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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2018 10:49:31 GMT
I'm not sure I agree that Nessie R's delightful character was "shoehorned" into the piece. I could launch into an eloquent argument as to why I don't think so and why it didn't jar with me at all but it's sunny, I normally find myself utterly incapable of veering away from a load of camp old nonsense and I'm sure that it's cocktail hour somewhere in the world so I'll give you the greatest hits.
I thought it fitted beautifully with a theme of acceptance, family, mothers, moving on, the continuation of Walter's inheritance and a sense of 'home', many things that seemed completely unattainable to many gay men at the time (and still is in a lot of ways). Ultimately I thought it was hopeful, and heaven knows we need more of that nowadays. Now, I'm sure there's more but a cosmopolitan doesn't shake itself.
I think I'm right here. I often am so why would today be any different?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2018 11:25:32 GMT
I'm not sure I agree that Nessie R's delightful character was "shoehorned" into the piece. I could launch into an eloquent argument as to why I don't think so and why it didn't jar with me at all but it's sunny, I normally find myself utterly incapable of veering away from a load of camp old nonsense and I'm sure that it's cocktail hour somewhere in the world so I'll give you the greatest hits. I thought it fitted beautifully with a theme of acceptance, family, mothers, moving on, the continuation of Walter's inheritance and a sense of 'home', many things that seemed completely unattainable to many gay men at the time (and still is in a lot of ways). Ultimately I thought it was hopeful, and heaven knows we need more of that nowadays. Now, I'm sure there's more but a cosmopolitan doesn't shake itself. I think I'm right here. I often am so why would today be any different? I think shoehorned was maybe the wrong word- the real issue was I loved all of that about the character, and I was frustrated/disappointed that she only gets one scene at the end. I adored what she stood for in the then/now and found her scene incredibly moving....I just didn't like the way it was an 'oh and also' moment. And like i say, for me as she's based on (either literally or in the loosest sense) the women who were part of the epidemic too, I do think that 'inheritance' is given not nearly enough air time. I do stand by my comment on a woman being jarring in the way she's presented. I don't support the criticisms that the play is 'wrong' or 'bad' to be 'all male' it's a play about gay men, I'm happy enough for it to be all gay men. But for that to work, I do feel like it's a motif that needs sticking to. But let's all go and have a gin with old Nessa and see what she thinks?
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Post by crowblack on Apr 22, 2018 12:54:22 GMT
for that to work, I do feel like it's a motif that needs sticking to. My issue is that it wasn't - in the novel, the Wilcoxes have three adult children, two sons and a daughter. The play includes Henry Wilcox's two (apparently) heterosexual sons but erases the daughter. That felt misogynistic / Saudi Arabian Ikea Catalogue to me. I thought maybe Lopez was going to use one of the sons, as in the novel, to kill Leo, and be in there as a heterosexual male figure of violence, but that didn't happen.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2018 14:29:07 GMT
for that to work, I do feel like it's a motif that needs sticking to. My issue is that it wasn't - in the novel, the Wilcoxes have three adult children, two sons and a daughter. The play includes Henry Wilcox's two (apparently) heterosexual sons but erases the daughter. That felt misogynistic / Saudi Arabian Ikea Catalogue to me. I thought maybe Lopez was going to use one of the sons, as in the novel, to kill Leo, and be in there as a heterosexual male figure of violence, but that didn't happen. Ah here’s where my lack of knowledge of the book is an issue- I didn’t know that but on hearing that I share your issue with it.
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Post by sf on Apr 22, 2018 14:59:40 GMT
Seeing this in May, a Wednesday all dayer on the 16th, all the positive feedback has made me wish I'd booked earlier in the run as will be very late to the party. Have bought a copy of Howard’s End, unsure of the value of reading it prior to seeing the play, will it spoil the arc or add to the experience?, reading the post it does not appear to make a difference so will likely read it afterwards and transpose the play to the book. I reread the book before I saw the play, and I was glad I did. There are certainly things that will resonate differently if you're familiar with the novel - but it isn't precisely a straightforward adaptation, there are places where Lopez diverges quite significantly from his source material, and it will work if you don't read the book first. The Merchant Ivory film is on Netflix, if you want a quicker "study guide".
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Post by stevemar on Apr 22, 2018 15:11:24 GMT
for that to work, I do feel like it's a motif that needs sticking to. My issue is that it wasn't - in the novel, the Wilcoxes have three adult children, two sons and a daughter. The play includes Henry Wilcox's two (apparently) heterosexual sons but erases the daughter. That felt misogynistic / Saudi Arabian Ikea Catalogue to me. I thought maybe Lopez was going to use one of the sons, as in the novel, to kill Leo, and be in there as a heterosexual male figure of violence, but that didn't happen. I am not sure I would agree it was misogynistic, as all the female characters from the book who were depicted became men. Yes, they could have had the daughter also in the interests of equality, but since the sons had little to do, I don’t think having her would have added much. I suspect we’d be debating why they had another “token” woman if they’d kept her in?
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Post by ls86 on Apr 22, 2018 15:25:22 GMT
I interviewed two of the actors in this in the last few days for a website I write for, one is gay and one is straight. As a woman I can appreciate the fact there are no women in it because they aren't really needed for the story. The gay men in this story represent something on a much much larger, global scale than just their own characters or "Forster's pupils". I can also understand the decision to not include the daughter because Henry's heterosexual sons weren't "very nice" to say the least and if he put in one woman and makes her like that ...... Well, I can imagine that would make things worse wouldn't it? I do like that Redgrave sort of embodies the character of a mother of all of them really. But at the end of the day, this is a story about the gay community. Both actors, both different ages and sexuality have noted how much it's changed them too. I think it's a truly prominent, excellent piece of work.
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Post by crowblack on Apr 22, 2018 16:04:27 GMT
Henry's heterosexual sons weren't "very nice" to say the least and if he put in one woman and makes her like that Well, Redgrave's character is there performing a sort of penance to atone for her bad treatment of her son. I am not sure I would agree it was misogynistic, as all the female characters from the book who were depicted became men. That's precisely why I thought it was misogynistic! Incidentally, Forster himself became misogynistic in later life, disliking the characters in Howards End and what he called the novel's "swish of skirts" - that line did come to mind when thinking about this play, which can come across as a sort of modern AU Howards End fanfic: "I really like that 90s movie but it would be even better if everyone in it was a guy. And gorgeous." The Merchant Ivory film is on Netflix, if you want a quicker "study guide". The BBC adaptation was much better (though far too soft on the vile Henry), but it's the Merchant Ivory version that Lopez references.
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Post by sf on Apr 22, 2018 16:31:49 GMT
The Merchant Ivory film is on Netflix, if you want a quicker "study guide". The BBC adaptation was much better (though far too soft on the vile Henry), but it's the Merchant Ivory version that Lopez references. I thought Lopez's Henry was a rather more rounded character than Forster's, actually. We are shown - or rather told, because this play tells far more than it shows (and whether that is a problem is another discussion) - a very convincing reason why Lopez's Henry is so emotionally guarded, and Lopez's Henry makes more of an effort to meet Eric halfway, in terms of things like cultural activities, than Forster's Henry does with Margaret. Lopez's Henry does a couple of awful things, but I wouldn't characterise him as 'vile', and I appreciated that Lopez put a Republican billionaire at the centre of his (very, very, very long) play and didn't make him into either a stereotypical Log Cabin Republican or a gay Mitt Romney clone. In the big political blow-up with Eric's friends when it's revealed that Henry is a Republican, I found it a fascinating - and actually laudable - choice that Lopez makes the most ardent, committed Clinton supporter in the room the rudest, most boorish, most dismissive participant in the debate. When Henry talks about AIDS funding and research advancing further under individual enterprise than they would under direct government funding, he builds a convincing case. I don't agree with it, but Lopez allows him to make his argument, and make it well. Opposite him, Justin #1 dismisses Henry's argument rather than attempting to rebut it, and doesn't do so politely even though he's a guest in Henry's house. The play's overall political point of view is certainly liberal-progressive, but there's more nuance there than there could have been.
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Post by crowblack on Apr 22, 2018 17:43:28 GMT
I wouldn't characterise him as 'vile' I was referring to the Wilcox in Forster's novel, not the play. The BBC/Kenneth Lonergan adaptation tries to make Henry a more sympathetic character - younger, better looking, sad eyed - a sort of David Cameron type, someone a Guardian journo might have round to dinner, rather than the callous, ruthless colonial businessman of the novel, to make the relationship more plausible and palatable for a contemporary audience. But he and the Schlegels still leave a tail of destroyed lives! I think Lopez' Henry Wilcox is a far more attractive character than in all the previous versions and made Eric's relationship more plausible - though his actions towards Leo are, in a modern context, less appalling than what Forster's characters do to the teenaged Jacky and later to Leonard. And, of course, in Lopez' version the Len/Jacky character is rescued and saved.
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Post by crowblack on Apr 22, 2018 19:02:43 GMT
(I enjoyed the production btw, and would happily see it again if I lived in London!)
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Post by stevemar on Apr 22, 2018 19:42:07 GMT
Could someone explain which character is which from Howard’s End to The Inheritance.
Yes, Margaret Schlengel is Eric, Henry the same, Ruth is Walter. I guess Leonard Bast is Leo/Adam - I kept on expecting him to have an encounter with a book case... Who represents Tibby and Helen, and how does Toby fit in as a Howard’s End character? I am guessing not all of the them appear, and some are amalgamated.
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Post by sf on Apr 22, 2018 19:52:55 GMT
I was referring to the Wilcox in Forster's novel, not the play. I know you were! The point I was trying to make, obviously not very well, is that I think in this particular case Lopez's version of the character is far less one-dimensionally 'bad'. And, of course, in Lopez' version the Len/Jacky character is rescued and saved. One of the things I find interesting is that Lopez {Spoiler - click to view} combines Leonard and Jacky Bast into a single role, although not a single character - and gives them a reasonably redemptive ending and kills off "Helen Schlegel" instead. That's a definite choice, as is the fact that Toby, overall, is a far less sympathetic character than Helen. I do think the play as a whole works better when Lopez plays around with the source material than in the (few) scenes where he sticks to it rigidly. Like you, as I think I said somewhere else here, I liked it, overall, very much indeed - I thought it was a genuinely magnificent piece of writing, albeit one where there are some legitimate holes to pick, elevated by an absolutely flawless production and superb performances. But, as I said, there are a few holes to pick, and a few places where it's worth looking at how he's chosen to diverge from his source material.
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Post by sf on Apr 22, 2018 19:56:16 GMT
Could someone explain which character is which from Howard’s End to The Inheritance. Yes, Margaret Schlengel is Eric, Henry the same, Ruth is Walter. I guess Leonard Bast is Leo/Adam - I kept on expecting him to have an encounter with a book case... Who represents Tibby and Helen, and how does Toby fit in as a Howard’s End character? I am guessing not all of the them appear, and some are amalgamated. Toby is Helen Schlegel. Tibby - there isn't really a Tibby in the play. I suppose if you held a gun to my head (please don't) I could make a case that Jason #1 is Tibby; I'd find it easier with the play's text in front of me, and it isn't published until next week. And even then it's a leap... unless of course there's an author's note in the published script that informs us Jason #1 is Tibby, in which case it's obvious all the way through and I'm a genius for picking up on it. Adam is Leonard Bast. Leo is Jacky Bast. Yes, Ruth is Walter. Does that make sense?
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Post by stevemar on Apr 22, 2018 20:03:15 GMT
Thanks SF. I am guessing that I didn’t really pay enough attention to Howard’s End to link Helen with Toby, and the fact they were in a relationship rather than siblings put me off the trail! Of course, you are a genius! Tibby was the best thing about the recent BBC series. I wouldn’t have spotted anyone as Jacky Bast, but of course, you have now reminded me of her connection with Henry, which I completely forgot about!
Oh, and who is Aunt Juley? Is that an amalgam of EM Forster and Vanessa Redgrave’s character?
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Post by sf on Apr 22, 2018 23:01:10 GMT
Thanks SF. I am guessing that I didn’t really pay enough attention to Howard’s End to link Helen with Toby, and the fact they were in a relationship rather than siblings put me off the trail! Of course, you are a genius! Tibby was the best thing about the recent BBC series. I wouldn’t have spotted anyone as Jacky Bast, but of course, you have now reminded me of her connection with Henry, which I completely forgot about! Oh, and who is Aunt Juley? Is that an amalgam of EM Forster and Vanessa Redgrave’s character? There's no Aunt Juley - understandably enough, because even in the novel she exists only on the periphery of the plot, and her most significant episode in the story - her journey to Howards End following Helen's engagement to Paul, the ripples from which set off the chain of events that leads Margaret to befriend Ruth Wilcox - is not included in the play. Lopez simply makes it clear that Eric (and therefore also Toby) is already a friend of Walter and Henry. Vanessa Redgrave's character - Margaret - corresponds to Miss Avery in the novel (Miss Avery is the caretaker at Howards End).
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Post by stevemar on Apr 23, 2018 8:25:39 GMT
Thanks SF. Again, not quite familiar enough with the novel, but the Miss Avery character and certain scenes (without giving anything away so I don't think it needs to be spoilered) were similar to those which you have reminded me of.
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Post by kathryn on Apr 23, 2018 8:33:09 GMT
To take this discussion away from Howard's End for a moment, there's also some dramatic 'Inheritances' from iconic plays - I thought there was a clear 'Bent' reference in the verbalised sex scene, an almost-direct History Boys quotation, and the obvious Angels influences.
Did anyone notice anything else that might have been a reference/influence?
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Post by Steve on Apr 23, 2018 8:47:52 GMT
The Angels influences are arguably the ones that help the play the most, because everyone wants to see something like Angels, but also hurt the play the most, because nothing can match up to Angels.
Angels is far more emotional and memorable, because it's the perfectly structured life-adventure of four beautiful characters. By contrast, this show alienates us immediately from the life-adventure of the characters, by presenting us with a reality at the beginning that removes us from the immediacy of the story they will be telling, and forcing us to be cerebral rather than emotional about the whole thing.
I think it succeeds immensely in getting us to talk about it, I think it reaches emotional heights despite it's format rather than because of them, I think that while the performances are astonishingly memorable, nothing can compare to Angels in terms of emotions. A play, where likeable people are actually dying, is always going to emotionally trump a play where unlikeable people talk about dying.
And that's why the relation of the play to Angels is always going to initially help, then severely hurt, this play. Because there are almost no plays as insightful and as moving as Angels.
This play is better than most plays, but it's no Angels.
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Post by MrBunbury on Apr 23, 2018 8:54:42 GMT
Could someone explain which character is which from Howard’s End to The Inheritance. Yes, Margaret Schlengel is Eric, Henry the same, Ruth is Walter. I guess Leonard Bast is Leo/Adam - I kept on expecting him to have an encounter with a book case... Who represents Tibby and Helen, and how does Toby fit in as a Howard’s End character? I am guessing not all of the them appear, and some are amalgamated. Toby is Helen Schlegel. Tibby - there isn't really a Tibby in the play. I suppose if you held a gun to my head (please don't) I could make a case that Jason #1 is Tibby; I'd find it easier with the play's text in front of me, and it isn't published until next week. And even then it's a leap... unless of course there's an author's note in the published script that informs us Jason #1 is Tibby, in which case it's obvious all the way through and I'm a genius for picking up on it. Adam is Leonard Bast. Leo is Jacky Bast. Yes, Ruth is Walter. Does that make sense? The script is actually available now. I bought it at the Young Vic on Saturday afternoon.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 8:55:29 GMT
I'd find it easier with the play's text in front of me, and it isn't published until next week. And even then it's a leap... unless of course there's an author's note in the published script that informs us Jason #1 is Tibby, in which case it's obvious all the way through and I'm a genius for picking up on it. The text is available at the Young Vic now, if you're near enough to swing by (or if anyone wants to know if they should take cash along to future trips in which case you'll need £8). I wouldn't hold out for author's notes though; I've only flicked through it so far, but it appears to plunge straight in and I don't think there's anything at the end either. (I believe the printed cast list in the book has confused Michaels Marcus and Walters, by the way, as there's a bit of paper in the front of mine with a corrected cast list. Anyone who buys the book from another source and cares about cast lists might want to be aware of that.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 9:24:09 GMT
The Angels influences are arguably the ones that help the play the most, because everyone wants to see something like Angels, but also hurt the play the most, because nothing can match up to Angels. Angels is far more emotional and memorable, because it's the perfectly structured life-adventure of four beautiful characters. By contrast, this show alienates us immediately from the life-adventure of the characters, by presenting us with a reality at the beginning that removes us from the immediacy of the story they will be telling, and forcing us to be cerebral rather than emotional about the whole thing. I think it succeeds immensely in getting us to talk about it, I think it reaches emotional heights despite it's format rather than because of them, I think that while the performances are astonishingly memorable, nothing can compare to Angels in terms of emotions. A play, where likeable people are actually dying, is always going to emotionally trump a play where unlikeable people talk about dying. And that's why the relation of the play to Angels is always going to initially help, then severely hurt, this play. Because there are almost no plays as insightful and as moving as Angels. This play is better than most plays, but it's no Angels. A really interesting view Steve (as always). Interesting in that I think I feel the opposite and much preferred 'The Inheritance' to 'Angels in America'. That's not to say that there isn't a place for both (there absolutely is) but if push came to shove and I was Meryl Streep in 'Sophie's Choice', I'd be keeping a tight hold of 'The Inheritance'.
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Post by stevemar on Apr 23, 2018 10:41:45 GMT
The Angels influences are arguably the ones that help the play the most, because everyone wants to see something like Angels, but also hurt the play the most, because nothing can match up to Angels. Angels is far more emotional and memorable, because it's the perfectly structured life-adventure of four beautiful characters. By contrast, this show alienates us immediately from the life-adventure of the characters, by presenting us with a reality at the beginning that removes us from the immediacy of the story they will be telling, and forcing us to be cerebral rather than emotional about the whole thing. I think it succeeds immensely in getting us to talk about it, I think it reaches emotional heights despite it's format rather than because of them, I think that while the performances are astonishingly memorable, nothing can compare to Angels in terms of emotions. A play, where likeable people are actually dying, is always going to emotionally trump a play where unlikeable people talk about dying. And that's why the relation of the play to Angels is always going to initially help, then severely hurt, this play. Because there are almost no plays as insightful and as moving as Angels. This play is better than most plays, but it's no Angels. Kathryn - indeed, the verbal sex scene from Bent was perhaps an inspiration for a scene in Part One. That was more moving and poignant, whereas here, it was more comic. Steve - I have to say I am mostly with you on this. I preferred Angels (Part One, as Part Two was too fantastical for my personal liking) to the Inheritance as it showed much more emotion, and the effects on other characters (and strong women) - such as Joe's wife Harper and his mother. As noted in my original email, the context of families was much more pronounced there and missing here. And, I agree, a play about dying rather than talking about dying (even though it was the past generation) was more moving for me. The world which the Inheritance inhabits seems an entirely gay world (hence hardly anyone outside their own gay sphere of friends and relationships), where the coming out and acceptance issues in other works have moved on to the issues of today (as illustrated by the debate in the play). I am sure this was the writer's intention, but it made it less easy to relate for me. I also think this will make it a harder sale to the mainstream audiences on any possible transfer, and the advertising may well try to make it more universal in its themes? The positive effect of Angels is that last year's huge success at the National must have helped pave the way for the Inheritance. When I first booked the Inheritance last year, it was on the basis I had seen Angels, and I would not have been so eager to book a new two part play by (for me) an unknown playwright without the "inheritance" of Angels.
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Post by sf on Apr 23, 2018 11:47:40 GMT
I'd find it easier with the play's text in front of me, and it isn't published until next week. And even then it's a leap... unless of course there's an author's note in the published script that informs us Jason #1 is Tibby, in which case it's obvious all the way through and I'm a genius for picking up on it. The text is available at the Young Vic now, if you're near enough to swing by (or if anyone wants to know if they should take cash along to future trips in which case you'll need £8). I wouldn't hold out for author's notes though; I've only flicked through it so far, but it appears to plunge straight in and I don't think there's anything at the end either. (I believe the printed cast list in the book has confused Michaels Marcus and Walters, by the way, as there's a bit of paper in the front of mine with a corrected cast list. Anyone who buys the book from another source and cares about cast lists might want to be aware of that.) I'm not near enough to swing by, but I'll be in London again before it closes and that's significantly cheaper than the RRP for the print edition. Thanks.
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Post by sf on Apr 23, 2018 12:00:47 GMT
To take this discussion away from Howard's End for a moment, there's also some dramatic 'Inheritances' from iconic plays - I thought there was a clear 'Bent' reference in the verbalised sex scene, an almost-direct History Boys quotation, and the obvious Angels influences. Did anyone notice anything else that might have been a reference/influence? The passage in the final scene {Spoiler - click to view} where the narration spins off into the future to tell us, among other things, how Eric passes the rest of his life and when and how he dies is rather strongly reminiscent of the final scene of Terrence McNally's Love! Valour! Compassion! - another play about a group of gay men and a house in upstate New York. (It's also rather strongly reminiscent of the final moments of the final episode of Six Feet Under, but never mind. I assume that if a reference is intended, it's to the McNally play.)
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