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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 22:27:14 GMT
I don't think most people read that much into it to be honest Daniel. I certainly hope not anyway. Oh don't worry love, that is just my own feeling. I don't feel like I have been portrayed as the positive person I am anyway on here. It is the way I word things, I struggle with describing my thoughts etc anyway both online and in person. It's my fault.  Not at all. You come across as the most positive person on here to me and I admire that. It is not you I have an issue with, it is the general tone and feeling in this thread that nothing even slightly negative can be said about this performer, who has chosen a career which puts her skills up for public judgement. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 23:28:58 GMT
Singing ability and interpretation are not two discrete concepts. It's perfectly possible for a good singer to sing within themselves if that's what they think a particular song requires. They're never going to give the top end of their ability all the time because their voice would be wrecked if they did. I'm not saying Sheridan is a singing superstar, we all know she's not in the top league of musical theatre singers on vocals alone, but it's simply not correct to assume that every note she sings is at the top of her ability and that's it. It's more complicated than that and it is inextricably linked to the choices she has made in how to portray the character. That's all I'm going to say on the subject because we'll just be going around in circles otherwise - clearly we both have very different concepts of what makes a musical theatre performance, or in fact any musical performance at all, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I know you're not commenting again but I wanted to respond to your post, specifically the comment "It's perfectly possible for a good singer to sing within themselves if that's what they think a particular song requires" I'm intrigued what you mean by this? Do you mean she's singing the correct notes in her head? Also "it's simply not correct to assume that every note she sings is at the top of her ability and that's it. It's more complicated than that and it is inextricably linked to the choices she has made in how to portray the character." This comment literally made me LOL however I do admire your unwavering support of Sheridan in your opinion that her half-assing some songs/notes is a legitimate acting choice. That is all. 😊 If you're going to be insulting then of course I'm going to reply. I'm not an unwavering Sheridan supporter, if you actually bother to read my posts carefully enough I've said many times that it's pretty clear she's not a great singer. But she's never claimed to be, so I find it pretty ridiculous that people are expecting her to be. And if you've seen her performance then you'll know that she plays the character in a way that emphasises how Fanny is making her living and getting her adulation from being funny (hence the title of the show, funnily enough), not from her singing prowess. That interpretation doesn't require a big singer or a lot of belting. It's not a question of whether you like her interpretation or not, that's a whole separate thing. It's simply a question of understanding that the choices she has made for her performance as a whole contribute to how she's chosen to sing it (after all, there are times when she goes for the bigger note and strains it, but the choice was clearly to go for it and she just couldn't manage it), rather than viewing singing in isolation, which never works in musical theatre. And by singing "within themselves" I meant not giving it 100% of what their voice is capable of on every single note - sometimes a song is more intimate or mournful and doesn't require a huge belt. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 23:36:18 GMT
Oh don't worry love, that is just my own feeling. I don't feel like I have been portrayed as the positive person I am anyway on here. It is the way I word things, I struggle with describing my thoughts etc anyway both online and in person. It's my fault. Not at all. You come across as the most positive person on here to me and I admire that. It is not you I have an issue with, it is the general tone and feeling in this thread that nothing even slightly negative can be said about this performer, who has chosen a career which puts her skills up for public judgement. If you're talking about me, then you might as well just address me directly. But before you do, please take the trouble to read my posts carefully enough - I'm not a diehard Sheridan fan, I'm making a broader point about the relationship between singing and other aspects of musical theatre, Sheridan just happens to be the example because she's the topical "star" at the minute. No one has actually asked me what I thought of her singing, and I only ever commented on her performance as a whole when I posted my own thoughts (briefly) after seeing it last week. I actually think she didn't sound particularly great in parts, but I can see how it works with how she acted the role, and why the producers picked her for it as a result. I took exception to the insinuation that singing was the only important thing in musical theatre, which I don't believe is true. I said I wasn't commenting any more because I didn't want the thread to turn into a battleground again. My intention was only to dig a little deeper into what actually constitutes a performance rather than a vocal alone, but I fear all I've done is offend, so I'll leave this thread alone. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 23:39:22 GMT
Not at all. You come across as the most positive person on here to me and I admire that. It is not you I have an issue with, it is the general tone and feeling in this thread that nothing even slightly negative can be said about this performer, who has chosen a career which puts her skills up for public judgement. If you're talking about me, then you might as well just address me directly. But before you do, please take the trouble to read my posts carefully enough - I'm not a diehard Sheridan fan, I'm making a broader point about the relationship between singing and other aspects of musical theatre, Sheridan just happens to be the example because she's the topical "star" at the minute. No one has actually asked me what I thought of her singing, and I only ever commented on her performance as a whole when I posted my own thoughts (briefly) after seeing it last week. I actually think she didn't sound particularly great in parts, but I can see how it works with how she acted the role, and why the producers picked her for it as a result. I took exception to the insinuation that singing was the only important thing in musical theatre, which I don't believe is true. I said I wasn't commenting any more because I didn't want the thread to turn into a battleground again. My intention was only to dig a little deeper into what actually constitutes a performance rather than a vocal alone, but I fear all I've done is offend, so I'll leave this thread alone. No...I said right there in the post that you quoted that I'm talking about the general tone and feeling in the thread. If you were to go back through this thread you would see that I've raised this view a few times when I feel that people have attempted to silence others who say negative things about Sheridan. If I was addressing you, I would have quoted you. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 1:02:45 GMT
People have a perfect right to carry on posting something repetitive, just as anyone else has a perfect right to post something repetitive pointing out that people are posting something repetitive!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 1:20:08 GMT
People have a perfect right to carry on posting something repetitive, just as anyone else has a perfect right to post something repetitive pointing out that people are posting something repetitive! And just as anyone has a right to post something repetitive about someone posting something repetitive about people being repetitive.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 1:25:21 GMT
I feel like this thead is turning into an episode of friends.
"They don't know we know they know we know"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 1:27:53 GMT
I feel like this thead is turning into an episode of friends. "They don't know we know they know we know" Was genuinely thinking the exact same! |
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Post by mistressjojo on Aug 18, 2016 3:29:52 GMT
I feel like this thead is turning into an episode of friends. "They don't know we know they know we know" Was genuinely thinking the exact same! So is this the bit now where Phoebe shows one of them her bra? |
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Post by talkstageytome on Aug 18, 2016 6:00:10 GMT
The same should be true of Fanny - the role needs (imo) an actress who can act, but it needs an actress who can vocally make us believe Fanny is the greatest star - because in the context of the play, the only thing Fanny can truly rely on and believe in is her talent. I always thought that she really became a star because of her comedic ability and the fact that she stood out from the crowd. When I saw this in December I had literally just finished studying variety performances as a module at uni, and so I had seen countless videos of Fanny Brice in that time. I even wrote a whole essay about her and her contemporaries. To me it seemed like Sheridan was doing a fabulous job as Fanny. She was (is) totally different to Barbra, but both were great in their own ways, Sheridan absolutely seemed to be basing her performance off Fanny Brice, unlike Barbra. However... I bought the new CD and was way less impressed. Not 100% because of Sheridan (does anyone else think the whole album sounds a bit hollow, a bit underwhelming? Not at all like that in the theatre.) but I was just longing for Barbra's soaring effortless vocals. Smith sounded a bit too meek for me personally. This probably all boils down to the fact that when I saw the show live it was the real Fanny Brice whose performance I was so familiar with, while now 8 months later I'm obviously more familiar overall with Barbra and the movie soundtrack. Interesting. I am a fan of Sheridan Smith, and really loved her on the Legally Blonde cast album, so I guess it must be the performance itself I'm not totally in love with. I thought Darrius sounded gorgeous on this new album though. Didn't notice him so much when I saw the show live. Oh, and I also agree that change in venue probably didn't help. In the Menier the meekness was enhanced by the intimacy of the space, whereas on the Savoy stage I imagine it has gotten a bit lost. But then, I've not personally seen the show since it transferred and she's still getting brilliant responses from a lot of audience members. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 18, 2016 6:42:05 GMT
The amount of twisting and turning people are doing to accommodate Sheridan's perceived inadequacies in this role are really quite astonishing. Imagine the conversation at Sonia Friedman's offices: "I had an idea. Let's do Funny Girl and hey, let's get Sheridan Smith!" "Wow... Ok... But can she sing the part?" "Doesn't need to! It's NOT Barbra, it's Fanny right? It's all about how she's a comedian not a singer" "But what about My Man?" "Drop it" "But wasn't it Fanny's signature song, I mean in real life?" "Was it? Umm no idea. Anyway no-one knows that, they think it's Barbra's song" "Ok well, if you're sure not singing it that well will work, as an acting choice, I'll get onto her people" "Great! Hey let's make an album out of her not singing it that well too...!" I don't really think so  |
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Post by talkstageytome on Aug 18, 2016 6:55:18 GMT
But the Fanny Brice version of My Man is totally different and much more restrained than the Barbra movie version.
I do think however that in a musical you want to hear amazing singing, so dodging around the fact that Fanny is a hard sing and Sheridan perhaps doesn't have the most suitable voice, is odd for that reason.
I'm not personally trying to twist her performance into something it's not. I loved it for what it was when I saw it, don't so much love her cast album performance, however clearly it's some people's cup of tea.
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Post by wickedgrin on Aug 18, 2016 8:59:52 GMT
Oh dear .... I didn't really want to contribute to this discussion but .... oh well here's my two penneth for what it's worth!
In my view this is the same argument as Liza Minelli / Sally Bowles in Cabaret. Both Streisand and Minelli give iconic wonderful performances in Funny Girl and Cabaret respectively BUT they are NOT the characters that existed or orgininally written (I Am A Camera). Sally Bowles was a very average/mediocre performer in a very run down, seedy Kit Kat Club in the novel. If she had performed like Minelli there is no way she would have been stuck in the sleazy club - stardom would have beckoned. The issue is that when people see Cabaret on stage they expect Liza Minelli and the songs to be sung in the same way. The role was originally played in London by Judi Dench and although a fabulous actress can never be described as a singer. The parallels with Funny Girl - Streisand and Smith are clear to see.
SO (in my very humble opinion) if you want to see the songs "sung the hell out of" etc. then go and see a concert or indeed an opera, but this is musical theatre where a more rounded performance is the norm. A performer has to act the role, look the part (not necessarily true in a concert) and carry the company and the audience. It is so much more than just "singing".
My Man was never in the stage musical of Funny Girl it was added for the film.
I really should not add fuel to the fire should I ?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 9:31:18 GMT
Your fuel is way more interesting than some of the fire in here...
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Post by heymrziegfeld on Aug 18, 2016 10:28:48 GMT
SO (in my very humble opinion) if you want to see the songs "sung the hell out of" etc. then go and see a concert or indeed an opera, but this is musical theatre where a more rounded performance is the norm. A performer has to act the role, look the part (not necessarily true in a concert) and carry the company and the audience. It is so much more than just "singing". I was also on the sidelines for this conversation but this got me interested. Is it wrong to want a rounded performance WITH the songs being "sung the hell out of"? I don't think so. Yes it is musical theatre so I would assume that both the acting and singing would be as strong as each other. As you say if you are only interested in the singing - go to the Opera - similarly one could say if you are only interested in the acting - go see a play. But for musical theatre - one needs both to be equally impressive (this is why I love it) For me, this show is especially about star quality, both in acting AND voice so I agree with @kevinuk when he says that Sheridan was miscast. I absolutely think her acting is brilliant, I found that part of her performance so impressive but to put it plainly her vocals are a let down. And in a show with such recognisable, powerful songs, which are easily stronger than the book supporting them, the singing should be equally important. And if people really believe that Sheridan is "choosing" to sing the songs like that instead of a more powerful (or at least - in tune) interpretation - then fair be it - but then I definitely don't think she made the right performance choice. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 10:35:19 GMT
I recently visited funny girl and saw the wonderful Natasha, she was sublime and her voice was one of the best I have ever heard in musical theatre, a genuine talent. She performed the role wonderfully. I am going back next week to see her again I enjoyed it so very much. Kevin, I would recommend seeing her in the role if you so wished, because she really was something to see.
Sheridan, I have also seen once and heard from the cast recording, she left a lot to be desired for me. I believe that she would never have been cast in this role should she be say an unknown as Natasha was. I agree with Kevin in that she is miscast here, for all of her talent, this role wasn't for her.
I completely disagree with posters who suggest her singing is a directional choice for a few reasons, one being they didn't give that same note to Natasha to sing it poorly. Natasha sings it so well, they clearly haven't told her to not sing as well as she could because Fanny didn't.
Another thing I truly disagree on, is the idea that 'who says a song should be sung in that way', well for one the composer of the songs. If the note is there for the singer to hit, then they should be able to reach it. I fully agree with the other poster, Evita is a role for a good singer, even though Eva Peron wasn't. You wouldn't excuse a poor singer in that role and say it was fine as Eva couldn't reach those notes either. If you go to the theatre and expect the songs like don't cry for me Argentina or don't rain on my parade, you expect them to be done correctly and those notes hit every time.
I would not expect an amateur performer cast in the role to miss them, so a star turn should have to too.
Her acting may well be special in the role, but the role also compromises of a lot of songs, to be sung to a certain standard, which, I am sorry to say, she just doesn't reach.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 10:37:42 GMT
I really should not add fuel to the fire should I ? A fire without fuel is just ... hot oxygen, I guess. Or something. I don't know where I'm going with this. Although with the right chemistry almost everything is a fuel. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 18, 2016 10:44:19 GMT
I completely disagree with posters who suggest her singing is a directional choice for a few reasons, one being they didn't give that same note to Natasha to sing it poorly. Natasha sings it so well, they clearly haven't told her to not sing as well as she could because Fanny didn't. *BOOM!* Although someone will be along in a minute to tell you that because Natasha isn't as good an actress as Sheridan she wasn't capable of doing that  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 10:52:25 GMT
"My Man' (as with 'Second Hand Rose' and 'I'd rather be Blue') sticks out stylistically from the film, where it was shoehorned in, cutting out, in my opinion, the best song in the show 'The Music That Makes me Dance'. Overall, though, it's not one of Styne's greatest scores, covered up by having a few really great songs. 'Fade Out - Fade In', the Carol Burnett vehicle from the same year is a much more coherent and effective score but the show has, for some reason, been forgotten by history. Having a film version is both a blessing and a curse, it keeps a show in the public eye but it calcifies it through those that want to see the movie onstage.
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Post by broadwaylover99 on Aug 18, 2016 11:02:19 GMT
Music That Makes Me Dance is probably my favourite song in the show. Talk about great songwriting!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 11:16:04 GMT
'My Man' was written by the French composer Maurice Yvain, who wrote for singers like Maurice Chevalier and Mistinguett, sometimes producers would interpolate them into revues but he also wrote complete scores himself. 'Ta Bouche' being probably the most well known, although 'Pas Sur La Bouche', the sequel was surprisingly filmed by Alain Resnais recently (here's the trailer).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 11:17:15 GMT
I hope Sheridan continues to do more stage work. Maybe she won't do a musical for a while but I hope she still does plays for limited seasons
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Post by Nelly on Aug 18, 2016 11:52:06 GMT
I hope Sheridan continues to do more stage work. Maybe she won't do a musical for a while but I hope she still does plays for limited seasons Having seen Sheridan in a number of musicals, plays and TV including Funny Girl I do also hope she does more stage work but not musicals. For the roles she's been cast in I've never thought she's been as good (vocally) as others I've seen in the role. In Legally Blonde she was funny (but felt she more played herself with an american accent, than Elle Woods) but was not a patch on Laura Bell Bundy who I saw in the show on Brodway. When I saw Little Shop of Horrors, again acting couldn't be faulted but when I saw Jodie Jacobs as understudy later on, she had both the acting and vocal chops. The same again goes for Funny Girl, sadly. I've stayed out of stuff on this thread for a while and decided (until now) not to post my views on Sheridan/Natasha because I didn't want to be drawn into stuff but the direction the thread is going in has got me interested again. I can understand the acting choice argument a little but when it comes to a big song I just want them to nail it, simple as. I don't want to feel like they've shirked on a big note or just not had the capability to do it. As someone pointed out if you can't act the crap out of the song whilst singing the crap out of it (when needed) then it can't help but feel like poor casting. Especially when you seen someone else nail the song/role on a different night in the same production. Yes understudies 'ism's' can be different to the leads but they're still being directed etc by the same creative team, they still have the same brief. There wouldn't be a 'one rule for one and another for another situation on the same incarnation of a show. Simple as that. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 18, 2016 12:05:14 GMT
I hope Sheridan continues to do more stage work. Maybe she won't do a musical for a while but I hope she still does plays for limited seasons I think she seems better suited to telly. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 18, 2016 12:14:18 GMT
I'm GAGGING to find out who will be the touring Fanny. When do we think we'll find out?
I've got a group of nine going. I don't think they'll be that impressed if there's someone up on stage who can't sing it very well (acting choice or otherwise) but they will be expecting those songs to be absolutely nailed. I suspect the rest of the paying public in Manchester, and all of the tour venues, will feel exactly the same.
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