67 posts
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Post by orchestrator on Jul 17, 2017 20:54:10 GMT
When Adelaide and Sarah meet before Marry The Man Today they sing a delicious counterpoint of Adelaide’s Lament and I’ve Never Been In Love Before.
Now/Later/Soon from A Little Night Music.
The Five Admirals from Pacific Overtures.
Rain On The Roof/Ah Paris/Broadway Baby kind of get mashed together in Follies.
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Post by d'James on Jul 17, 2017 21:13:13 GMT
Does it have to be a combination of two previously heard songs in the score or can it be a specifically written piece of music with lots of people singing different melodies?
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4,211 posts
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Post by anthony40 on Jul 17, 2017 21:17:59 GMT
Not Me from the musical AIDA
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1,347 posts
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Post by tmesis on Jul 17, 2017 21:41:27 GMT
A really obvious one I'd forgotten is 'The Rhythm of Life' from Sweet Charity. This has some counterpoint that even Bach might have been moderately impressed with (I did say moderately) albeit with a few blue notes added. A very clever number but great tunes as well.
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345 posts
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Post by johartuk on Jul 17, 2017 23:01:23 GMT
'Please' from 'Miss Saigon' has a great bit of counterpoint in the last bit of the song.
'I'll Dress You In Mourning' (reprise) from 'Matador' had Domingo's Sister, Lover and First Love singing the song and providing the counterpoint moment.
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43 posts
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Post by sayers500 on Jul 17, 2017 23:42:35 GMT
Quando Me'en Vo from La Boheme
+1 for the Meistersinger quintet
+1 Final trio for Der Rosenkavalier
Take Good Care of yourself from Marguerite
Opening doors from Merrily we roll along
Ladies in their sensitivities from Sweeney Todd
The frogs from The Frogs
Company from Company
Another winter in a summer town from Grey Gardens- a really simple countermelody that leaves me in tears every time
The finale of Grand Hotel
Also thought that this technique has been used in plays quite a bit recently especially in
Anatomy of a suicide, The Homosexuals guide to capitalism and socialism with a key to the scriptures and
Angels in America.
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1,347 posts
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Post by tmesis on Jul 18, 2017 6:33:00 GMT
I'm on a roll...
Love the bit in Sound of Music where Maria and Von Trapp are getting married.
Rogers has the Processional March playing (which with hindsight sounds quite John Williamsesque) and then the nuns come in singing How do you solve a Problem Like Maria? This is really clever as both tunes are exceptionally strong but utterly different and work effortlessly together with no hint of contrivance that you get in some composers' efforts.
Not quite so impressive, but still damn good is how Rogers combines the 'Do Me Me Me So So' tune with the 'When you know the Notes to Sing' bit in Do-re Mi.
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4,984 posts
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jul 18, 2017 7:35:08 GMT
All the counterpoint from Cosi fan tutti - I absolutely adore the score. Mozart's finest
Make our garden grow has got to be the best from a 'musical' perspective
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 8:28:52 GMT
Does it have to be a combination of two previously heard songs in the score or can it be a specifically written piece of music with lots of people singing different melodies? It does not have to be of two previously heard songs, it just seems that in musical theatre the most significant use of counterpoint is with reoccurring musical themes to heighten emotion. |
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1,347 posts
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Post by tmesis on Jul 18, 2017 8:42:06 GMT
All the counterpoint from Cosi fan tutti - I absolutely adore the score. Mozart's finest Make our garden grow has got to be the best from a 'musical' perspective I'm totally with you on Cosi, it's Mozart's most sublime opera and my own personal favourite. Act 1 is one spellbinding ensemble after another. Act 2 has more solo arias (he had to give in to the egos of his performers) but then in the finale there's the sublime canon, probably the greatest bit of counterpoint in all MT. From a MT point of view Mozart basically invented the contrapuntal ensemble (although he wouldn't have called it that.) Prior to that it was nearly always a succession of solo arias. So if you admire these moments in Sondheim, Berlin, Cy Coleman, Bernstein, Rogers et al; it all comes from Wolfgang. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 9:35:10 GMT
Quando Me'en Vo from La Boheme +1 for the Meistersinger quintet +1 Final trio for Der Rosenkavalier Take Good Care of yourself from Marguerite Opening doors from Merrily we roll along Ladies in their sensitivities from Sweeney Todd The frogs from The Frogs Company from Company Another winter in a summer town from Grey Gardens- a really simple countermelody that leaves me in tears every time The finale of Grand Hotel Also thought that this technique has been used in plays quite a bit recently especially in Anatomy of a suicide, The Homosexuals guide to capitalism and socialism with a key to the scriptures and Angels in America. Are these genuinely all your favourite CP moments or are you just listing every example of couterpoint you can think of? haha.  |
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Post by d'James on Jul 18, 2017 9:37:02 GMT
Does it have to be a combination of two previously heard songs in the score or can it be a specifically written piece of music with lots of people singing different melodies? It does not have to be of two previously heard songs, it just seems that in musical theatre the most significant use of counterpoint is with reoccurring musical themes to heighten emotion. Thank you. |
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43 posts
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Post by sayers500 on Jul 18, 2017 10:38:38 GMT
Quando Me'en Vo from La Boheme +1 for the Meistersinger quintet +1 Final trio for Der Rosenkavalier Take Good Care of yourself from Marguerite Opening doors from Merrily we roll along Ladies in their sensitivities from Sweeney Todd The frogs from The Frogs Company from Company Another winter in a summer town from Grey Gardens- a really simple countermelody that leaves me in tears every time The finale of Grand Hotel Also thought that this technique has been used in plays quite a bit recently especially in Anatomy of a suicide, The Homosexuals guide to capitalism and socialism with a key to the scriptures and Angels in America. Are these genuinely all your favourite CP moments or are you just listing every example of couterpoint you can think of? haha. For my music GCSE composition a few years ago I had to create a song from a musical and used counterpoint as a jumping off point. To be honest, any song with that technique is likely to become my favourite song in a musical. |
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Post by mrtumnus on Jul 18, 2017 12:34:10 GMT
A couple of good One Day More political parodies. linkUpdated with Donald link |
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227 posts
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Post by paulbrownsey on Jul 18, 2017 14:47:48 GMT
I find nothing as thrilling as a bunch of characters singing over each other and independently expressing exactly what's going on in their mind. It has to be one of my favorite musical theatre devices, normally done as an Act I finale to wrap things up while ticking the box on so many characters sub-plots. Here's a list of my favorite. Curious what yours may be.. *Les Miserables (the mother of all counterpoint Act I Finales): One Day More *Les Miserables: Confrontation *Kiss of the Spiderwpman: Anything For Him *Hamilton: Non-Stop *Book of Mormon: Man Up *Great Comet: Letters (kind of) *West Side Story: America *Little Night Music: A Weekend in the Country *Chess: Model of Decorum and Tranquility ..any more? |
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227 posts
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Post by paulbrownsey on Jul 18, 2017 14:49:28 GMT
I find nothing as thrilling as a bunch of characters singing over each other and independently expressing exactly what's going on in their mind. It has to be one of my favorite musical theatre devices, normally done as an Act I finale to wrap things up while ticking the box on so many characters sub-plots. Here's a list of my favorite. Curious what yours may be.. *Les Miserables (the mother of all counterpoint Act I Finales): One Day More *Les Miserables: Confrontation *Kiss of the Spiderwpman: Anything For Him *Hamilton: Non-Stop *Book of Mormon: Man Up *Great Comet: Letters (kind of) *West Side Story: America *Little Night Music: A Weekend in the Country *Chess: Model of Decorum and Tranquility ..any more? The merging of "Now", "Soon" and Later" in A Little Night Music; especially in the Original London Cast recording (Joss Ackland et al). |
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227 posts
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Post by paulbrownsey on Jul 18, 2017 14:54:05 GMT
Irving Berlin was good at this. I'm surprised no-one has mentioned "You're Just In Love" from Call Me Madam (which reportedly required something like six encores on the first night) and "Play A Simple Melody" from (inter alia) There's No Business Like Show Business:
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Post by tmesis on Jul 18, 2017 15:42:49 GMT
Irving Berlin was good at this. I'm surprised no-one has mentioned "You're Just In Love" from Call Me Madam (which reportedly required something like six encores on the first night) and "Play A Simple Melody" from (inter alia) There's No Business Like Show Business: I mentioned them on page 1. |
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Post by Mr Snow on Jul 18, 2017 15:47:24 GMT
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1,347 posts
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Post by tmesis on Jul 18, 2017 15:52:55 GMT
The Loesser is a great example and it is, more or less, a proper fugue. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jul 18, 2017 16:15:26 GMT
Gilbert and Sullivan used these techniques in many of the Savoy Operas:
Pirates of Penzance has How Beautifully Blue The Sky and When the Foeman
Patience has In a doleful train which develops into a great double chorus
Yeomen of the Guard opening of Act 2
Just to name a few
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134 posts
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Post by Kenneth_C on Jul 18, 2017 16:43:52 GMT
I think my absolute favorite is "Kiss Me/Ladies in Their Sensitivities" from Sweeney Todd. It's rapturous, suspenseful, and features one of the cleverest uses of counterpoint I can think of:
Johanna: Even as it does not matter that I still don't know your name...
Anthony: Anthony!
Judge: Todd...
Beadle: Todd.
Johanna: Anthony...
Judge: Todd, eh?
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4,029 posts
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Post by Dawnstar on Jul 18, 2017 17:27:38 GMT
I love Howard Goodall's frequent use of counterpoint. My favourite instance out of those shows of his that I've seen is probably the Act 1 finale from The Kissing Dance but all the others (The Hired Man, A Winter's Tale, The Dreaming & Girlfriends) have beautiful examples too.
Another vote for Now/Soon/Later from ALNM. When they blend it's glorious, especially the moment when Frederik is singing "Now I still want and/or love you" while Anne & Heinrik are singing long notes. (Sorry, that's probably a terrible explanation, I'm no musician.)
I think most of my favourite operatic examples have already been mentioned (I would like the Rosenkavalier trio to be the last sound I head before death I love it so much) apart from the finale of Ariadne Auf Naxos where the nymphs provide beautiful counterpoint to Ariadne & Bacchus' love duet. Yes, I really love my Strauss!
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67 posts
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Post by orchestrator on Jul 18, 2017 19:14:57 GMT
I think my absolute favorite is "Kiss Me/Ladies in Their Sensitivities" from Sweeney Todd. It's rapturous, suspenseful, and features one of the cleverest uses of counterpoint I can think of: Johanna: Even as it does not matter that I still don't know your name... Anthony: Anthony! Judge: Todd... Beadle: Todd.
Johanna: Anthony...
Judge: Todd, eh?Is anyone else bothered at all by the story of the Beadle and the Judge at the start of the Quartet? The Beadle has persuaded the Judge to go to this fancy new barber in town very carefully not saying his name, the judge ends the dialogue with “Take me to him” and off they go (despite the trip making the Beadle late for his daughter’s birthday). Anthony and Johanna resume their naive barely-listening dialogue and then the Beadle kicks off the counterpoint duet with “The name is Tooooooooooooooood”. And as soon as he starts “Todd” the Judge joins in with “Todd” even though the Beadle hasn’t finished the name. I know. I should get out more. |
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Post by crabtree on Jul 18, 2017 21:20:40 GMT
Hallo and I'm loving this informative civilised discussion. as it happens I am putting together a concert based not so much on counterpoint but around Quartets, mainly from opera, but would love to include a G&S, a Lehar, A Sondheim, a Porter, a Coward, and a Kander and ebb - what are your favourite ones. Thanks so much.
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