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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 10:58:45 GMT
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Post by theatremadness on Jul 29, 2017 11:19:17 GMT
The whole sorry episode is a bit of a sh*t show, really. None of this had to be about race, in fact none of this had to happen at all, but the producers handled the whole thing horrifically with a statement that just seemed to make everything worse. So now Oak will not be returning after Aug 13th, Mandy won't be stepping in, they have no Pierre, sales are disastrously low (see a tweet thread from the show's writer/creator Dave Malloy) and now the show will probably be forced to close much sooner rather than later because of how the whole thing was handled.
The producers are very much to blame (hence why I believe Mandy has pulled out, Oak won't be returning and Josh Groban tweeted something too where he expressed that the whole thing was "handled poorly plain and simple") but a hell of a lot of fuss was made by fans over this claiming that this purely and completely a race issue. Asking a POC to leave early to let a white man take over, that sort of thing, whereas I believe this wasn't the case or intention or whatever. Oak didn't bring the sales in that they had hoped, and instead of closing, they decided to bring a 'name' in to boost sales. I'd say Mandy Patinkin is far more than stunt casting with his extensive career in theatre, but still, he's famous enough in America now to boost the sales of a show. So the move to 'replace' Oak with Mandy was purely a business one, but the outcry from the fans has, in part, also led to where we are now, the potential situation that the entire show may close and everyone will be out of a job.
However, when you have a POC in a show, it is undeniable that it's a pretty ignorant move to replace him (and cut his run short) with a middle-aged white man without thinking of the potential consequences, then proceed to make a throwaway remark that you hope Oak will come back again afterwards, after his original run was supposed to end. You really have to pick your moments, and the timing here was just excruciatingly bad. It goes without saying that if a white man was currently playing Pierre then Mandy taking over wouldn't have been an issue, obviously, because there is another white man around the corner ready to take on a multitude of roles. As we know and has been discussed at great length, opportunities for POC actors are nowhere near what they could be, so to literally take away time from an already limited run of a POC actor in a show that already celebrates diversity was an awful decision and whoever is behind it, producers or what, have been pretty naive, blind, oblivious, whatever you want to call it. And now here we are!
Anyhow, I'm not a POC so maybe I'm not the best person to speak in length about it, but that's just how I see it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 11:27:37 GMT
I hate the way they treated Oak. No actor should ever be forced out of there role so someone else can take over. However, bringing race into this is a bit of a stretch. The only reason why they wanted Mandy instead of Oak is because he's a bankable name.
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Post by viserys on Jul 29, 2017 12:42:40 GMT
I think @theatremadness worded it all perfectly, I have nothing to add. Producers went about it in a terrible terrible way. I mostly feel sorry for the actors involved, Oak, who was pushed out in this awful way and Mandy, who got caught up in it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 14:31:45 GMT
I'm really saddened by all of this.
First of all, what a shame that this show needs a celebrity in it to run. Whilst it is too weird and unconventional for me to ever expect it to be a huge hit, I would have thought that 9 months into its Broadway run (and 5 years after its first run off-Broadway) it would have garnered enough of a reputation and fanbase that it should be able to last for a while without. The most Tony nominations of the season, easily the best performance on the Tonys and then this? As much as Broadway may have patted themselves on the back last year for championing a revolutionary and groundbreaking show in Hamilton, this show is as much those things and yet it has been an afterthought to another show that is doing nothing we haven't seen before. And this is why we have to understand that as much as some people like to claim otherwise, awards do matter. If this show had won big at the Tonys, its grosses would be coasting along nicely, and so would the show that actually did win big at the Tonys, which has been a success from day one. I'm not suggesting that they should always vote for the shows that aren't doing as well, but not even giving it best director which anyone with a brain could see that it deserved just says it all. Despite the best efforts of the creators and cast, Broadway was never particularly open to giving this show a chance.
Aside from all that, the big mistake here as far as I can see is casting Oak in the first place. They must have seen how their grosses went down when Josh Groban was out and the fact that they thought Oak would be someone that could pack audiences in in the same way is pretty mindboggling. I can actually understand why the producers of Amelie thought Phillipa Soo would be a draw (and I'm surprised at how much she wasn't) but Oak had such a minor part to play in Hamilton and has absolutely zero name recognition. He's absolutely talented enough to play Pierre, but they should have had the foresight to see that they needed someone bigger. Once they had made the mistake of casting him, then if they needed to ask him to leave in order to keep the show open then yes that's what they needed to do. I certainly don't blame them for resorting to that in order to keep the show alive and keep jobs on the table, but they should have anticipated the backlash and handled it in a much more considerate manner. The way they have responded to the controversy has been pretty appalling.
Unfortunately the outrage culture on Twitter has led to Mandy pulling out which now means (as far as I can see) the show will close on Oak's last day. If this is the case, it means Brittain Ashford who has been playing Sonya since day one in 2012 has already played her last performance without even knowing it. It means this huge, diverse group of talented performers (60% of whom were making their Broadway debuts) will be out of work. It means that all the hard work that was done last year with Hamilton in encouraging diverse and groundbreaking pieces to make their way to Broadway will have been undone by how off-putting this example would be. It just pains me to see how much effort has been put into this show and for what? For it to end like this?
All I can do is wish the best for Dave Malloy, Rachel Chavkin and the cast (including Oak) and hope that this show has a future somewhere, whether that be on Broadway, off-Broadway, on tour, a London production, whatever. I really can't bear the thought of it just disappearing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 16:18:55 GMT
How else could the producers have handled the situation?
- Leave Oak in place till the end of his contract at the risk the show closes before his replacement, putting dozens out of work. - Replace Oak with another PoC - still sh*tty for Oak - risks creating a limiting precedent in terms of casting if done to avoid controversy. - Throw money at advertising/promotion/papering - risks bringing the closure of the show even further forward - Closed the show gracefully at the end of the current period
Not too many good choices.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 16:47:08 GMT
How else could the producers have handled the situation? - Leave Oak in place till the end of his contract at the risk the show closes before his replacement, putting dozens out of work. - Replace Oak with another PoC - still sh*tty for Oak - risks creating a limiting precedent in terms of casting if done to avoid controversy. - Throw money at advertising/promotion/papering - risks bringing the closure of the show even further forward - Closed the show gracefully at the end of the current period Not too many good choices. Seems like the last option would have been the best option by far.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 16:48:00 GMT
Closing the show when there's a chance to keep it open is never the right choice for producers.
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Post by ali973 on Jul 29, 2017 18:32:53 GMT
How else could the producers have handled the situation? - Leave Oak in place till the end of his contract at the risk the show closes before his replacement, putting dozens out of work. - Replace Oak with another PoC - still sh*tty for Oak - risks creating a limiting precedent in terms of casting if done to avoid controversy. - Throw money at advertising/promotion/papering - risks bringing the closure of the show even further forward - Closed the show gracefully at the end of the current period Not too many good choices. Theatremadness captured it perfectly. It was just sh*tty PR. Their decision to abruptly replace Oak was fine, and completely justified. But it's clear that they are tone-deaf and have absolutely no coordination when it comes to their narrative or communication. Producers issued their own statement without considering how things would come across to the public. Oak issued his own "statement" on Instagram that TOTALLY contradicts with the statement of the producers. He says his exit is permanent, while they say he might be back in Winter. Get your story together people. Dave Malloy chimed in stupidly and in the process exposed the fact that they've done this to Brittain as well, and then the producers chime in again saying they had no idea Oak "felt this way" (what exactly to they mean? He was pretty passive for the most part..it seems patronizing), and then issued a statement saying that Mandy had no idea this was all happening? All of it is just mismanaged and completely reactive. All they needed to do was bring all the parties together behind closed doors. Oak should have been asked to step aside for Mandy, and they needed to agree THEN AND THERE if this was permanent or temporary. Based on this agreement, their statement should have indicated that he is stepping aside for Mandy until XYZ date. I believe in the original Ingrid Michelson release, they said that Brittain is taking leave for personal reasons. Use that excuse. In the meantime and while Oak is off, say we are so amazing that we managed to get a Broadway LEGEND to fill in. If Oak decided not to come back, then all they needed to say, for reasons beyond his control, Oak decided to leave. They issue a JOINT statement where everyone gives everyone a blessing. Mandy says he's got big shoes to fill, Oak says he's looking forward to coming back (or whatever). Dave says Mandy is a legend. Done. So, no, this isn't about race, but the fact that they were so blind sighted and dumb not to be able to foresee this is probably an indication of their little or no regard for race politics. Further to that, Brittain's departure was handled very sensitively and without causing any humiliation. It's not crazy for someone to make an assumption that their lack of empathy or sensitivity to Oak is due to their disregard with him being person of color. I'm not suggesting that it is, but given that this is a news story, as a producer you should be tuned in and be able to preempt how a public will make of this whatever they want to make of it. Most importantly, as a producer, you need to CONTROL the communication and the narrative. They did no such thing. It was a perfect situation for the case to be hijacked for a cause because there was such an information vacuum.
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Post by viserys on Jul 29, 2017 20:19:16 GMT
very well written ali973, honestly, they should have let you handle their PR...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 21:01:28 GMT
How else could the producers have handled the situation? - Leave Oak in place till the end of his contract at the risk the show closes before his replacement, putting dozens out of work. - Replace Oak with another PoC - still sh*tty for Oak - risks creating a limiting precedent in terms of casting if done to avoid controversy. - Throw money at advertising/promotion/papering - risks bringing the closure of the show even further forward - Closed the show gracefully at the end of the current period Not too many good choices. Theatremadness captured it perfectly. It was just sh*tty PR. Their decision to abruptly replace Oak was fine, and completely justified. But it's clear that they are tone-deaf and have absolutely no coordination when it comes to their narrative or communication. Of course there's no coordination. They've just fired the guy. He's hardly going to be sticking to the exact same message as the people who just fired him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 21:29:29 GMT
How else could the producers have handled the situation? - Leave Oak in place till the end of his contract at the risk the show closes before his replacement, putting dozens out of work. - Replace Oak with another PoC - still sh*tty for Oak - risks creating a limiting precedent in terms of casting if done to avoid controversy. - Throw money at advertising/promotion/papering - risks bringing the closure of the show even further forward - Closed the show gracefully at the end of the current period Not too many good choices. Theatremadness captured it perfectly. It was just sh*tty PR. Their decision to abruptly replace Oak was fine, and completely justified. But it's clear that they are tone-deaf and have absolutely no coordination when it comes to their narrative or communication. "They did nothing wrong, but they didn't tell us in the right way that they had done nothing wrong".
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Post by Phantom of London on Jul 29, 2017 23:16:41 GMT
Why apologies the producers were doing their job and that is to save a show that has tanked at the box office and their latest talent did nothing to improve on that - that is why ultimately he got replaced, don't think the motivation was racial. A show running will provides many jobs for actors, no matter the skin colour, that is the power of a running show, a closed show is good to no one, nothing more, nothing less.
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Post by ali973 on Jul 30, 2017 5:35:34 GMT
Why apologies the producers were doing their job They are fully entitled to terminate whoever they want, but all they needed to was manage people and perception. A producer's job is to manage all their internal and external stakeholders. For a business that is dependent on having an audience to float, they did such a bad job communicating with their audience and managing their own team. As a result, they came across as arrogant, ignorant and sloppy. They didn't need to apologize, they just needed to be more tactical and savvy. They are in the business of arts. Communication is also art. All businesses have stakeholders and audiences to manage. I've seen much smaller enterprises do this right with the combination of good messaging ("spin", if we have to) and planning.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 12:24:05 GMT
I agree with what's been said previously, it was just a PR disaster that made The Great Comet look incompetent, racist and tone deaf.
I think people framing this as a racial issue "POC replaced by a white actor.... LIKE ALWAYS" are mistaken, I can see why you'd come to this conclusion, but TGC did the exact same thing barely a few months previously with Brittain and Ingrid and there was no fanfare at all. In this business, when shows aren't selling, sometimes high profile names need to be brought in. In this instance it was just unfortunate that it was a white actor replacing a person of colour.
I think it's misguided and a bit stupid to go "see, look, this is always happening! Broadway HATES non-white people!", there are definitely discussions to be had with regards to systemic racism, but to lay it at the door of a show that already has a very diverse cast is more likely to put people off attempting diverse casting in future than encourage them. I mean, are we going to have an argument every time a white actor replaces a person of colour in a role, ever? Because if we want to see truly colour blind casting, this will happen, and it's not racism, it's just the fact that when casting blindly, you can't just choose actors of one ethnicity forever just to appease those who speak before they think (if you want to openly say "no we aren't casting blindly" then fine, but casting the best person for the role will provide a mix).
The problem here was that The Great Comet didn't think to make sure everybody had the same story before they put out their press release, meaning that their cast and creative team were taking to social media with directly contradictory reports of what was going on. They forgot to decide if Oak was going to succeed Mandy after his run, meaning that some people were saying he was, and others were saying he wasn't, and others had no answer because they hadn't thought more than 3 weeks ahead. Mandy hadn't been informed that an actor was being asked to step aside for him, and Oak hadn't been pre-warned that he might be forced out of his contract at any moment if he didn't increase ticket sales (this was very wrong). When the sh*t hit the fan, they rushed to try and perform damage limitation, but they were still shifting the blame onto their cast, saying it was about how Oak FELT rather than what they DID, and lapping passive aggressive blame onto both him and Mandy for leaving them without a Pierre when it was their own fault.
I don't see what they can do in this situation. They can't ask Oak to stay on because they've been so vile to him that he can't wait to get out of there, they can't get another celebrity to replace Mandy because it'd make them still look insensitive, and also the role is heavily tainted, the only thing they can really do is put the understudy on and hope that this will all die down given time. Unfortunately once that time has elapsed, they may well find themselves running at a substantial loss every week. I think it'll close.
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Post by dubbie on Jul 30, 2017 13:20:35 GMT
Interesting that Cynthia Erivo is now getting a lot of hate from the Broadway community for implying in her tweets that this was race related and contributing to the backlash. She really is destroying her reputation on both sides of the atlantic now.
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Post by d'James on Jul 30, 2017 13:31:21 GMT
Interesting that Cynthia Erivo is now getting a lot of hate from the Broadway community for implying in her tweets that this was race related and contributing to the backlash. She really is destroying her reputation on both sides of the atlantic now. I kind of admire her for always standing up for what she believes in; I just think she often picks the wrong 'battles,' and ends up looking bad.
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Post by ali973 on Jul 30, 2017 14:03:34 GMT
I don't normally agree with her, but I see where she's coming from.
It's not about race, no. But as Denee Benton just said, and said so rightly, that in today's non-color blind society, everything is about race. The fact that the producers didn't see that this could have been racialised is a problem itself.
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Post by dubbie on Jul 30, 2017 14:07:55 GMT
I agree with her that it's disrespectful to ask someone to step out of their role and allow a bigger celeb to come in, but at the same time the producers have an obligation to investors to make the show as successful as possible, and she knows that.
Anyway I have tickets to Oak's last show on August 13th (at a huge discount) which could also end up being closing night too. The atmosphere should be special, but I have no idea what to expect of the show itself.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 14:15:10 GMT
I don't normally agree with her, but I see where she's coming from. It's not about race, no. But as Denee Benton just said, and said so rightly, that in today's non-color blind society, everything is about race. The fact that the producers didn't see that this could have been racialised is a problem itself. This is very true, but how can is it possible to deal with this specific element of the problem? If they'd got a famous person of colour instead of Mandy to take over, then when they cast their next Pierre if they were white they'd still have people angry that they'd replaced a POC with a white actor. You'd get blogs and think-pieces talking about how it was a missed opportunity to earmark a landmark role for people of colour as they're under represented and we'd have people talking about the culture of POCs not getting lead roles, as though this is something the already diverse Great Comet needs to be held responsible for. Sometimes the toughest conversations are the ones where it needs to be said that actually racism wasn't at work here, and although we do need to have the more general conversations about casting on Broadway, in this instance they did a lot wrong but it WASN'T racially motivated. (Sorry ali973, I wasn't having a go at you, I was just agreeing and trying to add to what you said but ending up going off on one).
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Post by ali973 on Jul 30, 2017 14:21:03 GMT
I think there were ways where they could have controlled it. They were just so excited over getting Mandy, and lost sight of everything else.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 14:27:23 GMT
According to someone on BWW they're courting another name now, although the poster thinks they wont make anyone excited. We'll wait and see because I didn't think Ingrid Michaelson would make much of an impact but she has kept the grosses healthy.
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Post by Phantom of London on Jul 30, 2017 14:45:40 GMT
Why apologies the producers were doing their job They are fully entitled to terminate whoever they want, but all they needed to was manage people and perception. A producer's job is to manage all their internal and external stakeholders. For a business that is dependent on having an audience to float, they did such a bad job communicating with their audience and managing their own team. As a result, they came across as arrogant, ignorant and sloppy. They didn't need to apologize, they just needed to be more tactical and savvy. They are in the business of arts. Communication is also art. All businesses have stakeholders and audiences to manage. I've seen much smaller enterprises do this right with the combination of good messaging ("spin", if we have to) and planning. I agree with you that the handling has been arrogant, but not ignorant and sloppy nor racist that has also been applied, it has been solely a business management decision that has spectacularly backfired, it also came across as heartless and crass. Actors get replaced all the time if they don't have box office clout, that is Broadway unfortunately, if a star BAM actor replaced a white actor because of stuttering box office, then nothing would have been said, the sole mistake the producers made was employ an actor who had no box office clout, stars sell shows and unfortunately Oak isn't one of them. The most important issue is to keep the show on the road that employs many people of different skin colour.
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Post by Phantom of London on Aug 9, 2017 0:33:30 GMT
Closing notices posted.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 1:27:24 GMT
Huge shame. Can't remember a recent instance in which a show this good ran less than 12 months. I would probably be more upset but I've been expecting it for weeks. Not going to comment on the backstage stuff as I don't think we've been given the whole story at all judging by this Facebook post of an ensemble member: I'll quote it in case she deletes it: 'I won't address the specifics of the situation because I don't know them, save to say that of what I have seen within the building over the last week or so, it's my opinion and instinct that what has happened is a very different picture than the one that has been narrated for the public. We have this special thing in this country called Freedom of Speech and with that comes great responsibility. Words affect and are affecting. Words like "racist" should be reserved for those who truly are that, or the word loses weight and gravitas for when it's really needed and warranted. Using it carelessly has harmful and hurtful repercussions. To those in the forefront or the periphery of the recent events, whose actions propelled the show to close sooner than it would have, and certainly under more negative circumstances than it would have, I wonder if you ultimately got what you wanted. And I wonder that if you did, whether getting it at the expense of an entire building of people's hearts and livelihoods feels worth it.'
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