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Post by max on Mar 30, 2018 9:19:48 GMT
A general place to talk about what Theatre Criticism can be in the digital landscape. To kick off...
Mark Shenton has tweeted:
"My column for The Stage is on how NSD Fest offers a model for how critics are put at the centre of the discussion around theatre -- & how it's a refreshing antidote to the juvenile playground that twitter increasingly resembles"
This from a critic who, only days ago, tweeted hearsay he'd picked up from Facebook about a performance in the first preview of 'Chicago'. Surely, a bit of 'playground' glee there from him.
To be fair, I think Shenton is still feeling his way in this post-print digital age for critics. But how much do we even want critics "centre of the discussion" when careless trigger reactions like that can set the tone of debate - virally?
Follow Critics' tweets for long enough and you soon recognise some who who are susceptible to being 'warmed up' by producers who put out 'eye candy' pics of the cast. Perhaps it doesn't ultimately affect their review, but they'll retweet the pic. New reality in a visual/digital age, or should critics be above that?
There's also a matey/cliquey online alliance growing between some critics/ commentators that threatens to narrow debate by unpicking the internet's best quality: that it's the user who picks and 'friends' people from a multiplicity of distinct voices.
Any thoughts / ideas about where all this is heading?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2018 9:46:54 GMT
Pah. Critics. There's really only one opinion that matters.
Mine.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Mar 30, 2018 9:52:33 GMT
There has always been a cliqueyness in criticism, all the music when we were young and considered ourselves ‘trendsetter’ were influenced by maybe 10 to 15 music journalists who on the whole were influenced by the music business their ultimate paymasters.
The only issue now is that everyone is a critic, on the whole any personal view on Twitter is worthless (including my own) as I do not know their preferences in relation to mine.
A core few critics will continue to dominate, we know their history, can compare their reviews to our own and come to rely on their judgements. The main issue is how these critics will be able to earn a living where the perception is everything on the internet must be free which will ultimately lead to the traditional press disappearing. (I subscribe to The Stage digital output, this should really be the norm, if I am expecting a service in the case Theatre news there is a an expectation to pay)
The only real difference I can see is on Forums like this, here every day we learn a bit about each other and how this relates to our tastes and values.
In jest, almost everything @parsley dislikes I have enjoyed, does not post many positive reviews so unable to confirm the corollary, in time I will, and that is true for most people who post on here.
In summary there has to be a relationship with the critic, which means that we need a core group of critics preferably a large enough pool to provide diverse opinions, the difficulty is to generate a business model for these critics to earn a living when we ALL give our opinions for free.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2018 10:01:01 GMT
What I like is finding a critic whose views closely align with mine. I'm not a dispassionate observer or an academic who may not see the play but can construct a reasonable idea of it from reading a wide variety of sources. If I'm reading a review, it's to find out if a production is worth my money and time (usually over another production rather than a quiet night in or an art gallery opening or whatever), and if I have a critic who consistently likes the same things as me and for the same reasons (and I do), then I can turn to them for useful advice.
The thing is, both the advice-seeking theatre-goer and the source-seeking academic can only benefit from the expansion and proliferation of digital age criticism. I never met a single academic who complained about having too many primary sources, and where I might not find a close-aligning voice among traditional print critics, I've got a wide choice of bloggers to pick from. Not all bloggers are created equal, and of course there's a wiiiiide swathe of those whose idea of a review is to recount the plot, list the actors, then conclude "I really liked this!", but not all traditional print critics are automatically much cop either.
I don't mind saying that a critic who I don't have much time for these days is Mark Shenton. He seems far more interested in what people think of him than in what he thinks of theatre...
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Post by ellie1981 on Mar 30, 2018 11:25:21 GMT
I recommend reading Mark Kermode’s book ‘Hatchet Job: Love Movies, Hate Critics’. Plus the very very entertaining ‘The Good, The Bad and the Multiplex’.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2018 12:22:55 GMT
In summary there has to be a relationship with the critic, which means that we need a core group of critics preferably a large enough pool to provide diverse opinions, the difficulty is to generate a business model for these critics to earn a living when we ALL give our opinions for free. I agree with much of what you say, especially about anyone's view being worthless to anyone else, but I would be more radical in my conclusion. The 'pool of critics' shouldn't be small, it should include everyone. Those writing for a large or small audience, people you know, people you don't, people you agree with, people who are the opposite and so on. It's never a good idea to expect a limited number of people to tell you what you should like, it not only keeps out a range of voices (from various parts of society) but it narrows down what is seen and who by. It's the same with other products, what sells is what people have heard of, not what they would best appreciate. This is why the internet is a great challenge, it has opened up opinion whilst also closing it down; people only communicating with the like minded where the opportunity is there for your experience to be more open and wide ranging than it otherwise would be.
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Post by Phantom of London on Mar 30, 2018 12:31:11 GMT
I agree the critics’ pool should be very very small, I recommend that only one person’s opinion counts when seeing something and that is your very own. What gives professional critics the moral high ground that their opinion is more valid than your own, is it their sense of entitlement that they went to private/public school and onto Oxbridge? I have seen stuff the critics have hated or been dismissive about and really enjoyed.
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Post by andrew on Mar 30, 2018 14:43:11 GMT
I agree the critics’ pool should be very very small, I recommend that only one person’s opinion counts when seeing something and that is your very own. What gives professional critics the moral high ground that their opinion is more valid than your own, is it their sense of entitlement that they went to private/public school and onto Oxbridge? I have seen stuff the critics have hated or been dismissive about and really enjoyed. I don't think they'd argue that their opinion is more valid than yours, but I think they'd argue they contribute to the discussion around the media they review in general. Critics are great promoters of their genre, at their best they are cheerleaders for the best of the thing they love, and perhaps try to warn you against things they did not enjoy whilst earnestly discussing whatever merits it has. In a similar vein, what right do I have to tell you what I think about a play? Why on earth should I care what you have to say about it? It's because there's a discussion, you see others perspectives on something, and if (perish the thought) you're not a person who can just go and see everything they might potentially enjoy, you can try and choose the right thing to spend your time and money on.
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Post by n1david on Mar 30, 2018 16:25:40 GMT
The 'pool of critics' shouldn't be small, it should include everyone. Those writing for a large or small audience, people you know, people you don't, people you agree with, people who are the opposite and so on. It's never a good idea to expect a limited number of people to tell you what you should like, it not only keeps out a range of voices (from various parts of society) but it narrows down what is seen and who by. It's the same with other products, what sells is what people have heard of, not what they would best appreciate. This is why the internet is a great challenge, it has opened up opinion whilst also closing it down; people only communicating with the like minded where the opportunity is there for your experience to be more open and wide ranging than it otherwise would be. I think your point about the Echo Chamber is a great one, it's become far too easy for people to only interact with people who support their worldview, whether that's that Sondheim is a God or Rufus Norris should be strung up. That's one reason I do appreciate the diversity of views on this forum - the one thing that we all seem to have in common is that we think theatre is a "good thing", even if what we regard as "good theatre" - or even the point of theatre - can vary enormously. My only concern about embracing everyone is that on the internet you genuinely have no idea of people's motivation - scanning tweets after early previews or a first night inevitably gives a huge number of positive tweets from people who may have got free tix or have friends in the cast (of course, it could be a great show). Even more so when you take into account social media promotional activity. So while I appreciate your overall view, I still need to filter - @joe5638574 on Twitter doesn't have the same weight as Billington, or some of the posters on here (naming no names) whose opinion I respect.
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Post by joem on Apr 1, 2018 8:35:03 GMT
Many opinions can be interesting but some are not, perhaps most often when born out of ignorance but worst of all when driven by spite, bile or the many other petty motivations which spur trolls on the internet to do their thing. I have plenty of experience of sites such as Trip Advisor - I would never dream of using it for reference other than to find an address or phone number (and even these are often wrong) - where malicious or biased reviews/ratings destroy the hard work of honest people whilst promoting that of their unscrupulous culinary inferiors.
A good critic is someone who has a deep understanding of theatre and hopefully has some cultural hinterland too. It is to be hoped that to get a job in a major outlet as a critic some selection is involved which roots out obviously unsuitable candidates.
We live in the age predicted by Warhol and The Kinks (Everyone's In Showbiz, Everyone's A Star) but when we require surgery most of us opt for a qualified, experienced professional rather than someone who talks knowledgeably about operations and may even have been present at one once. Possibly. Participation is great, and exchange of opinions is great, but this is not always a substitute for expertise.
And the quality of online reviews is, to be polite, very mixed. Only yesterday I read what is, for me, the worst review I have seen in my life on The Londonist's website. A one-liner recommending what you should drink when you go to a particular theatre.
Off to find a review website where I can tear chunks out of The Londonist with a dozen different avatars....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 12:23:11 GMT
It’s true that some people seem unable to differentiate between honestly written reviews and ones that are thinly veiled personal attacks or self promotion (or truth and fake news, or truth and conspiracy theory etc.) but you would hope that anyone who falls for it learns and becomes less credulous next time. Caveat Emptor.
The joy and curse of the internet is other people. Mostly decent but with a vituperative minority who seek to undermine credibility of everyone and everything. Having been gifted this wonderful tool for communication across nation, age, class etc. it would be a tragedy to retreat to cliques of people and the atomisation of society. Look at certain nations and political movements, they want people to say ‘I don’t know what to think’ or ‘they are all the same’. Fight back, don’t let them succeed. Listen, agree, dismiss, get angry, punch the air.
Theatre is about opinions not facts and we need to be careful to separate where expert opinion is crucial and when it is impossible. In the case of theatre it is opinion led, so one person’s theatre expert is another's waste of space. What finding an expert on theatre is, is finding someone with your own taste. It isn’t like human biology, where a wealth of knowledge is required to be capable. I wouldn’t go to a random person to make me a television, but what they tell me about how they feel about it is potentially useful.
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Post by foxa on Jan 28, 2019 8:55:11 GMT
Reviving this topic which I missed the first time around.
Yesterday, I saw that a critic with a large following retweeted something which, with literally two clicks, 10 seconds later, anyone could prove was false. A few people spotted it and posted in the comments section it was fake but well over a hundred people retweeted it and hundreds liked it. The critic eventually said in reply to someone's comment that he wanted it to be true and it was based on fact - and has left it up, where it continues to be circulated. It's nothing nasty or scurrilous, just stupid and fake. And you think, if he can't be bothered to check the simplest and most obvious of things, what else doesn't he get right?
This is one of many ways in which the internet can be vexing - I was annoyed about something false being widely and pointlessly circulated and also cross with myself for wasting time thinking about it. It takes up too much headroom.
On the other hand, my favourite drama criticism these days tends to come from writers at Exeunt - and I only access their stuff online.
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Post by HereForTheatre on Jan 28, 2019 9:37:14 GMT
I think the difference between mainstream critics like Shenton or any of them from the papers is that their review is basically a "this is what the show is like, this is how you should feel, this show is either good or bad because I/we say so". For me i don't like the weight that mainstream critics try to put on their opinion.
The difference is that with blogs or the reviewers you find on YouTube or our very own community here, is that it's usually just someone going to the theatre and then writing about what they thought, it feels less judgemental and and so it feels more real and simple. I almost never read the big reviews and stick to reading the blogs i trust and reading what you guys say on here.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 9:41:59 GMT
I think also some 'mainstream' critics are, as my politician friend calls it 'a fan of their own image more than the work they do' which weirdly applies to MPs and theatre folks equally a lot of the time.
As in certain critics (whose name may or may not rhyme with Shark Menton as a great example) are more interested in how what they say about a show makes them look, rather than offering a real opinion. Equally some of the self proclaimed high-brown critics have a similar problem with 'what opinion will make me seem most clever'
The only 'mainstream' critic (aside from a handful of regional freelancers who work for the Stage, who aren't 'full timers' by any stretch) that I have time for is Lynn, and even she now could be considered an 'indie' or 'blogger' critic I guess.
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Post by HereForTheatre on Jan 28, 2019 9:50:12 GMT
I must say though, it certainly seems an interesting choice to moan and belittle bloggers and such when you are the face of a website specifically pushing and spreading bloggers reviews....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 11:43:48 GMT
I must say though, it certainly seems a interesting choice to moan and belittle bloggers and such when you are the face of a website specifically pushing and spreading bloggers reviews.... As one of said bloggers BELIEVE me it's an issue several of us have raised with his 'other half' for that website many, many times. (his face has at least been removed from the publicity after a particularly targeted bout of blogger degradation he was part of). I have no issue, as a blogger and someone who works for 'mainstream' publications occasionally in acknowledging they are different styles of writing sometimes, and serve different purposes. But it does show a slightly dinosaur like approach to try and claim that bloggers/vloggers etc have no place in criticism, when they've clearly established themselves as part of the 'system'....of course such is the way with dinosaurs, not fond of the meteor coming their way perhaps.
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Post by sparky5000 on Feb 27, 2019 23:12:15 GMT
Posting it here because don’t really want to start a new topic but I have a couple questions I’ve never been sure of ....
1. When theatre critics review shows, do they always sit in the theatre stalls or do they mix it up a bit?!
2. Do theatre critics only get invited to the official opening or designated critic nights, or are they allowed to go to an earlier preview, as long as their review doesn’t come out until after the official opening night?
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Post by Rukaya on Feb 28, 2019 0:27:22 GMT
Posting it here because don’t really want to start a new topic but I have a couple questions I’ve never been sure of .... 1. When theatre critics review shows, do they always sit in the theatre stalls or do they mix it up a bit?! 2. Do theatre critics only get invited to the official opening or designated critic nights, or are they allowed to go to an earlier preview, as long as their review doesn’t come out until after the official opening night? They don't usually pick whereabouts they're sitting, they might be able to influence it (ie, if they need or want an aisle seat) but generally top dog critics will be put in some of the best seats in the theatre. Non-print reviewers (bloggers/influencers etc) will usually be in Band A/B seats at the very least but again, apart from access or aisle preference, they don't usually have a say in where they're sat. It depends but generally critics will be invited to one of the last preview performances and embargoed until press night, hence why you'll sometimes see reviews go live as soon as the curtain is down on press night, but some will be invited to press night with their reviews going out the next morning. Hope that helps!
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Post by sparky5000 on Feb 28, 2019 0:38:05 GMT
Posting it here because don’t really want to start a new topic but I have a couple questions I’ve never been sure of .... 1. When theatre critics review shows, do they always sit in the theatre stalls or do they mix it up a bit?! 2. Do theatre critics only get invited to the official opening or designated critic nights, or are they allowed to go to an earlier preview, as long as their review doesn’t come out until after the official opening night? They don't usually pick whereabouts they're sitting, they might be able to influence it (ie, if they need or want an aisle seat) but generally top dog critics will be put in some of the best seats in the theatre. Non-print reviewers (bloggers/influencers etc) will usually be in Band A/B seats at the very least but again, apart from access or aisle preference, they don't usually have a say in where they're sat. It depends but generally critics will be invited to one of the last preview performances and embargoed until press night, hence why you'll sometimes see reviews go live as soon as the curtain is down on press night, but some will be invited to press night with their reviews going out the next morning. Hope that helps! Thank you, that’s really interesting, and def does help! 😄👍
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Post by sparky5000 on Feb 28, 2019 0:47:25 GMT
Posting it here because don’t really want to start a new topic but I have a couple questions I’ve never been sure of .... 1. When theatre critics review shows, do they always sit in the theatre stalls or do they mix it up a bit?! 2. Do theatre critics only get invited to the official opening or designated critic nights, or are they allowed to go to an earlier preview, as long as their review doesn’t come out until after the official opening night? They don't usually pick whereabouts they're sitting, they might be able to influence it (ie, if they need or want an aisle seat) but generally top dog critics will be put in some of the best seats in the theatre. Non-print reviewers (bloggers/influencers etc) will usually be in Band A/B seats at the very least but again, apart from access or aisle preference, they don't usually have a say in where they're sat. It depends but generally critics will be invited to one of the last preview performances and embargoed until press night, hence why you'll sometimes see reviews go live as soon as the curtain is down on press night, but some will be invited to press night with their reviews going out the next morning. Hope that helps! Also, I assume the cast all know when invited critics are in the house, so that they know to be on it?! Not that they wouldn’t be normally but, you I’m sure knowing they’re there will focus the mind somewhat 😄
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 8:47:48 GMT
Adding to the above preview attendance can depend on the company/theatre. While it's usual in WE/bigger theatres for critics to come in pre-previews, regional and smaller companies tend to very much consider all previews 'previews' and not let critics in (as in officially, obviously one can buy a ticket!) until opening night or after.
In terms of regional productions as well, most companies are more than happy to get reviewers in at any point in the run- especially from the larger publications- as it's often difficult to get them in. Another regional element of this is often there will be several smaller companies, and the small pool of local critics all competing in the same week, so we don't always get a bit 'critics night' more 'one of us is at x another is at y and somehow we all meet in the middle'
As for seating, as above, there'll be a number of house seats held off for Press Night and different theatres do it in different ways- Sherman seems to allocate based on when you respond to the invite, rather than in terms of prestige, WMC tends to re-jig right until the last minute depending on customer demand as well a little bit (which actually I like, if someone wants to pay them ££ for a seat, then 100% they should take the money not give it to a critic's behind).
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Post by sparky5000 on Feb 28, 2019 10:42:23 GMT
Adding to the above preview attendance can depend on the company/theatre. While it's usual in WE/bigger theatres for critics to come in pre-previews, regional and smaller companies tend to very much consider all previews 'previews' and not let critics in (as in officially, obviously one can buy a ticket!) until opening night or after. In terms of regional productions as well, most companies are more than happy to get reviewers in at any point in the run- especially from the larger publications- as it's often difficult to get them in. Another regional element of this is often there will be several smaller companies, and the small pool of local critics all competing in the same week, so we don't always get a bit 'critics night' more 'one of us is at x another is at y and somehow we all meet in the middle' As for seating, as above, there'll be a number of house seats held off for Press Night and different theatres do it in different ways- Sherman seems to allocate based on when you respond to the invite, rather than in terms of prestige, WMC tends to re-jig right until the last minute depending on customer demand as well a little bit (which actually I like, if someone wants to pay them ££ for a seat, then 100% they should take the money not give it to a critic's behind). Thanks, that’s interesting! When you say it’s usual in West End / bigger theatres for critics to come in “pre-previews”, do you mean, in previews pre official opening? I guess it must be only a few days prior given that shows are constantly being tinkered with right up to official opening so you want the show to be in as final form as possible when you invite the critics in?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 10:55:08 GMT
Adding to the above preview attendance can depend on the company/theatre. While it's usual in WE/bigger theatres for critics to come in pre-previews, regional and smaller companies tend to very much consider all previews 'previews' and not let critics in (as in officially, obviously one can buy a ticket!) until opening night or after. In terms of regional productions as well, most companies are more than happy to get reviewers in at any point in the run- especially from the larger publications- as it's often difficult to get them in. Another regional element of this is often there will be several smaller companies, and the small pool of local critics all competing in the same week, so we don't always get a bit 'critics night' more 'one of us is at x another is at y and somehow we all meet in the middle' As for seating, as above, there'll be a number of house seats held off for Press Night and different theatres do it in different ways- Sherman seems to allocate based on when you respond to the invite, rather than in terms of prestige, WMC tends to re-jig right until the last minute depending on customer demand as well a little bit (which actually I like, if someone wants to pay them ££ for a seat, then 100% they should take the money not give it to a critic's behind). Thanks, that’s interesting! When you say it’s usual in West End / bigger theatres for critics to come in “pre-previews”, do you mean, in previews pre official opening? I guess it must be only a few days prior given that shows are constantly being tinkered with right up to official opening so you want the show to be in as final form as possible when you invite the critics in? Sorry no that was a typo/too early trying to write. I meant just that as above in WE generally critics trickle in across previews, whereas in my experience regional theatres don't like critics coming in before opening night (as in the way it used to be!) It's worth noting though that previews are previews for a reason, and Baz recently noted that his thoughts on All About Eve changed drastically between what he saw in an early preview, and the production on opening night.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 11:32:42 GMT
In the West End, many experienced production companies and PRs know where critics prefer to sit, and do their utmost to meet that - many shows remove seats to make a centre aisle for press night. Truthfully, even I've invariably been given seats I like, too, when I'm invited, and I can't tell you how grateful I am to those who do that. Never been given a bad seat on those occasions. So kind of them. Baz recently noted that his thoughts on All About Eve changed drastically between what he saw in an early preview, and the production on opening night. Eve in fact apparently changed between the last preview and press night, so he also said. Yes to the point (and given I trust Baz's opinion) I'm inclined to see the NT live to see if it changes my opinion of it as well. On the subject of seating, of course a few of my locals have unreserved seating so even us critics are battling it out like animals for a seat...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2019 11:59:32 GMT
Yes to the point (and given I trust Baz's opinion) I'm inclined to see the NT live to see if it changes my opinion of it as well. Be VERY interested to hear what you think if you do. I appreciate I'm hijacking this thread a bit here but... I have MANY thoughts on this. Firstly that the layering of film on stage back to film again is an interesting one. BUT that even more so than other NT Lives it's impossible to film this without some kind of 'filter' that isn't recreating the live experience, because it has to be 'directed' in order to capture the film on stage on film. Also while all directors have some say in the NT live camera direction you can bet your ass that Ivo will be VERY involved, and that level of direction also mitigates the replica of live experience (or 'you can bet he'll be a pretentious wanker about it' as I said at the weekend). And that irritates me as well. Honestly I haven't been this retrospectively irritated by a play in a LONG time.
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