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Post by oxfordsimon on Jan 3, 2018 21:54:28 GMT
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jan 3, 2018 22:20:44 GMT
I really like the idea, it feels very within Carmen’s abilities. Go for it!
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Post by paulbrownsey on Jan 4, 2018 13:35:43 GMT
Scottish Opera once changed the ending of Turandot. When the ice princess finally melted, Calaf spurned her and the curtain came down on his cradling the body of the dead Liu.
This farrago (in 1984) was exacerbated by the fact that the opera was staged as an episode in the life of Puccini: his formidable wife was Turandot, Puccini was Calaf, and Liu the servant girl his wife (falsely) accused of him having an affaire with.
Oh dear.
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Post by paulbrownsey on Jan 4, 2018 13:37:36 GMT
Oh, and I look forward to a new ending of the Ring in which Brunnhilde contemplates the funeral pyre and says, "Kill myself for a man? Bu**er that", and walks off hand in hand with Waltraute.
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Post by Dawnstar on Jan 4, 2018 15:48:12 GMT
Given the number of productions nowadays where what happens onstage in no way reflects what should be happening according to the libretto, I'm amazed that this particular production has made the news. Last year a soprano I'm acquainted with was telling me about a production of Tosca she'd recently been in where the Marchesa Attavanti led a band of freedom fighters who burst in & killed Scarpia at the end of Act 2 and then at the end of Act 3 rather than jumping off the battlements Tosca remained onstage, alive but gone mad.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 16:12:44 GMT
I'm unable to read the article as my work internet has flagged it as Hate Speech, which you can take however you like. I don't see the harm in it though; it's like Shakespeare, it's been around for donkey's years, there'll be another production along in a couple of months, so why not feel free to make a few changes here and there? It'll either work or it won't.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 16:26:14 GMT
I'm unable to read the article as my work internet has flagged it as Hate Speech It mentions Donald Trump, so...
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Post by lynette on Jan 4, 2018 16:57:00 GMT
Hamlet springs up again and marries Ophelia who was only joking.. They tried this in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries didn’t they? The script or libretto was there to be mucked about with. We have gone the other way. Text is triumphant. But in Opera the music 'speaks' too. So what does it say in Carmen?
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jan 4, 2018 17:06:07 GMT
The final lines are sung by Don Jose as he calls on the guards to arrest him because he has killed her. You then get the music swelling as the curtain falls.
So the proposed change has to rewrite that or reallocate the line to Carmen or come up with something else.
However, the issue, for me, is how far you should change the core narrative of a piece.
Just because Carmen features violence towards women does not mean that it is encourages or glorifies it.
Changing Carmen into a killer might actually work against the agenda they are trying to promote
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Post by tonyloco on Jan 5, 2018 12:35:07 GMT
My view on this is that in general opera houses should respect what the composer and librettist have written and mount operas according to what is specified in the score and in the libretto. I realise this is not always practical with some of Wagner's stage directions but with Bellini, Donizetti, Verdi, Puccini, Bizet and the rest of the traditional operatic canon, I want to see on stage what the composer and librettist intended. If a director wants to change both the setting and the ending of 'Carmen' then he should find a composer and librettist to go back to Mérimée's novel and compose a new opera that covers the changes the director wants. And the same for all other cases where productions have made significant changes to the original operas – the source material is all readily available, so write a new opera with new music and new text to incorporate the changes. If they want to mount 'Carmen' as written by Meilhac, Halévy and Bizet then do so as it stands! Yes, I know that opera is apparently likely to wither and die if it becomes a series of museum pieces, but if that is to be its destiny then so be it and let Verdi, Puccini, Bizet and co have a dignified end and not be degraded and ridiculed by inappropriate 'modern' stagings of their masterpieces.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 16:42:42 GMT
Carpeople
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Post by joem on Jan 6, 2018 0:38:28 GMT
If you substantially change a work you should not be allowed to advertise it as the original work. I object to the Enid Blyton novels being changed, let alone this.
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Post by mallardo on Jan 6, 2018 10:15:55 GMT
Carmen's death is foreshadowed throughout the opera, most specifically in the cards scene in the 3rd Act where she keeps drawing the death card. To change the ending is to betray everything which has gone before.
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Post by tonyloco on Jan 6, 2018 13:54:15 GMT
Carmen's death is foreshadowed throughout the opera, most specifically in the cards scene in the 3rd Act where she keeps drawing the death card. To change the ending is to betray everything which has gone before. Brilliant observation, mallardo – you have hit the nail on the head!
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Post by profquatermass on Jan 6, 2018 19:26:24 GMT
Hamlet springs up again and marries Ophelia who was only joking.. They tried this in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries didn’t they? The script or libretto was there to be mucked about with. We have gone the other way. Text is triumphant. But in Opera the music 'speaks' too. So what does it say in Carmen? There was a documentary a few years ago about changed Shakespeares (Lear with a happy ending, Beatrice and Benedick cheering up Measure for Measure etc) which said that the altered versions were the standard ones for at least a century. I don't really see a problem - after all, any translation is an adaptation (think how G and S often get updated lyrics or Aristophanes is edited with modern references). As Baemax says, it's not like Carmen is difficult to see. I heard an interview with Margaret Drabble recently where she said that, years after the event, she discovered that a translator (Japanese possibly?) changed the ending to her novel The Millstone which had actually been rather a success in that country. She sounded quite amused about it
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jan 6, 2018 23:32:45 GMT
The issue for me is whether, by changing the narrative of a piece for a given production, you are actually performing what the creator(s) intended.
Just because there were substantially altered versions of Shakespeare that persisted for years doesn't mean that Shakespeare would have approved of such changes or that audiences were being short-changed by not seeing what was actually written.
I have no issue with people writing response pieces to existing texts or doing a radical adaptation - as long as they are absolutely transparent about it. Audiences have a right to know what they are signing up for - is it the original or a version that may (or may not) be particularly closely aligned with what was originally on the page?
Radical resettings of operas can also fall into this category - such as the recent version of La Boheme set in space. This has nothing to do with what Puccini and his librettist intended or what was in the source material. It was - according to most reviews - very well sung - even if the production itself was a complete incomprehensible mess.
The fact that this production of Carmen has been upfront about the change to the ending is a positive. They are giving audiences that knowledge upfront so they can make an informed choice as to whether they want to attend.
But turning Carmen into a killer at the end still doesn't fit with the narrative drive of the piece or the source material - or, indeed, the use of various motifs through the score.
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Post by tonyloco on Jan 7, 2018 0:12:34 GMT
One thing that bothers me about productions of operas that alter the setting, and I mean really significantly as regards both place and time, or introduce major changes to the story as with the recent 'Lucia di Lammermoor' at Covent Garden, is how does this read with people seeing that particular opera for the first time? Yes, they might hear some outstandingly good singing but do they go away thinking that is actually what 'Lucia di Lammermoor' is about?
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jan 7, 2018 0:15:06 GMT
The same can be said for straightforward productions of certain pieces. I am still none the wiser about The Excursions of Mr Broucek!
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Post by Mr Snow on Jan 7, 2018 10:32:35 GMT
One could argue Carmen dying at the hands of a man is the more 'modern' and relevant version of 'the story'.
In Peter Brooks Carmen he gives her a husband, also killed by Don Jose, but at least the title is different.
Ho, hum was my initial reAction there's just a chance that this director will use this to galvanize the cast and produce a special and dramatic production . But more than equally there's a good chance we never hear of it again. I will wait for the reviews before I make my mind up.
If it's just designed to shock me, I'm past that. But crocodiles in Wagner can not be justified. There are too many trashy productions in Europe and it would be theatrically wrong if we create a climate that prevents any experimentation - although the pendulum has a long way to swing before that happens.
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Post by harrietcraig on Jan 11, 2018 22:33:06 GMT
I'm currently reading Tim Pigott-Smith's memoir, Do You Know Who I Am?, and I just came across a passage that struck me as relevant to this thread. He talks about having seen a production of The Taming of the Shrew, with Peggy Ashcroft and Peter O'Toole, in Stratford in 1959. [Pause for a moment of silent awe at the thought of what that production must have been like.] Then he says this:
"The Shrew has recently been bogged down in deadening sexual politics which kill the central motor of the play. You cannot allow modern moral judgements to subvert the ethics of a play. The racism of The Merchant of Venice might not be to our liking, but it is the play, and if you don't engage with it the play does not happen. Inevitably, you filter things through your own contemporary mindset, but you change the ethical motors within a play at your peril."
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Post by tonyloco on Jan 12, 2018 1:15:32 GMT
I'm currently reading Tim Pigott-Smith's memoir, Do You Know Who I Am?, and I just came across a passage that struck me as relevant to this thread. He talks about having seen a production of The Taming of the Shrew, with Peggy Ashcroft and Peter O'Toole, in Stratford in 1959. [Pause for a moment of silent awe at the thought of what that production must have been like.] Then he says this: "The Shrew has recently been bogged down in deadening sexual politics which kill the central motor of the play. You cannot allow modern moral judgements to subvert the ethics of a play. The racism of The Merchant of Venice might not be to our liking, but it is the play, and if you don't engage with it the play does not happen. Inevitably, you filter things through your own contemporary mindset, but you change the ethical motors within a play at your peril." In 1955 in Sydney, I saw Robert Helpmann and Katherine Hepburn with the Old Vic Company playing 'Taming of the Shrew', 'The Merchant of Venice' and 'Measure for Measure'. They played all three pieces for all they were worth in the traditional manner and with hindsight I expect the PC brigade would have had a fit of the vapours, especially over Helpmann's Shylock and Petruchio, but they were brilliantly entertaining, although at the age of 18 I may have been somewhat green in judgement!
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Post by Mr Snow on Jan 12, 2018 9:35:16 GMT
I'm currently reading Tim Pigott-Smith's memoir, Do You Know Who I Am?, and I just came across a passage that struck me as relevant to this thread. He talks about having seen a production of The Taming of the Shrew, with Peggy Ashcroft and Peter O'Toole, in Stratford in 1959. [Pause for a moment of silent awe at the thought of what that production must have been like.] Then he says this: "The Shrew has recently been bogged down in deadening sexual politics which kill the central motor of the play. You cannot allow modern moral judgements to subvert the ethics of a play. The racism of The Merchant of Venice might not be to our liking, but it is the play, and if you don't engage with it the play does not happen. Inevitably, you filter things through your own contemporary mindset, but you change the ethical motors within a play at your peril." In 1955 in Sydney, I saw Robert Helpmann and Katherine Hepburn with the Old Vic Company playing 'Taming of the Shrew', 'The Merchant of Venice' and 'Measure for Measure'. They played all three pieces for all they were worth in the traditional manner and with hindsight I expect the PC brigade would have had a fit of the vapours, especially over Helpmann's Shylock and Petruchio, but they were brilliantly entertaining, although at the age of 18 I may have been somewhat green in judgement! Oh my….Katherine Hepburn. Sorry what was the tread about?
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Post by tonyloco on Jan 12, 2018 14:42:23 GMT
Mr Snow, it's the beauty of this website that one thing leads to another and changing the end of Carmen has led to Robert Helpmann and Katherine Hepburn. I am about to change my avatar to show how Helpmann (and the Old Vic director Michael Benthall and designer Loudon Sainthill) envisaged Shylock. Of course these days we would probably have Glenda Jackson or Diana Rigg as Shylock for starters!
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Post by tmesis on Jan 14, 2018 17:38:13 GMT
First of all Carmen has never been one of my favourite operas and there have been few productions of it over the years that I've enjoyed. I'm going to see the latest new production at ROH in two weeks and the pre-publicity is intriguing (alarming?):
'...Barrie Kosky's interpretation takes a provocative look at the many facets of this iconic woman....some cut passages have been restored, others amended and the dialogue replaced by narration.'
It's the last bit that sounds ominous.
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Post by tonyloco on Jan 14, 2018 19:42:17 GMT
First of all Carmen has never been one of my favourite operas and there have been few productions of it over the years that I've enjoyed. I'm going to see the latest new production at ROH in two weeks and the pre-publicity is intriguing (alarming?): '...Barrie Kosky's interpretation takes a provocative look at the many facets of this iconic woman....some cut passages have been restored, others amended and the dialogue replaced by narration.' It's the last bit that sounds ominous. I seem to remember a fairly recent production of 'Carmen' at the ENO where all the dialogue, both sung and spoken, was omitted. It was a disaster. I only went to see it because of the Australian tenor who was playing Don José, the rather rough and ready Julian Gavin. I can't find my diary note but I am sure I did not stay till the end. My first 'Carmen' was a very routine production back in Sydney in the 1950s where the Carmen was an oratorio contralto called Florence Taylor who was totally miscast as regards the acting, but when I came to London in 1960 there was a sensational production at Sadler's Wells in Rosebery Avenue starring Joyce Blackham and Donald Smith. The EMI highlights LP with Smith and Patricia Johnson conducted by Colin Davis gives a good sample of the powerful production. Oh, for ENO to get back to something like the musical and dramatic standards of those fine Sadler's Wells productions at Rosebery Avenue – but it ain't gonna happen, so I'd best shut up and get on with writing my memoirs.
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