barcarolle and Words, Words, Words.
Thanks for the Iplayer link. I can’t wait to listen to it this weekend.
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Post by Mr Snow on May 11, 2018 9:30:51 GMT
It’s been a loooong time since Dennis Lawson and Sian Philips hooked me into musical comedy with a WE revival of Pal Joey. I thought is so good I went about 5 times in one summer.
It doesn’t get revived despite some of the best songs ever, Bewitched, I could write a book (Lady is a Tramp in the film version) etc. I read an interview where Hytner said he wanted to do it but couldn’t work out a ‘fix’ the second half. I’ve never quite understood that. I’m sure just one more Rogers & Hart song added after the interval is needed. Also when it was first produced they were wary of the fact the main character is something of a ‘heel’. Today we are used to plots featuring this and an ending showing Joey, down on his luck until some new woman has the misfortune to meet his considerable charm could show the cyclical behaviour of such characters and end on a bittersweet upnote.
(Although in the age of “Me Too” the timing might not be right for a musical about a “loveable rogue”. There’s no suggestion of coercion, but a womaniser he remains.)
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848 posts
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Post by duncan on May 11, 2018 13:45:33 GMT
Love Never Dies - stunning ALW score, the rest of it was utter pants. The Phantom being revealed to Christine should be a massive moment in the show but I found it a tad meh!!
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 14:10:41 GMT
The main problem I had with Love Never Dies is that the Phantom is a multiple murderer who kills whenever he doesn't get what he wants, and somehow everyone else — and the show itself — acts as though this is a minor quirk of personality instead of a reason to keep the hell out of his reach forever.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 16:12:02 GMT
Liking this thread! I'm definitely up for rewriting Love Never Dies.
I hate what they did to the Raoul character and also expecting us to believe that Christine chose him then nipped back half an hour later for a quickie with the Phantom anyway.
Should have been a trilogy really. Part 1 Raoul and Christine go off into the sunset, Part 2 The Phantom Strikes Back, and Part 3 Phantom dies saving Raoul/Christine/Gustav whatever and they go off into the sunset again.
Oh and blowing the finest song in the show as soon as the curtain rises.....
There's a reason one is still running after 32 years and it's not the music. I adore so much of the LND score, but the plot killed off any longevity in IMHO.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2018 19:13:28 GMT
I think the biggest disappointment for many of us was Charlie and The Chocolate Factory. It just didn’t work. I sat there thinking of my set, new book, songs from the film and how everything SHOULD have been. Broadway added more songs but I hear made the set WORSE. Such a shame as the film is incredible!!!! I disagree here. I think everyone went in with the pre-conception this was a musical of the original 1971 Movie. It wasn't. The movie, Willy Wonka & The Chocolate Factory was a variation of the original book, of the same title as the musical. But they were all separate entities. Its like saying The Phantom of the Opera was a massive failure because it didn't feature any of the music from the Lon Chaney film.
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253 posts
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Post by No. on May 11, 2018 21:17:31 GMT
I was thinking about The Addams Family the other day, and as much as I love the music none of it really makes any sense. Pugsley seems to be the only character in that show with any kind of logic.
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Post by max on May 11, 2018 22:52:54 GMT
I'll also bid for a rewrite of 'Love Never Dies'. It had plenty of story, but no subject matter; no 'reason to be'. Fans of 'Phantom' were insulted by the LND retcon of events in the original - with made out that Christine and the Phantom had...made out... when we weren't looking, during the original. Christine's young son Gustav in LND is pivotal. The Phantom becoming obsessed with him is interesting. But he didn't need to be the Phantom's biological son for this to happen. As well as annoying the fans to engineer that, it takes all the subject matter out of it, and reduces it to fan fiction plotting. Surely it's more interesting if the gift of music, that Gustav gets from his mother, is something the Phantom feels responsible for - and ownership of - having taught her secretly at the Paris opera house. In doing so he unlocked the music in Christine, stifled until then by grief for her dead father. Battles for possession of Gustav would then enact an exploration of where 'talent traits' come from - nature or nurture. The Phantom would feel that, united by some higher muse - via music - Gustav is truly his son, and he is his true father. Early in the show we could be introduced to some of the truly bizarre exhibits of Coney Island - bizarre because they are closer to our world than contortionists, clowns and stilt walkers. Imagine the weirdness of a song about the 'baby incubator' attraction: "for 40 years, from 1903 to 1943, America's premier amusement park was also home to a genuine life-and-death struggle, played out beside the surf. Martin Couney's Infant Incubator facility was one of Coney Island's most popular exhibits. "All the World Loves a Baby" read a sign above the entrance. Inside, premature babies fought for their lives, tended by a team of dedicated medical staff. To see the babies, you paid 25 cents. A guard-rail prevented visitors getting too close to the tiny figures encased in incubators" From BBC News websiteOddly, I think I first heard about this baby incubator exhibit in an interview with ALW. So, it's surprising this fascinating aspect didn't make it into the show, and wasn't recognised for its usefulness to the themes.
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Post by profquatermass on May 12, 2018 9:46:51 GMT
Mack and Mabel has been tinkered with a lot over the years but the book has never really worked. Personally I don't much like the book to Gypsy - June just drops out too quickly and it doesn't really explain why Rose doesn't just get a proper job is she hates showbiz so much (yes, I know what really happened but the show really doesn't have much to do with history)
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227 posts
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Post by paulbrownsey on May 13, 2018 11:40:53 GMT
It’s been a loooong time since Dennis Lawson and Sian Philips hooked me into musical comedy with a WE revival of Pal Joey. I thought is so good I went about 5 times in one summer. It doesn’t get revived despite some of the best songs ever, Bewitched, I could write a book (Lady is a Tramp in the film version) etc. I read an interview where Hytner said he wanted to do it but couldn’t work out a ‘fix’ the second half. I’ve never quite understood that. I’m sure just one more Rogers & Hart song added after the interval is needed. Also when it was first produced they were wary of the fact the main character is something of a ‘heel’. Today we are used to plots featuring this and an ending showing Joey, down on his luck until some new woman has the misfortune to meet his considerable charm could show the cyclical behaviour of such characters and end on a bittersweet upnote. (Although in the age of “Me Too” the timing might not be right for a musical about a “loveable rogue”. There’s no suggestion of coercion, but a womaniser he remains.) I think you are blinded by "Me Too" to what's going on in Pal Joey. Mrs Simpson is a rich predatory woman who makes Joey sleep with her before she will fund his night club. Or is it all right if a woman does it?
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2018 11:52:31 GMT
Another one for Chess here. It's long been both my musical theatre 'hill I will die on' but also 'Give me a month with that script and I'll sort it out Rice'
Controversial, but also predictable one for me: Rent. I've always considered it 'unfinished' as it never got the re-writes that no doubt would have happened before Broadway, and I'd love to get my hands on it and fix it.
I'm sad to say that short of a flame thrower to Coney Island I don't think much could have fixed LND for me though. And I didn't even get to see Ramin for my pain.
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Post by Mr Snow on May 14, 2018 6:32:01 GMT
It’s been a loooong time since Dennis Lawson and Sian Philips hooked me into musical comedy with a WE revival of Pal Joey. I thought is so good I went about 5 times in one summer. It doesn’t get revived despite some of the best songs ever, Bewitched, I could write a book (Lady is a Tramp in the film version) etc. I read an interview where Hytner said he wanted to do it but couldn’t work out a ‘fix’ the second half. I’ve never quite understood that. I’m sure just one more Rogers & Hart song added after the interval is needed. Also when it was first produced they were wary of the fact the main character is something of a ‘heel’. Today we are used to plots featuring this and an ending showing Joey, down on his luck until some new woman has the misfortune to meet his considerable charm could show the cyclical behaviour of such characters and end on a bittersweet upnote. (Although in the age of “Me Too” the timing might not be right for a musical about a “loveable rogue”. There’s no suggestion of coercion, but a womaniser he remains.) I think you are blinded by "Me Too" to what's going on in Pal Joey. Mrs Simpson is a rich predatory woman who makes Joey sleep with her before she will fund his night club. Or is it all right if a woman does it? Possibly but I think he was attracted by another feminine conquest as much as her wealth, and the financial deal was her way of keeping him interested. She's quite the sophisticated lady and she's fully aware, where as Joey is just a man thinking with his "little brain". "Lost my heart but what of it? My mistake, I agree He's a laugh, but I love it Because the laugh's on me" A similar case in point was the recent An American in Paris. Several on here said they felt uneasy about the 4 guys chasing the uninterested girl. No one commented on the older lady who was clearly modelled on, but not nearly as deeply drawn, as Mrs. Simpson. I felt she was as predatory as the men.
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227 posts
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Post by paulbrownsey on May 14, 2018 19:09:10 GMT
I think you are blinded by "Me Too" to what's going on in Pal Joey. Mrs Simpson is a rich predatory woman who makes Joey sleep with her before she will fund his night club. Or is it all right if a woman does it? Possibly but I think he was attracted by another feminine conquest as much as her wealth, and the financial deal was her way of keeping him interested. She's quite the sophisticated lady and she's fully aware, where as Joey is just a man thinking with his "little brain". "Lost my heart but what of it? My mistake, I agree He's a laugh, but I love it Because the laugh's on me" A similar case in point was the recent An American in Paris. Several on here said they felt uneasy about the 4 guys chasing the uninterested girl. No one commented on the older lady who was clearly modelled on, but not nearly as deeply drawn, as Mrs. Simpson. I felt she was as predatory as the men. I was being *slightly* mischievous. But as for "the financial deal was her way of keeping him interested". Weinstein might have said the same; and he might have been "aware", too. Read more: theatreboard.co.uk/thread/4807/when-book-work?page=2#ixzz5FVLoMYwM
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 19:27:46 GMT
I wish someone would completely rewrite The Bakers Wife. Cut back on all the villagers and find a way to not have the title character offstage for most of the second act.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 19:31:37 GMT
How have we gotten this far into this thread and no one has mentioned Bat Out of Hell? Is that book beyond help? Lost cause?
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3,317 posts
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Post by david on May 14, 2018 20:16:44 GMT
How have we gotten this far into this thread and no one has mentioned Bat Out of Hell? Is that book beyond help? Lost cause? Definitely a lost cause. Though it probably makes more sense if your watching the show after having a couple of drinks! In a similar vein, the WWRY plot is pretty naff!
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Post by Mr Snow on May 15, 2018 6:08:53 GMT
Possibly but I think he was attracted by another feminine conquest as much as her wealth, and the financial deal was her way of keeping him interested. She's quite the sophisticated lady and she's fully aware, where as Joey is just a man thinking with his "little brain". "Lost my heart but what of it? My mistake, I agree He's a laugh, but I love it Because the laugh's on me" A similar case in point was the recent An American in Paris. Several on here said they felt uneasy about the 4 guys chasing the uninterested girl. No one commented on the older lady who was clearly modelled on, but not nearly as deeply drawn, as Mrs. Simpson. I felt she was as predatory as the men. I was being *slightly* mischievous. But as for "the financial deal was her way of keeping him interested". Weinstein might have said the same; and he might have been "aware", too. Read more: theatreboard.co.uk/thread/4807/when-book-work?page=2#ixzz5FVLoMYwMNow you've lost the plot. To the best of my knowledge Weinstein was sex if you want the contract. Joey and Mrs Simposn were an item i.e. they both enjoyed the situation. The 'contract' was because she was trying to maintain the situation when his head got turned by the new kid in town. Not the same at all. As I said, perhaps the time is not right for this material. We live in a time of headlines and such subtleties would get lost.
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