3,827 posts
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Post by anthony40 on Jun 10, 2017 15:52:44 GMT
You know, I don't really follow politics but ever since the confirmation of Brexit, from an internatioal point of view, this is embarrassing!
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2,706 posts
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Jun 10, 2017 15:53:03 GMT
Actually, I had no idea the area had changed quite much... Is it the area that has changed? It seems to me more that the voting patterns of the classes has changed, with the urban upper-middle class now more likely to vote Laobour while the working class are more likely to vote Conservative than in the past. Figures support that, B and C1 shifting to labour, C2 and D to conservative. The former lay blame on poor government and the economy whilst the latter blame elites and immigrants taking their jobs. Hence rundown Northern areas swung conservative whilst all across the south and major urban areas swung to labour.
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4,631 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 10, 2017 16:07:20 GMT
But Theresa May has always believed she is free to do all the Brexit negotiations without reference to the UK Parliament, so she can only be thwarted in that by either a vote of no confidence or a Tory Party leadership coup. I agree that all the UK Parliament legislation will be chaotic, but she doesn't have any plans for much Parliamentary business anyway. It's all about doing Brexit her way without consulting anyone, or at least attempting to do that before being shafted by the EU. She thought a submarine tactic, that worked in the referendum so well, would work in the election, except she disappeared without a trace do never reemergence. How can you govern with a majority of 2? How do you organise an effective whip to enact law, the backbenchers now smell blood - but no one will stab Theresa May in the back, they will stab her fatally in the front just like Thatcher. I Have a feeling they won't be teaching Brexit in these new Grammar Schools in 10 years time. Though I'm not a citizen here and cannot vote I'm vicariously thrilled that my district, Kensington, went for Labour after 3 recounts - by 20 votes! See, not everyone's posh in Kensington. Kensington once the safest Tory seat in the whole country. Nick Timothy has a very Russian appearance with that beard. I wonder if he was a Russian mole, diligently working away to destabilise the UK? Fiona, Nick and the Great Comets of 2017.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 16:31:13 GMT
The young people
Who voted for labour
Because they think they are going to get free school meals
And not pay tuition fees
Will have found something else to engage in
Soon
They just follow the trend
These policies are small distractions
Carrots on a stick
Sweets
And have no actual beneficial economic impact for the country
I would also be interested to know
How labour plan to continue their policies in the long term
Over decades
As the current youth generation will have
No savings
No property
No assets
When they are older
Who will labour steal from then?
Not thought out
You can only squeeze the middle classes so much
Yet not one government has dared challenge society
To a different way of thinking
Save not spend
Buy not rent
Have fewer children perhaps
Abuse the NHS a little less
But people refuse to take any personal blame for issues
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 16:43:39 GMT
Our last labour government
Told us one of the biggest lies ever
And many people died
As a result
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Post by Honoured Guest on Jun 10, 2017 16:50:39 GMT
That would shrink the economy, leading to lower tax revenues and more unemployment so increased public spending.
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51 posts
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Post by easilypleased on Jun 10, 2017 16:59:42 GMT
Someone please correct me if I have the details wrong, but Labour proposed an additional 5& income tax on earnings above the first £80,000 per year. That's a marginal increase for the 5% of taxpayers who can most easily afford it. Someone who earns £150k a year would pay £4850 a year more in tax. But your presumption is that such people can easily afford it because they have lots of spare income and that's often not the case. Big mortgage, school fees (to have 20% VAT added), etc etc - over £400 a month is a lot and amounts to a couple of theatre visits for 2. These people are your premium seat theatre goers who probably subsidise a lot of the rest. If they have to cut back, then theatre trips will be among the first things to go. They aren't going to take their kids out of school or move house so they can carry on going to the theatre. It can only have a negative impact. Not saying it's right or wrong, or condoning people's lifestyles, just saying.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 17:02:10 GMT
That would shrink the economy, leading to lower tax revenues and more unemployment so increased public spending. Fine Spend money you have earned As opposed to borrowed or on credit then In any case People are sick of austerity Yet the only way to resolve it Is increase their salary And then take more tax off them In any case public sector workers And PAYE workers are always shat on By our system And suffer the most They are easy and rich pickings to take money from Those at the top manipulate their wealth at will And get away with all sorts of tricks Corruption continues unchecked and unchallenged
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4,631 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 10, 2017 17:24:58 GMT
Someone please correct me if I have the details wrong, but Labour proposed an additional 5& income tax on earnings above the first £80,000 per year. That's a marginal increase for the 5% of taxpayers who can most easily afford it. Someone who earns £150k a year would pay £4850 a year more in tax. But your presumption is that such people can easily afford it because they have lots of spare income and that's often not the case. Big mortgage, school fees (to have 20% VAT added), etc etc - over £400 a month is a lot and amounts to a couple of theatre visits for 2. These people are your premium seat theatre goers who probably subsidise a lot of the rest. If they have to cut back, then theatre trips will be among the first things to go. They aren't going to take their kids out of school or move house so they can carry on going to the theatre. It can only have a negative impact. Not saying it's right or wrong, or condoning people's lifestyles, just saying. Thought the biggest theatre goers don't actually speak English.
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2,452 posts
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 10, 2017 19:34:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 21:29:28 GMT
Amazing Can't wait Serves all those people voting In Protest Thinking they are "tactical" Damn well right
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 22:02:44 GMT
Amazing Can't wait Serves all those people voting In Protest Thinking they are "tactical" Damn well right It's the only thing about this whole debacle that's made me even vaguely smile. Can't help but agree with Alan Johnson's comment on HIGNFY: isn't it time to get rid of the British public? They keep making the wrong decisions! ;-)
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894 posts
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Post by vdcni on Jun 10, 2017 22:14:11 GMT
Amazing Can't wait Serves all those people voting In Protest Thinking they are "tactical" Damn well right Huh? So the people who tried to vote the Tories out are to blame for them cozying up to a load of reactionary bigots and risking the Northern Ireland peace process!? Nope the Tories and them alone are to blame for this whole mess.
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894 posts
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Post by vdcni on Jun 10, 2017 22:17:12 GMT
Amazing Can't wait Serves all those people voting In Protest Thinking they are "tactical" Damn well right It's the only thing about this whole debacle that's made me even vaguely smile. Can't help but agree with Alan Johnson's comment on HIGNFY: isn't it time to get rid of the British public? They keep making the wrong decisions! ;-) I'm glad you find it amusing that people who will quite happily put women on trial for having an abortion now hold the balance of power in the government. And you blame voters for it rather than the Tories who have created this mess.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 22:41:09 GMT
It's the only thing about this whole debacle that's made me even vaguely smile. Can't help but agree with Alan Johnson's comment on HIGNFY: isn't it time to get rid of the British public? They keep making the wrong decisions! ;-) I'm glad you find it amusing that people who will quite happily put women on trial for having an abortion now hold the balance of power in the government. And you blame voters for it rather than the Tories who have created this mess. A lot of people voted for the current brand of Labour: an antisemitic, Communist, bullying rabble, while dressing it up to the rest of us as progressive and saintly. If you vote that way, I'm afraid I'm a little short on sympathy when things don't go as planned. And I'm not sure those people have put themselves in any position to criticise what you absolutely correctly point out are the unpleasant beliefs of others. That's my point.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2017 22:47:07 GMT
Amazing Can't wait Serves all those people voting In Protest Thinking they are "tactical" Damn well right Huh? So the people who tried to vote the Tories out are to blame for them cozying up to a load of reactionary bigots and risking the Northern Ireland peace process!? Nope the Tories and them alone are to blame for this whole mess. Well, partly, yes. I love how the Tories get blamed for giving people choice. And there was me thinking we live in a democracy... Out of interest, did you have a problem with Corbyn cozying up to Sinn Fein? Hey ho, keep the faith, Labour voters! At this rate, we may yet see him in No 10! And then all those who blame the Tories for our ills will have to admit, as the poor country slides further down the pan, that this is squarely on them.
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894 posts
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Post by vdcni on Jun 10, 2017 22:49:23 GMT
Communist, are you joking, is this the 1950's again.
Labour may have some dodgy people within its ranks, though no worse than the Tories, and should have taken a firmer stand against them but its manifesto and policies contain none of these things which you certainly can't say about the DUP.
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894 posts
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Post by vdcni on Jun 10, 2017 22:53:08 GMT
Huh? So the people who tried to vote the Tories out are to blame for them cozying up to a load of reactionary bigots and risking the Northern Ireland peace process!? Nope the Tories and them alone are to blame for this whole mess. Well, partly, yes. I love how the Tories get blamed for giving people choice. And there was me thinking we live in a democracy... Out of interest, did you have a problem with Corbyn cozying up to Sinn Fein? Hey ho, keep the faith, Labour voters! At this rate, we may yet see him in No 10! And then all those who blame the Tories for our ills will have to admit, as the poor country slides further down the pan, that this is squarely on them. The Tories have chosen to work with the DUP to keep in power despite their policies and the risk to the peace process. Voters making individual decisions at a constituency level can't be blamed. No voter seriously went out with the intention of creating a hung parliament.
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894 posts
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Post by vdcni on Jun 10, 2017 22:55:54 GMT
And Theresa May didn't call an election to give people choice she did it to increase her majority and strengthen the Tories grip on power. In her arrogance she didn't even think she had to campaign properly or expose her policy to scrutiny.
It was her fault for taking the electorate for granted.
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2,706 posts
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Jun 10, 2017 22:56:59 GMT
There is no way that labour can be called communist, they don't wish to replace capitalism for a start. Socialist, yes (and that wasn't true of the Blair years where they were more like social democrats). I think you had to be around in the sixties/seventies to know what communism is really like, to see the day to day activities of the Soviet Union, East Germany et al. It's as bad as calling conservatives fascists.
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1,093 posts
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Jun 10, 2017 23:38:41 GMT
Amazing Can't wait Serves all those people voting In Protest Thinking they are "tactical" Damn well right Yes, people who attempt to exercise democracy should definitely be punished for voting the 'wrong' way by having their reproductive rights taken away unelected fringe party, and a Britain run by religious extremist creationists is something we should all be super duper excited about! (I also recommend watching the the DUP's documentary-style party political broadcast which was so good it's being rebroadcast on the BBC1 under the new title of "The Handmaid's Tale".)
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4,631 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Jun 11, 2017 0:04:04 GMT
Huh? So the people who tried to vote the Tories out are to blame for them cozying up to a load of reactionary bigots and risking the Northern Ireland peace process!? Nope the Tories and them alone are to blame for this whole mess. Well, partly, yes. I love how the Tories get blamed for giving people choice. And there was me thinking we live in a democracy... Out of interest, did you have a problem with Corbyn cozying up to Sinn Fein? Hey ho, keep the faith, Labour voters! At this rate, we may yet see him in No 10! And then all those who blame the Tories for our ills will have to admit, as the poor country slides further down the pan, that this is squarely on them. The Labour Party is now united and will rally behind Corbyn, his detractors have been magnanimous and apologised and credited him on running a stellar election campaign. Meanwhile the membership base has not been so big for years, with record young people now engaged in politics. How Corbyn organised a manifesto and overturned a 20 point lead is simply breathtaking. His once detractors will form part of a shadow cabinet, after 'New Labour' became toxic after the Iraq War and the banking meltdown, we can now take pause and unite the best of New Labour and the best of Traditional Labour to form a solid electable Labour Party. That will become a force in British politics. The Conservatives and their 'Coalition of Chaos', will not last and Labour will be the insurgents that will win the next election, it will be an outright win in a year or so and will deliever socialism for the 21st century, that will be fair to all that pays their fair share on taxes.
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4,799 posts
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Post by The Matthew on Jun 11, 2017 7:33:04 GMT
I find it disturbing that supporters of the Conservatives keep trying to invalidate the result: people who voted Labour were misled by Corbyn, young people were tricked into voting by promises about tuition fees, it was just a protest vote, the constituency boundaries are wrong. Not: our policies don't reflect the will of the country. Not: perhaps we should try listening instead of commanding. Not: we're driving our supporters away. Not: people know what they want and what they want isn't what we're giving them.
It's always someone else's fault. I'd have more respect for the Conservatives if I was seeing a bit more "Hey, perhaps the reason a smaller proportion of the country likes us than they did two years ago is down to us". For me, the reason I'm against the Conservative Party right now is nothing to do with Labour. It's entirely down to the fact that for the past year we've had a government that has acted as though the job of parliament (and of the country as a whole) is to shut up and do what it's told.
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Post by Honoured Guest on Jun 11, 2017 8:18:58 GMT
Out of interest, did you have a problem with Corbyn cozying up to Sinn Fein? Dialogue with all political parties led to the political peace process.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 8:20:32 GMT
And yet this is so similar to what I hear from my left-wing young friends; honestly. "We elect MPs to make these decisions, we shouldn't be making them ourselves." No, I couldn't believe it either.
I studied German and Russian to degree level, and lived in the former East Germany not long after the wall came down. I know how Communism and socialism is done, and how repressive it is. I see some of its tricks alive and well in Putin's Russia today. I see Labour appropriating some of them, and being allowed to get away with it by unquestioning youth. (Who oddly enough are happy to question Tory decisions and opinions. All hail the Dear Leader!)
The SWP, now merrily present at Labour demos and speeches, aligned with the Communist party and others to form the Stop the War coalition. Former Chair of this Coalition? All hail the Dear Leader!
One of Corbyn's key advisers during this election is someone who, until a year ago, was a member of the Communist party. He quit his 40 year membership there to join Labour...but only after Corbyn became leader. Tom Watson has pointed to the infiltration of Momentum by some extremely undesirable elements. Momentum; key in galvanising the youth vote. Those who are, as you point out, too young to remember anything of Communism and I daresay in some cases any of the groups who terrorised Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland and the mainland. Who are therefore happy to accept Corbyn's rather revised version of what exactly his motives were when he met with Sinn Fein historically. All hail the Dear Leader!
Some Labour supporters routinely address each other as 'comrade' for heaven's sake.
You may not consider this lot Communist. Fair enough. Personally, I say the connections are murky, and draping them in an acceptable cloak to pull in impressionable, idealistic young people makes them exceedingly more dangerous.
In any case: sigh. My original post was merely intended to point out the irony of people voting tactically for a progressive alliance to stick it to the Tories, and ending up with the Tories and something far worse. (For now - who knows what the coming days and months will bring? Soon every conversation we have with each other may begin and end with 'comrade'!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 8:29:57 GMT
Out of interest, did you have a problem with Corbyn cozying up to Sinn Fein? Dialogue with all political parties led to the political peace process. And that's a rather convenient umbrella for him to shelter under, isn't it? But dig a little deeper and understand the backdrop against which he was having these meetings. Look at the sort of things that were being written at the time in a publication of which Corbyn sat on the editorial board (though he seems now to have conveniently forgotten much of what was published while he was there). Seeking peace does not appear to have been top of the list of aims at that point. Sticking it to the Establishment, however... And never mind the cost to the victims of the violence, or their loved ones, eh? We will all have a different take on this. It's just worth pointing out that many of those who are making such a fuss about the Tories aligning with a party they claim supported terrorist violence, are probably the same ones who have no such issue with their Dear Leader aligning himself with Sinn Fein at the height of the IRA's bombing campaigns. Again: somewhat ironic, wouldn't you say?
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894 posts
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Post by vdcni on Jun 11, 2017 8:34:16 GMT
And yet this is so similar to what I hear from my left-wing young friends; honestly. "We elect MPs to make these decisions, we shouldn't be making them ourselves." No, I couldn't believe it either. I studied German and Russian to degree level, and lived in the former East Germany not long after the wall came down. I know how Communism and socialism is done, and how repressive it is. I see some of its tricks alive and well in Putin's Russia today. I see Labour appropriating some of them, and being allowed to get away with it by unquestioning youth. (Who oddly enough are happy to question Tory decisions and opinions. All hail the Dear Leader!) The SWP, now merrily present at Labour demos and speeches, aligned with the Communist party and others to form the Stop the War coalition. Former Chair of this Coalition? All hail the Dear Leader! One of Corbyn's key advisers during this election is someone who, until a year ago, was a member of the Communist party. He quit his 40 year membership there to join Labour...but only after Corbyn became leader. Tom Watson has pointed to the infiltration of Momentum by some extremely undesirable elements. Momentum; key in galvanising the youth vote. Those who are, as you point out, too young to remember anything of Communism and I daresay in some cases any of the groups who terrorised Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland and the mainland. Who are therefore happy to accept Corbyn's rather revised version of what exactly his motives were when he met with Sinn Fein historically. All hail the Dear Leader! Some Labour supporters routinely address each other as 'comrade' for heaven's sake. You may not consider this lot Communist. Fair enough. Personally, I say the connections are murky, and draping them in an acceptable cloak to pull in impressionable, idealistic young people makes them exceedingly more dangerous. In any case: sigh. My original post was merely intended to point out the irony of people voting tactically for a progressive alliance to stick it to the Tories, and ending up with the Tories and something far worse. (For now - who knows what the coming days and months will bring? Soon every conversation we have with each other may begin and end with 'comrade'!) Then you have very strange left wing young friends if they actually exist. I'm no fan of Corbyn but he ran on a moderate left platform.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 8:35:05 GMT
In any case: sigh. My original post was merely intended to point out the irony of people voting tactically for a progressive alliance to stick it to the Tories, and ending up with the Tories and something far worse. Yes and you were finding joy in it. It should be disturbing to anyone that democracy apparently means people getting the opposite of what they vote for. It's the same people that make an example of young people for not voting that now laugh at them when they do vote and are punished for it.
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894 posts
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Post by vdcni on Jun 11, 2017 8:38:11 GMT
Dialogue with all political parties led to the political peace process. And that's a rather convenient umbrella for him to shelter under, isn't it? But dig a little deeper and understand the backdrop against which he was having these meetings. Look at the sort of things that were being written at the time in a publication of which Corbyn sat on the editorial board (though he seems now to have conveniently forgotten much of what was published while he was there). Seeking peace does not appear to have been top of the list of aims at that point. Sticking it to the Establishment, however... And never mind the cost to the victims of the violence, or their loved ones, eh? We will all have a different take on this. It's just worth pointing out that many of those who are making such a fuss about the Tories aligning with a party they claim supported terrorist violence, are probably the same ones who have no such issue with their Dear Leader aligning himself with Sinn Fein at the height of the IRA's bombing campaigns. Again: somewhat ironic, wouldn't you say? And the same in reverse, where are the right wing tabloids attacking May for aligning with the DUP the way they attacked Corbyn? I couldn't care less about the DUP's connections to terrorism my objection is to their policies and that it prevents the British government from being neutral the way they agreed to be in the Good Friday Agreement. The DUP being astonishingly corrupt doesn't help matters either.
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Post by Honoured Guest on Jun 11, 2017 8:45:01 GMT
And never mind the cost to the victims of the violence, or their loved ones, eh? There was no support of terrorism. The purpose of dialogue is to move towards a peace process where terrorism doesn't continue. You're just parroting the untruthful smears of Michael Fallon and the Daily Mail, etc.
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