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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 12:50:25 GMT
For what it's worth, I don't think it really matters even if a few examples like these come up. After all, the fact that a few instances exist doesn't really mean anything when it comes to the wider context of society as a whole. If you look hard enough I'm sure it's possible to find a few examples that lines up with just about any world view.". But it does show what is socially accepted, in commercials etc. And how 1 sided it all is. Nowadays men are objectified more than ever before. And worse, they are not allowed to say anything about it. They are being silenced. A very convenient way to use men exactly how you want them to be and only that. |
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Post by theatremadness on Oct 30, 2017 12:52:50 GMT
For what it's worth, I don't think it really matters even if a few examples like these come up. After all, the fact that a few instances exist doesn't really mean anything when it comes to the wider context of society as a whole. If you look hard enough I'm sure it's possible to find a few examples that lines up with just about any world view.". Nowadays men are objectified more than ever before. And worse, they are not allowed to say anything about it. They are being silenced. Ah, so now you know how women feel. And how what you're doing is exactly that. Besides all that, I don't believe the second part of your statement at all, based on what I've seen. |
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 12:53:11 GMT
About Rapp, I think this is a very personal issue, and a good conversation with the abuser can clear a lot. I understand that is not easy for a 14 year old, but it is for a 47 year old with some character. Organizing a press conference is all great, but I wonder when the most important thing is going to happen and he actually speaks to him. I simply cannot believe that in your heart of hearts, you seriously think that 1) the pain of abuse gets easier as you get older and 2) this can all be cleared with "a good conversation with the abuser"!!!!!!!!! This is a parody account, surely?! What's your solution? Not talking with the person, just shouting in the press? Are you a parody? We are talking about a grown middle aged men here, that needs to have enough personality to talk about something that happened to him as a kid. He was approached and said no and nothing sexual did happen. Yes, Spacey was wrong with the approach, so talk to him and ask him what was going on in his mind. If you care to know that is.... |
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 12:55:56 GMT
Nowadays men are objectified more than ever before. And worse, they are not allowed to say anything about it. They are being silenced. Ah, so now you know how women feel. And how what you're doing is exactly that. Besides all that, I don't believe the second part of your statement at all, based on what I've seen. I wish I knew how it felt to have an understanding platform like that and not being brushed aside by "shut up, any male would be happy with attention from women". And being able to silence the other sexe, and only being judged by sexiness or money. So no, it's hard to imagine. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:00:46 GMT
What's shocking and quite frankly disgusting about the Spacey story (other than the actual Anthony Rapp story itself, 14? Drunk or not, that should be career ending right there.) is that Spacey has tied his bizarre statement to his 'coming out'. Presumably so that this becomes the talking point and not the allegation and presumably so any criticism can be claimed as 'discrimination' or 'anti-gay'. There's so many hateful shades of wrong about that, I can't even begin.
It's no worse than Weinstein's "oh I'm from the 60s" excuse or whatever hogwash that was.
Have you no shame Kevin Spacey?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:03:37 GMT
I simply cannot believe that in your heart of hearts, you seriously think that 1) the pain of abuse gets easier as you get older and 2) this can all be cleared with "a good conversation with the abuser"!!!!!!!!! This is a parody account, surely?! What's your solution? Not talking with the person, just shouting in the press? Are you a parody? We are talking about a grown middle aged men here, that needs to have enough personality to talk about something that happened to him as a kid. He was approached and said no and nothing sexual did happen. Yes, Spacey was wrong with the approach, so talk to him and ask him what was going on in his mind. If you care to know that is.... He. Was. 14. A child. Whether he said no or not. He. Was. 14. 14. 14. 14. 14. 14. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:03:39 GMT
For what it's worth, I don't think it really matters even if a few examples like these come up. After all, the fact that a few instances exist doesn't really mean anything when it comes to the wider context of society as a whole. If you look hard enough I'm sure it's possible to find a few examples that lines up with just about any world view.". But it does show what is socially accepted, in commercials etc. And how 1 sided it all is. Nowadays men are objectified more than ever before. And worse, they are not allowed to say anything about it. They are being silenced. A very convenient way to use men exactly how you want them to be and only that. Dave, when it comes to adverts I would agree that men have historically been portrayed as dimwits who can’t do housework but I suspect that the underlying message here is that it is work that women should do. Ads that show men as objectified by women (Diet Coke ad) are only funny because they play on the irony that it is usually women who are subject to the male gaze so turning the tables creates a comic effect because it portrays an alternative universe where this is the new norm (which in reality it quite clearly isn't). |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:07:39 GMT
For what it's worth, I don't think it really matters even if a few examples like these come up. After all, the fact that a few instances exist doesn't really mean anything when it comes to the wider context of society as a whole. If you look hard enough I'm sure it's possible to find a few examples that lines up with just about any world view.". But it does show what is socially accepted, in commercials etc. And how 1 sided it all is. Nowadays men are objectified more than ever before. And worse, they are not allowed to say anything about it. They are being silenced. A very convenient way to use men exactly how you want them to be and only that. Dave, when it comes to adverts I would agree that men have historically been portrayed as dimwits who can’t do housework but I suspect that the underlying message here is that it is work that women should do. Ads that show men as objectified by women (Diet Coke ad) are only funny because they play on the irony that it is usually women who are subject to the male gaze so turning the tables creates a comic effect because it portrays an alternative universe where this is the new norm (which in reality it quite clearly isn't). |
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Post by sf on Oct 30, 2017 13:09:14 GMT
What's shocking and quite frankly disgusting about the Spacey story (other than the actual Anthony Rapp story itself, 14? Drunk or not, that should be career ending right there.) is that Spacey has tied his bizarre statement to his 'coming out'. Presumably so that this becomes the talking point and not the allegation and presumably so any criticism can be claimed as 'discrimination' or 'anti-gay'. There's so many hateful shades of wrong about that, I can't even begin. Absolutely. Reuters already fell into that particular trap, though they've since changed the emphasis of the story (they have not, though, removed the tweet with the headline 'Kevin Spacey declares he lives life as a gay man'). That statement wasn't an accident; since Rapp told the story, minus Spacey's name, to the Advocate more than 15 years ago, I would guess that Spacey's people have had a response ready to go for some time, just in case. It's a breathtakingly cynical move. (I have to hand it to Spacey, though - I thought he couldn't go any lower than that appalling performance of 'Bridge Over Troubled Water' at the Olivier Awards, and he's exceeded my expectations in spectacular fashion.) |
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 13:09:38 GMT
Dave, when it comes to adverts I would agree that men have historically been portrayed as dimwits who can’t do housework but I suspect that the underlying message here is that it is work that women should do. Ads that show men as objectified by women (Diet Coke ad) are only funny because they play on the irony that it is usually women who are subject to the male gaze so turning the tables creates a comic effect because it portrays an alternative universe where this is the new norm (which in reality it quite clearly isn't). I think that's not the case here, as it has nothing to do with work. This commercial is targeted towards women (they must buy the product) and made from a very objectifying female standpoint. To be clear, I am a person that is impossible to intimidate, but don't go saying that objectification is not a huge problem for men in society. The norm here is exactly what's happening in society. |
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Post by crowblack on Oct 30, 2017 13:11:16 GMT
I think this is more like the (presumably still overwhelmingly male) ad industry saying "it's OK to objectify women, because look - we now objectify young men too!" I regard it as like the "final girl" trope in horror films, which some people try to claim is empowering but I think is just a get-out by the male film-makers to excuse a lot of often highly sexualised violence and gore by saying, look - the last one standing is female! |
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 13:12:10 GMT
What's your solution? Not talking with the person, just shouting in the press? Are you a parody? We are talking about a grown middle aged men here, that needs to have enough personality to talk about something that happened to him as a kid. He was approached and said no and nothing sexual did happen. Yes, Spacey was wrong with the approach, so talk to him and ask him what was going on in his mind. If you care to know that is.... He. Was. 14. A child. Whether he said no or not. He. Was. 14. I'm saying the approach was wrong. And luckily nothing sexual happened. But a 47 year old man should realize that a press conference about this incident as a kid is not helping his personal situation between him and Spacey. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:12:37 GMT
What's your solution? Not talking with the person, just shouting in the press? Are you a parody? We are talking about a grown middle aged men here, that needs to have enough personality to talk about something that happened to him as a kid. He was approached and said no and nothing sexual did happen. Yes, Spacey was wrong with the approach, so talk to him and ask him what was going on in his mind. If you care to know that is.... He. Was. 14. A child. Whether he said no or not. He. Was. 14. 14. 14. 14. 14. 14. Exactly this. And Rapp certainly didn't look older (for any idiot about to trot out that defence, his picture from the time is in the Buzzfeed article) It doesn't matter if/how drunk Spacey was. It doesn't matter whether it was a boy or a girl or what sexuality Spacey claims then or now. Rapp was a child. I don't need or indeed want to know what was going on in Spacey's mind it was wrong. There's no more to it. Rapp is under no responsibility or obligation to speak with him- if he chooses to for his own sense of closure that's his call. Rapp spoke in the press (he's said as much himself via Twitter) in order to raise awareness of another sexual predator he was aware of. And all respect to him for being able to. ETA: Rapp has no 'personal situation' to resolve with Spacey. He's speaking out to expose the wider issue. |
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Post by theatremadness on Oct 30, 2017 13:13:29 GMT
I simply cannot believe that in your heart of hearts, you seriously think that 1) the pain of abuse gets easier as you get older and 2) this can all be cleared with "a good conversation with the abuser"!!!!!!!!! This is a parody account, surely?! What's your solution? Not talking with the person, just shouting in the press? Are you a parody? We are talking about a grown middle aged men here, that needs to have enough personality to talk about something that happened to him as a kid. He was approached and said no and nothing sexual did happen. In case you haven't been paying attention, I'd say the best solution is for as many people as possible to become formally aware of these events and the people behind them, not just gossip or "we've all heard stories, haven't we". This is not "shouting in the press" and the fact you dismiss it as such is the biggest part of the problem. People bravely come forward with these horrifying stories of abuse and then people like you go and victim blame. Other victims then see your reaction and instead of coming forward with their own stories, they decide to keep it to themselves for fear of public mocking. You really don't see the problem here and how you're part of it, do you? Their ages now, their personalities and the fact that "nothing sexual did happen" is almost irrelevant and it's worrying, yet again, that you are trying to make some sort of excuse for Spacey's alleged behaviour?! The fact that something sexual is alleged to have happened with a 26 year old man forcing himself on a 14 year old boy showing no signs of stopping until the boy forced his way out is the point. The repercussions this has had for the 14 year old boy is the point. The bravery with which Rapp has taken in speaking out - an act which has taken him 30 years to do - is the point. Publicly speaking out so these alleged sexual predators have nowhere to hide is the point. All these points which you seem to be repeatedly missing, whether it's on purpose or not I'm not sure. |
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Post by jadnoop on Oct 30, 2017 13:17:31 GMT
For what it's worth, I don't think it really matters even if a few examples like these come up. After all, the fact that a few instances exist doesn't really mean anything when it comes to the wider context of society as a whole. If you look hard enough I'm sure it's possible to find a few examples that lines up with just about any world view.". But it does show what is socially accepted, in commercials etc. And how 1 sided it all is. Nowadays men are objectified more than ever before. And worse, they are not allowed to say anything about it. They are being silenced. A very convenient way to use men exactly how you want them to be and only that. Sure, you can take an advert as an example of the objectification of men, but to talk about what's 'socially accepted' you need to put that case in the wider context. I very much doubt that anyone is suggesting that there are no instances whatsoever where men are objectifed or are the victims of sexism, but to suggest that that's the norm is silly. When it comes to individual posts & stories, the stuff that goes 'viral' is the most extreme & unusual, so pretty much by definition it's the least likely to be the norm. |
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Post by theatremadness on Oct 30, 2017 13:17:59 GMT
He. Was. 14. A child. Whether he said no or not. He. Was. 14. I'm saying the approach was wrong. And luckily nothing sexual happened. But a 47 year old man should realize that a press conference about this incident as a kid is not helping his personal situation between him and Spacey. No, hang on. You really, really, *really* think Rapp is or should be worried about his personal situation with Spacey?!?!? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:18:03 GMT
He. Was. 14. A child. Whether he said no or not. He. Was. 14. 14. 14. 14. 14. 14. I'm saying the approach was wrong. And luckily nothing sexual happened. But a 47 year old man should realize that a press conference about this incident as a kid is not helping his personal situation between him and Spacey. People deal with situations in different ways. Who knows what he's done privately up to now to deal with it. Let Spacey sue then. Let's see how that pans out and what else comes out of the woodwork. Pardon the pun. I know I love them but it's really unintentional this time. |
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 13:18:21 GMT
ETA: Rapp has no 'personal situation' to resolve with Spacey. He's speaking out to expose the wider issue. I think he does, when he says he's being angry for over 30 years about approaching him. |
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Post by Dave25 on Oct 30, 2017 13:21:22 GMT
I'm saying the approach was wrong. And luckily nothing sexual happened. But a 47 year old man should realize that a press conference about this incident as a kid is not helping his personal situation between him and Spacey. No, hang on. You really, really, *really* think Rapp is or should be worried about his personal situation with Spacey?!?!? I think an apology and a good talk a long time ago would have prevented 30 years of witheld yet increasing anger, but feel free to disagree. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:22:16 GMT
ETA: Rapp has no 'personal situation' to resolve with Spacey. He's speaking out to expose the wider issue. I think he does, when he says he's being angry for over 30 years about approaching him. Ring ring. "Hello?" "Hi Kevin Spacey, this is Anthony Rapp. You might not remember me but you jumped on top of me at a party when I was 14 and I'd like to speak to you about it." I'm not a psychic but I'm guessing that call isn't going to go well. Tsk. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:22:39 GMT
ETA: Rapp has no 'personal situation' to resolve with Spacey. He's speaking out to expose the wider issue. I think he does, when he says he's being angry for over 30 years about approaching him. And I don't doubt he does but not in the same way you're implying. Rapp no doubt is angry-rightly so. He's probably had residual trauma from it. He's no doubt dealt with this privately, and/or in therapy (Rapp has written about such things in his book so it's no stretch to assume he has previously, or will be seeking professional support in dealing with this himself) No victim is under obligation to personally resolve something with their attacker. And I'm running out of ways to explain that to you. Rapp isn't undertaking this for fame or fortune (And on that I am pulling out the fact I have SOME personal knowledge of the man himself) he's no doubt sought legal advice in even speaking on it. This is about exposing Spacey, and giving other victims the space to come forward. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:24:36 GMT
Ok this is my last word to Dave: how is an apology and a long talk resolving the fundamentally wrong act on Spacey's part? If he had drunkely propositioned a man his own age at the time (26 ish) and taken it no further than a drunken come on, that's an act 'talking about it' resolves. Even if Rapp was his own age, forcing himself on him to the point Rapp had to fight him off is still categorically wrong.
But Rapp was 14. He was a child.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 13:25:35 GMT
No, hang on. You really, really, *really* think Rapp is or should be worried about his personal situation with Spacey?!?!? I think an apology and a good talk a long time ago would have prevented 30 years of witheld yet increasing anger, but feel free to disagree. Why shouldn't he be angry? Spacey should be thankful that this is how he's dealt with it. I think I might have ripped off his testicles with my bare hands and posted them to the New York Times but that's just me. |
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Post by Phantom of London on Oct 30, 2017 13:25:39 GMT
The news that broke today that kevin Spacey is gay, is certainly secondary.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Oct 30, 2017 13:27:56 GMT
Dave, a question re: choosing whether or not to feel intimidated. What actions do you take in your daily life to avoid being raped? Have often do you personally find yourself in a situation where you are genuinely afraid you might be sexually assaulted? How confident are you in your physical ability to fight off a rapist? How often has your job depended on being sexually attractive, or being nice to people who sexually harass you? How frequently do your colleagues and bosses make sexual comments about your body? How frequently are you catcalled by strangers? How frequently do strangers yell sexually explicit things at you?
That ad is sexist (towards women) and objectifies women. There's no way it wasn't created by men, for the male gaze. A woman cruelly rejects her poor oppressed husband by denying him his right to sex, but one quick shampoo later and women are throwing themselves at him and flashing their boobs while he grins broadly and is visibly overjoyed? It's not a coincidence they chose to cast a "regular Joe" looking guy, and busty model-looking women.
If you feel oppressed by an ad portraying men as being desperate for sex, blame toxic masculinity (which hurts men as well as women). It's not a double standard, it's the exact same old patriarchal objectifying BS.
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