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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 19:08:35 GMT
It doesn’t matter if she’s a size 4 or a size 22, a reviewer shouldn’t comment on an actor’s weight What about the character's weight, if it's relevant to the description of said character? I was really uncomfortable with the "fat" jokes in Hangmen by Martin McDonagh. It made me wonder how an actor copes when an audience laughs at their physical appearance.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2018 12:14:30 GMT
Post removed, pending moderator review. This seems like a strange paradox... Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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Post by lynette on Jun 16, 2018 22:22:45 GMT
Meh. Apart from a patch in the middle I thought Lia Williams was fine. In the middle she started a parody of herself. There were two points when she and Mr Lowther actually were laughing not in the play. Methinks. He dropped the ring. Then at some other point. To be honest I was sitting too far away to see, hear or care. I was in Row E the new row which is very uncomfortable because your feet don’t touch the floor. Well mine didn’t and I’m no shorty. So we took the cushions that were for the bums on the school chairs and used them to make footstools as it were. I was at the end of the row and the sight lines were dire. . I couldn’t hear quite a lot because the actor was facing to the back..pretty well all of them. The criticised actor playing Joyce was by far the best, accent, demeanour, clarity, everything so poo to whoever criticised her. Lots of walking in, walking out, moving chairs, singing a bit, catching characters as they were leaving and then they turned round, a bit amateur I thought. For me no sense of a confined classroom. I could not see the layout with chairs for the first rows of the audience so it had no impact at all. Lots of people went for cushions for the second half. The ushers said they had complaints. Excuse me but isn’t the first rule of any place taking your money to make it comfortable?
Now to important matters: The toilets. Yes, here she goes again but I am sick of standing in along line for the loo when the fellas trot in and out, in and out. They should remove the urinals from the men's ( isn’t just saying men's so from a bygone age now most places are embracing all gender toilets) add a couple of toilets and then have all genders use both. Not difficult. Actually I asked the front of house to allow the women to use the men's but he copped out because I was a bit bolshie about it. What, moi? People who design theatres out there- just put in as many toilets as you can and do not have restrictions on who uses them. Simples.
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Post by jadnoop on Jun 16, 2018 22:54:48 GMT
They should remove the urinals from the men's ( isn’t just saying men's so from a bygone age now most places are embracing all gender toilets) add a couple of toilets and then have all genders use both. The idea of removing urinals and making all toilets unisex has been mentioned a few times on this board. While I definitely agree that changes need to be made to deal with the ridiculous imbalance of queueing times, in my opinion removing the urinals isn't the best way forward. I don't say this because of issues of sexual equality, but simply practical factors. While less talked about than emissions, reducing water consumption is an important part of the sustainability agenda. While there are measures to reduce the water demand in toilets (low flush, water recycling, rainwater collection etc. [the latter two apply not just to WCs though]), urinals still generally use less than sit-down toilets. The other thing is time; part of the reason that the gents' moves quickly is that using a urinal is generally faster than a sit down toilet. My feeling is that a better approach would be to change the numbers of male vs female toilets in design standards (or use urinals alongside unisex toilets). According to this (https://www.washroomcubicles.co.uk/how-many-toilets-do-you-need/#sports_entertainment ) it seems that a 1000-seater theatre in the UK expecting 50:50 male:female should have 26 female WCs; 3 male WCs and 11 urinals. I haven't been in a ladies loos but I suspect that these numbers don't match with reality.
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Post by peggs on Jun 16, 2018 23:10:23 GMT
I missed lynette?! That's what comes from slumming it upstairs though if my the sounds of it I had a comfier seat and better view.
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Post by lonlad on Jun 17, 2018 0:19:32 GMT
Are Lia Williams and Angus Wright an item?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2018 0:41:29 GMT
I think in the case where the jokes are scripted and the actor knew what they were taking on before they took the job then it's very different. A play is a fiction in which anything can happen, the story is served by the words the author thinks fit. Reality is a review taking place in real life and we have the duty to moderate our commentary on the story we are being told. One is a creative expression which must be free, the other is a commentary which should take a more balanced and carefully worded approach. Erm, does that make any sense? My brain is now hurting. This doesn't quite resolve the issue for me. I hated the audience laughing at the "publican's fat daughter jokes." I didn't find them funny. I think performers of that size might take those roles because they don't get offered much. This is very much a "looksist" industry.
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Post by andrew on Jun 17, 2018 0:45:01 GMT
Looks like a gang of us were there. I swanned past the downstairs pre-show ladies queue which was quite substantial. Then past the upstairs one at the interval. I didn't want to look like I was enjoying the lack of queue as I walked in and out. I obviously was enjoying it though. It's great being a man, I'd recommend it. I won't wade in to the "scrap the urinals" saga other than to say that it doesn't make sense to get rid of the most efficient form of toileting, what you want is more toilets for ladies (and anyone else etc etc), not fewer toilets for everyone. Men at urinals are faster than men in stalls, and urinals take up a fraction of the space. I don't really understand why you'd want to make it less efficient and force men into bulky cubicles when you could be using the space (as is often done) for more stalls for ladies, although I fully understand why you want to make it more equal.
Mild spoilers generally follow.
I was upstairs in B11 and had a fine view. I could see people struggling though, and a few seats downstairs had issues with a light shining quite brightly at them, a woman popped her sunglasses on at one stage. I didn't like the lighting very much, it was quite fussy, and honestly if you've got patrons that can't see the action because of a light you've hung for significant portions of the show, you have erred. I did like the bells though. They really do 'strike', it's not a speaker inside. That's the sort of theatre gimmick I'm into, more bells please.
I really really liked this, I've never seen or read it which I think always gives one an advantage over wiser and more experienced people of culture. I had a great time, Lia was at times mildly over the top in doing her own-special-thing. She has enormous stage presence and commands the character. I disagree with a lack of development, I really enjoyed piecing together as things went by more and more about Brodie. You start off with a sense of this mildly inspiring renegade teacher and by the end even without the denouement you have a much more complex, sad and disturbing figure to reckon with.
Something about the actors and the way the "book" scene is written was really difficult to watch, I'm not even sure what it was I was just mildly overcome with sadness. Did someone say childhood trauma? Someone definitely said that. No no, I'm fine, it's hayfever. Nicola Coughlan was a real winner, I forgot until midway through the first act the whole thing about the reviewer, and then I couldn't believe that that was what he chose to comment on. She was brilliant. This is possibly the first thing I've seen Angus Wright in, where I don't wonder why he got the role. There's a particular section where he has a moment of affection with Lia which was just beautifully handled. And on that line I thought there was a lot of very well directed pieces throughout the play.
Anyway I had high hopes and they were met. I'd probably give it five stars. For context I think I've given out 5 stars (in the review journal thats in my head) up to twice so far this year. Reading around I'm slightly off kilter with general opinion, and I wonder if it's because I'm new to this material, or possibly because I think Lia Williams is something near a kind of stage goddess and I'd like her to play me in a show about my life. If we get the budget, we'll have her flip a coin at the start with Juliet - oh that's a different show? Never mind.
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Post by peggs on Jun 17, 2018 8:30:58 GMT
I missed andrew too? And I stared at those bells as assumed they were for more than show but couldn't see them ring so thought I must have been wrong, I'm blaming poor eye sight. I was completely new to this too which which think benefited me too.i thought it was one thing and then it turned out to be something rather different. From the side circle didn't see how lighting was done and could block some audience members so perhaps for once upstairs was not so bad. Really enjoyed the cast and thought Lia Williams was excellent. Plus I was on the end of the row so had first run to the toilets and a nice chat with the lady next to me, always a bonus.
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Post by andrew on Jun 17, 2018 11:15:40 GMT
The bells have got a contraption inside that pushes a rod sharply onto the inside of the bell, so they don't need to be 'rung' to be 'struck', if that makes sense. They look like they're doing nothing, but I spent long enough inspecting them to ascertain their dark mysterious truth. Shame to have missed you peggs!
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Post by peggs on Jun 17, 2018 13:38:10 GMT
The bells have got a contraption inside that pushes a rod sharply onto the inside of the bell, so they don't need to be 'rung' to be 'struck', if that makes sense. They look like they're doing nothing, but I spent long enough inspecting them to ascertain their dark mysterious truth. Shame to have missed you peggs! Interesting, I noticed there was a something inside them but you clearly paid much more attention. Failure to examine bells and audience for board members!
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Post by bingomatic on Jun 17, 2018 21:55:02 GMT
Knew a little about the, disappointing, short story but absolutely loved this production. Lia Williams was magnetic and although I'm hopeless at predicting award nominees I'm certain she'll get something at the end of the year.
Thanks for the warning about the two front row seats, I had a spare sweatshirt to ease the buttock burden.
The others were good too, but it was Lia's show.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 8:20:08 GMT
I read this interview recently (and WOW it was surprisingly difficult to find again), Elizabeth Webster's thoughts are particularly relevant to this discussion. She clearly can't speak for all actors, but worth a read: www.shortlist.com/entertainment/how-movies-cast-ugly-unattractive-fat-characters-mean-awkward-long-read-feature/358578 No matter what you look like, you need to be pretty thick-skinned to make it as an actor, so I feel like people who are in it for the long haul are always going to be pragmatic about their appearance and typing. Wishing for more, but nonetheless taking advantage of the fact that they have their casting niche and embracing it. I mean, it would be great if writers could do better, and directors could be a little more visionary, and critics could bear in mind that an actor is either miscast or well cast but either way their physical form is rarely fair game for casual commentary. (I feel the likes of us get a little more leeway to discuss physical appearance, because firstly we're not critics so no one should be taking us seriously, and secondly we really do mostly do it in a complimentary way; members have before and doubtless will again come down hard on another member who is just plain mean about an actor's physical appearance. So, restraining orders aside, the likes of Ryan are on reasonably safe ground here!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 8:50:29 GMT
So, restraining orders aside, the likes of Ryan are on reasonably safe ground here!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 22:02:56 GMT
They should remove the urinals from the men's It wouldn't be possible at the Donmar, as you could not possibly fit even a single cubicle into the space for the urinals in the upstairs men's, and you would JUST perhaps get one in the downstairs ones. That in fact goes for practically every "gents" in the entire West End. Most of the time they are narrow corridors with a single stall at one end, and just inches between urinals on one side and basins on the other. I hated the audience laughing at the "publican's fat daughter jokes." I didn't find them funny. I think performers of that size might take those roles because they don't get offered much. Those lines were there to enhance dramatic truth, a valid artistic judgement, I'd have said (not seen this version yet, but have seen others). Audience reaction says more about the audience than the writer, I think. Really interesting point about performers taking that kind of work just because they need it. Does that mean theatre is no more than a freak show? A serious question, not in any way trying to be offensive to @cleoskryker, I really want to know and build on the question raised here. I don’t think Theatre is a freak show but it is short sighted. There must be “big boned” or conventionally less attractive actors out there who are very talented. It is women who suffer most from looksism. Can anyone think of a female equivalent of Simon Russell Beale? I guess they are weeded out at drama school auditions.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 8:18:32 GMT
This is the problem with writing female characters as wives and girlfriends and mothers for all these years. We end up with an industry where the overweight woman gets sidelined as the funny best friend and never cast as Juliet, even though fat women fall in love - and have people fall in love with them - all the goddamned time in real life. Building a great acting career is a challenge for everyone, but directors who think "sure, Hamlet can be chubby, why not?" never seem to extend the same courtesy to Rosalind. We end up with a pervasive, insidious, toxic message that only thin women can be desirable, and that only thin women deserve a great career. And feel free to pop up with a fat woman who has a brilliant career in an attempt to prove me wrong, I'll show you hundreds of thin women that prove the imbalance is very real.
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Post by mallardo on Jun 19, 2018 8:50:35 GMT
Melissa McCarthy springs to mind as a large woman who's a movie star but, again, she's a comic actor - which holds true for male actors as well. For some reason fat = funny. Even Shakespeare played by that rule.
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Post by cropley on Jun 19, 2018 17:40:32 GMT
Kathy Bates?
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Post by lynette on Jun 19, 2018 18:24:37 GMT
This is a very interesting thread. If you were going to cast a chubby ( ler's not be too coy) actress to play Juliet who is aged 14 in the text and usually played by an actress who can pass for young teen, then you would be doing it either because you wanted to make a point about the character or because the actress was bloody brilliant. Similarly most of the other young girls in Shakespeare and yes he did play the fat funny thing to the extreme - Comedy of Errors description of the cook.. But if we are saying that a woman has to starve herself to get a part then that is not right and what the modelling girls have been battling for years. They have to be stick then to wear the clothes designed for stick thin women. I went to a fashion show at one of the big schools of fashion recently and honestly a women's body wasn’t necessary for any of the clothes on the catwalk. An ironing board or a young man would have been fine.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 23:27:56 GMT
Pauline Quirke's size was often made fun of in Bird's of A Feather by Dorian in retaliation for her comments about Dorian being a slapper.
But as Pauline and now Linda have lost a lot of weight this can no longer apply.
There are certainly less larger female actresses than male ones when you think about top careers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 7:48:01 GMT
And none of them are really known for their theatre work, which is interesting, 'cos I would've thought the world of theatre would be more flexible on body shapes than the world of film and/or TV. The search for a female Simon Russell Beale equivalent continues...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 8:40:47 GMT
The search for a female Simon Russell Beale equivalent continues...
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Post by Snciole on Jun 21, 2018 8:52:23 GMT
What smashing gams SRB has!
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Post by jaqs on Jun 21, 2018 16:24:19 GMT
Sharon D Clarke isn't small, has done plenty of TV and theatre, though musicals rather than plays. I'd hope that Sharon Rooney becomes the SRB equivalent in a few years time.
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Post by vegas on Jun 21, 2018 19:42:44 GMT
In the US: Jayne Houdyshell, Lois Smith, and Kathleen Turner.
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