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Post by sf on Jun 24, 2018 23:17:22 GMT
I'm sure someone here with a programme can post for the London Production. I believe it's about 14 plus conductor. For the Lincoln Center Production, it was 29 plus conductor Violin (5) Viola (3) Cello (2) Bass (1) Flute/Piccolo (1) Flute (1) Clarinet (2) Bass Clarinet (1) Oboe/English Horn (1) Bassoon (1) French Horn (3) Trumpet (3) Trombone (2) Tuba (1) Harp (1) Percussion (1)
If that's true - I mean, that the orchestra in London is half the size of the one they used on Broadway - then any interest I had in seeing the production just evaporated. At those prices, for this score, fourteen players isn't enough.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 6:04:34 GMT
If that's true - I mean, that the orchestra in London is half the size of the one they used on Broadway - then any interest I had in seeing the production just evaporated. At those prices, for this score, fourteen players isn't enough. It is though - it doesn't sound thin at all. You can't possibly know if it's enough or not unless you actually hear it! |
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 25, 2018 9:17:27 GMT
Well I fared a little better in the Rush Tickets this morning! Offered Row Q in Stalls and I must admit to thinking for a couple of seconds about releasing them and seeing what else I might be offered but wanting to see it outweighed the small chance of getting better seats so I went with them and very excited I am too!
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Post by Sam on Jun 25, 2018 10:30:46 GMT
Well I fared a little better in the Rush Tickets this morning! Offered Row Q in Stalls and I must admit to thinking for a couple of seconds about releasing them and seeing what else I might be offered but wanting to see it outweighed the small chance of getting better seats so I went with them and very excited I am too! I think you did the right thing. It seems to have quietened down quite a bit as tickets are still available now (11.30am), but they're further back in the stalls. |
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Post by sf on Jun 25, 2018 10:42:59 GMT
If that's true - I mean, that the orchestra in London is half the size of the one they used on Broadway - then any interest I had in seeing the production just evaporated. At those prices, for this score, fourteen players isn't enough. It is though - it doesn't sound thin at all. You can't possibly know if it's enough or not unless you actually hear it!
Yes, actually, I can. There is a big, big difference between the sound you get with 29 players in the pit and the sound you get with 14. A skilled orchestrator can close the gap a little, but only a little; you're still going to end up with either a tiny handful of violins trying to sound like a full string section - they don't, ever - or synthesised string pads. Producers depend on the fact that people aren't discerning enough to tell the difference, but the difference is easy to hear, particularly with a score like this one.
And really, if they can run it in the Vivian Beaumont with 29 players in the pit, there's no excuse for just fourteen in a theatre with 1100 more seats. That's just cheap.
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 25, 2018 11:18:55 GMT
Well I fared a little better in the Rush Tickets this morning! Offered Row Q in Stalls and I must admit to thinking for a couple of seconds about releasing them and seeing what else I might be offered but wanting to see it outweighed the small chance of getting better seats so I went with them and very excited I am too! I think you did the right thing. It seems to have quietened down quite a bit as tickets are still available now (11.30am), but they're further back in the stalls. Well that's good to know!! Thanks for posting!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 11:37:25 GMT
It is though - it doesn't sound thin at all. You can't possibly know if it's enough or not unless you actually hear it!
Yes, actually, I can. There is a big, big difference between the sound you get with 29 players in the pit and the sound you get with 14. A skilled orchestrator can close the gap a little, but only a little; you're still going to end up with either a tiny handful of violins trying to sound like a full string section - they don't, ever - or synthesised string pads. Producers depend on the fact that people aren't discerning enough to tell the difference, but the difference is easy to hear, particularly with a score like this one.
And really, if they can run it in the Vivian Beaumont with 29 players in the pit, there's no excuse for just fourteen in a theatre with 1100 more seats. That's just cheap.
My post was from my experience of seeing this production in the Palladium, which you haven't done, so I think in this regard I'm in a better position to judge what the score actually sounded like in the theatre than you, particularly given you appear to be unwilling to give it a chance purely based on numbers. I'm a musician, I know full well what the difference is, and I also know that what I heard on Friday night sitting in the Grand Circle of the Palladium sounded perfectly fine, and although 29 musicians would obviously have created a different sound, the 14 who were playing were more than adequate. If you don't want to give it a chance, that's your prerogative, but in my experience rather than hypothetical judgment there was no sound quality issue whatsoever. If you want to miss out for no reason other than because you assume there won't be enough musicians, that's up to you. |
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Post by sf on Jun 25, 2018 11:47:18 GMT
I'm a musician, I know full well what the difference is, and I also know that what I heard on Friday night sitting in the Grand Circle of the Palladium sounded perfectly fine, and although 29 musicians would obviously have created a different sound, the 14 who were playing were more than adequate.
But that's the point: at these prices, "more than adequate" isn't good enough. I've seen/heard enough musical revivals over the years that I know perfectly well what it'll sound like with 14 players in the pit. The revival at Curve a few years ago had fewer than that; at regional theatre prices, in a smaller house, I'm OK with it. To present the show in the Palladium, with premium seats costing up to £175, is just cheap. At those prices - not that I'd have paid £175, but everything other than the back third of the upper circle is at least £49 - I want the real deal, not a cut-down imitation of it. Producers get away with it because audiences and critics don't challenge them on it. We should, because cutting the orchestra back significantly alters the experience.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 11:53:54 GMT
I think they spent the money on Kelli's frocks to be honest. And baby oil for DJW. Oh, and the BLOOMIN' GREAT BIG SHIP!!!
I'm no musician but it did sound nice to me, certainly better than more than adequate. Not sure I would have necessarily known that there were only 14 people sat there fiddling with their instruments. Then again I was singing along with every song so that might have helped.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 13:26:12 GMT
Honestly, if I'm seeing the Lincoln Center production of The King And I directed by Bartlett Sher, then I am DEFINITELY okay with them spending the money on frocks rather than musicians. Sorry not sorry, but have you SEEN those frocks.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 13:49:18 GMT
The frocks are fabulous. They're so big I'm thinking of renting one as an Airbnb once Kelli has finished with them.
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Post by emj892 on Jun 25, 2018 14:04:44 GMT
Anybody able to post the list of orchestra players please? ![]() : Conductor & MD: Stephen Ridley Assistant MD & Keyboard: Malcolm Forbes-Peckham Violin 1: Ali Gordon Violin 2: Tom Bott Viola & 2nd Cover Conductor: Michael Keelan Cello: Dom Pecheur Double Bass: Rory Dempsey Harp: Hugh Webb Percussion: Dom Sales Flute & Piccolo: Helen Wilson Oboe & Cor Anglais: Ilid Jones Clarinet & Flute: Steve Pierce Bassoon: Alex Callanan French Horn 1: John Davy French Horn 2: Ruth O'Reilly Trumpet 1: John Barclay Trumpet 2: Freddie Bols Trombone: Phil Judge  ![]() |
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jun 25, 2018 14:15:42 GMT
At those prices I want to hear a large orchestra that or see the greedy producers fail
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Post by sf on Jun 25, 2018 14:40:28 GMT
...and OK, from the list posted it's more than 14. It's 17 plus the conductor, which is the same number Lincoln Center's 'South Pacific' used when it toured in this country (there were more musicians in London). That's presumably the minimum number of warm bodies needed to deliver the original orchestrations; to my ears, the orchestra at that 'South Pacific' sounded thin, which means this will too, because there's a certain sound that you simply cannot replicate with just two violins and one viola.
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Post by argon on Jun 25, 2018 14:45:19 GMT
Do we know when TAKAO OSAWA will be on for the King
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 15:21:58 GMT
I'm a musician, I know full well what the difference is, and I also know that what I heard on Friday night sitting in the Grand Circle of the Palladium sounded perfectly fine, and although 29 musicians would obviously have created a different sound, the 14 who were playing were more than adequate.
But that's the point: at these prices, "more than adequate" isn't good enough. I've seen/heard enough musical revivals over the years that I know perfectly well what it'll sound like with 14 players in the pit. The revival at Curve a few years ago had fewer than that; at regional theatre prices, in a smaller house, I'm OK with it. To present the show in the Palladium, with premium seats costing up to £175, is just cheap. At those prices - not that I'd have paid £175, but everything other than the back third of the upper circle is at least £49 - I want the real deal, not a cut-down imitation of it. Producers get away with it because audiences and critics don't challenge them on it. We should, because cutting the orchestra back significantly alters the experience.
I sat second row of the Grand Circle and paid only £15 for a very good view and sound - the deals and decent prices were there if you were organised enough, so your statement about prices is simply wrong. If you're expecting world-class musicians and a full orchestra, then you pretty much have to stick to concert versions of everything - that's just not how most theatrical production companies work anymore. Musical theatre is about so much more than that, so "more than adequate" really is more than sufficient in the wider context of the production as a whole, and I didn't feel short-changed in the slightest. I do think you're taking a very narrow view of this, but that's your prerogative. |
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Post by sf on Jun 25, 2018 15:47:05 GMT
But that's the point: at these prices, "more than adequate" isn't good enough. I've seen/heard enough musical revivals over the years that I know perfectly well what it'll sound like with 14 players in the pit. The revival at Curve a few years ago had fewer than that; at regional theatre prices, in a smaller house, I'm OK with it. To present the show in the Palladium, with premium seats costing up to £175, is just cheap. At those prices - not that I'd have paid £175, but everything other than the back third of the upper circle is at least £49 - I want the real deal, not a cut-down imitation of it. Producers get away with it because audiences and critics don't challenge them on it. We should, because cutting the orchestra back significantly alters the experience.
I sat second row of the Grand Circle and paid only £15 for a very good view and sound - the deals and decent prices were there if you were organised enough, so your statement about prices is simply wrong. If you're expecting world-class musicians and a full orchestra, then you pretty much have to stick to concert versions of everything - that's just not how most theatrical production companies work anymore. Musical theatre is about so much more than that, so "more than adequate" really is more than sufficient in the wider context of the production as a whole, and I didn't feel short-changed in the slightest. I do think you're taking a very narrow view of this, but that's your prerogative.
And if you're willing to accept producers passing off cut-down orchestras as the real thing while simultaneously pushing ticket prices up and up and up at way more than the rate of inflation, that in turn is your choice.
I'm perfectly happy to go to the Southwark Playhouse and hear 'Allegro' with a handful of musicians. I'm fine with a band of seven or eight for 'Guys and Dolls' at the Royal Exchange. That's an acceptable compromise in some venues - but NOT at the Palladium, and not at those prices. For £15, maybe - but the cheapest seats on the website right now are double that, and that's only for the back three rows of the upper circle.
To be fair, with 17 musicians in the pit it'll sound better than, for example, the anaemic orchestra at 'An American in Paris' at the Dominion last year, which I didn't know about when I bought the ticket. The Broadway orchestrations for that show - for about 18 musicians - are already undernourished; in the Dominion, for that music, 13 musicians was nowhere near enough. 17 musicians for 'The King and I' won't be as bad - but it also won't be what it should be. As I said somewhere else, there's a sound you just can't recreate when you only have two violins and one viola, and the score of 'The King and I' is full of it.
But anyway, given that the show's racial politics, these days, are sufficiently squirm-inducing that my main reason for going would be to hear a live performance of the music, the fact that they're using a cut-down orchestra means I'll pass. The only reason producers routinely use smaller orchestras these days is because they've formed the impression punters are too dumb to know the difference. I know the difference, and where possible I spend my money accordingly.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 18:45:33 GMT
The huge orchestra at Lincoln Center was simply glorious for this show. And when the stage pulled back and revealed them the audience cheered.
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Post by Boob on Jun 25, 2018 18:59:26 GMT
Does anyone happen to know how many musicians were in the pit for the last King & I revival at the Palladium? I seem to remember it was in the early 20s and sounded divine.
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Post by bobbybaby on Jun 25, 2018 20:45:13 GMT
I sat second row of the Grand Circle and paid only £15 for a very good view and sound - the deals and decent prices were there if you were organised enough, so your statement about prices is simply wrong. If you're expecting world-class musicians and a full orchestra, then you pretty much have to stick to concert versions of everything - that's just not how most theatrical production companies work anymore. Musical theatre is about so much more than that, so "more than adequate" really is more than sufficient in the wider context of the production as a whole, and I didn't feel short-changed in the slightest. I do think you're taking a very narrow view of this, but that's your prerogative.
And if you're willing to accept producers passing off cut-down orchestras as the real thing while simultaneously pushing ticket prices up and up and up at way more than the rate of inflation, that in turn is your choice.
I'm perfectly happy to go to the Southwark Playhouse and hear 'Allegro' with a handful of musicians. I'm fine with a band of seven or eight for 'Guys and Dolls' at the Royal Exchange. That's an acceptable compromise in some venues - but NOT at the Palladium, and not at those prices. For £15, maybe - but the cheapest seats on the website right now are double that, and that's only for the back three rows of the upper circle.
To be fair, with 17 musicians in the pit it'll sound better than, for example, the anaemic orchestra at 'An American in Paris' at the Dominion last year, which I didn't know about when I bought the ticket. The Broadway orchestrations for that show - for about 18 musicians - are already undernourished; in the Dominion, for that music, 13 musicians was nowhere near enough. 17 musicians for 'The King and I' won't be as bad - but it also won't be what it should be. As I said somewhere else, there's a sound you just can't recreate when you only have two violins and one viola, and the score of 'The King and I' is full of it.
But anyway, given that the show's racial politics, these days, are sufficiently squirm-inducing that my main reason for going would be to hear a live performance of the music, the fact that they're using a cut-down orchestra means I'll pass. The only reason producers routinely use smaller orchestras these days is because they've formed the impression punters are too dumb to know the difference. I know the difference, and where possible I spend my money accordingly.
I have to say I'm with sf on this one. The Palladium is one of the worlds premiere theatres. Radio City Music Hall's the only other i can think of in comparison. For £175 I'd expect the John Wilson Orchestra in the pit (especially moustachioed guy on the harp) and want not only a list of Kelli's dresses but a swatch of each material. A vial of DJW's pectoral enhancement cream (Ryan - I'll give you my sample ) and at least a free pass to the Hampton court flower show to see the orchids. I saw Bartlett Sher's South Pacific on tour and would be so disappointed if this is what gets accepted into the Palladium paying well over top dollar. I am of course going but won't pay anywhere near £175. |
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Post by Being Alive on Jun 26, 2018 0:16:08 GMT
Kelli has. holiday date I just saw on Twitter - pretty sure it was the 27th of August
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 26, 2018 11:06:35 GMT
Oh my lord this was GLORIOUS!! The King & I was possibly the first musical I ever saw when my Dad took me to the 2000 West End revival at the Palladium, however being 6 at the time I remember next to nothing about it, so being back at the Palladium and seeing the show again was a very emotional experience! Added to the fact that this is really the first Golden Age R&H musical I've ever seen produced on this scale, it was an evening I won't forget for a long time.
Firstly, it look absolutely beautiful. Once the ship leaves, it's a relatively simply set but it looks incredible, is used well and is just so damn classy. Also sounded wonderful, if not a little quiet, but that could've been due to the Dress Circle overhang dampening the original sound. Having said that, the seats were amazing. Row Q 43, 44 from TodayTix rush and for £25 I honestly could not have asked for better.
Ken Watanabe was sensational as the King. Full or charisma and his comic timing was second to none. What he achieved with his performance, with English being far from his first language, was astounding. And the audience LOVED him. And I actually didn't have as much of a problem with his pronunciations as I thought I might!
In supporting roles, Naoko Mori is indeed a revelation as Lady Thiang and Na-Young Jeon sounded sensational as Tuptim. Only disappointment for me was Dean John Wilson as Lun Tha. Nothing horribly wrong, but he just over-sang everything (as usual) and I didn't think his acting was anything decent either. But nothing to distract from the beauty of everything else!
And then there's Kelli O'Hara. Kelli. O. Hara. What is there to say? Simply divine. She radiates absolute beauty with a voice blessed from the angels. When she first sang and I was there, hearing Kelli O'Hara sing live in front of me, I got goosebumps on my goosebumps and tears in my eyes. In fact I felt that every time she opened her mouth to sing. It's just something else and I'm very glad she is here on Earth to bless us mere mortals! And with that glorious voice, it's so easy to forget and take for granted that she is also a superb first-rate actor. Her accent is wonderful and never falters and her acting and conviction and fire and feistiness that makes her Anna so brilliant is all there in abundance and as early as it is, I agree that the Olivier statue should be hers next year.
Just a wonderful evening, the 3 hours absolutely flew by. Lots of latecomers in the first half an hour - they obviously thought it began at 7.30pm - but hopefully that'll calm down once word spreads that it's 7pm. Audience also clearly loved it. Was packed with a massive standing ovation at the end. There was a feeling of excitement there, people were so happy to be seeing The King and I and I swear to God you could hear people smiling. Especially with the famous lines (I don't remember the script having so much humour?! Maybe it's this production!) and songs, you could hear everyone breathing a sigh of nostalgia. Shall We Dance especially received prolonged applause and cheering - that really was a highlight of the whole show.
Do go and see it if you can and keep persisting with Rush Tickets on TodayTix - can't recommend them enough!!
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Post by Mr Snow on Jun 26, 2018 11:33:58 GMT
and I swear to God you could hear people smiling.  |
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Post by Oleanna on Jun 26, 2018 11:56:53 GMT
Anybody able to post the list of orchestra players please? ![]() : Conductor & MD: Stephen Ridley Assistant MD & Keyboard: Malcolm Forbes-Peckham Violin 1: Ali Gordon Violin 2: Tom Bott Viola & 2nd Cover Conductor: Michael Keelan Cello: Dom Pecheur Double Bass: Rory Dempsey Harp: Hugh Webb Percussion: Dom Sales Flute & Piccolo: Helen Wilson Oboe & Cor Anglais: Ilid Jones Clarinet & Flute: Steve Pierce Bassoon: Alex Callanan French Horn 1: John Davy French Horn 2: Ruth O'Reilly Trumpet 1: John Barclay Trumpet 2: Freddie Bols Trombone: Phil Judge ![]() A keyboard...!? A keyboard!? A keyboard has no place in this pit. So from Broadway to the West End, we’ve gone from 30 incl. conductor to 18 incl. conductor, losing 12 players (including rarer instruments integral to the sound world of this era - i.e Tuba). That’s basically each section halved. To those who say it doesn’t matter, would you be saying the same if the number of ensemble were halved? Or the costumes? Or the size of the ship? Quite apart from servicing the score to its full potential, and the intentions of the composer, why WOULDN’T you want the same for your money that audiences got on Broadway? What makes you willing to compromise? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2018 13:01:12 GMT
Quite apart from servicing the score to its full potential, and the intentions of the composer, why WOULDN’T you want the same for your money that audiences got on Broadway? What makes you willing to compromise? Because, as I've already said several times, TO ME it sounded fine and I didn't feel short-changed in the slightest by any aspect of the production. My opinion, which I shouldn't have to justify. Nothing to do with other productions of this show. And anyway, I paid a hell of a lot less than I would have done on Broadway. Not all of us have the time or the money to go to New York to see specific productions... |
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