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Post by scarpia on Jun 30, 2020 22:16:35 GMT
- There has never been any mention of bringing in the 25th anniversary tour and I am 100% sure they will not! So nobody needs to worry about the angel scene at end of act 1 being that one. Rather, surely they will bring in elements from this year's ill fated tour. So few of us have seen it we can't really judge but audience response seemed to be excellent. We also know that set was not 100% complete in Leicester due to the low proscenium and was to be 100% unveiled in Manchester. There is nothing in the recent tour that is superior to what has been at Her Majesty's. The proscenium statues were removed, the Angel was done away with, the chandelier was replaced with the cheap thing from Laurence Connor's production which did not rise from the stage, and some of the gorgeous drapery was eliminated in favour of easier-to-tour flats. The tour did not introduce new effects or anything special that was not possible in 1986. Getting rid of the original Les Mis had nothing to do with stopping the show from being a museum piece, and everything to do with ££££. If Mackintosh had been serious about breathing new life into Les Mis, he'd have contracted first-rate creatives, not previous assistants to the original creative team, and he certainly wouldn't have put into the Sondheim what is actually already a decade-old production. Cameron has repeatedly stressed the economics of running Phantom in past interviews. The motive here is about spending less, while no doubt charging more when the show re-opens. Here is Mackintosh in 2007: "I suspect there will come a time when this glamorous production is no long viable." Then, when the Connor version toured, he was interviewed by the Chicago Times. A quote from that piece: "No show now moves with quite so much cargo: it's impossible to turn a profit. Had Mackintosh tried to reopen the old tour, he'd likely have been faced with the Faustian choice of financial duress or being saddled with the rap that he was compromising his reputation by cutting out much of the scenery." With the Connor version having been ill-received (and consigned to the dustbin), Mackintosh is back at the same dilemma, and has seems to have opted for the latter. |
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42ndBlvd
Swing
I'll be back where I was born to be
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Post by 42ndBlvd on Jul 1, 2020 16:55:06 GMT
- There has never been any mention of bringing in the 25th anniversary tour and I am 100% sure they will not! So nobody needs to worry about the angel scene at end of act 1 being that one. Rather, surely they will bring in elements from this year's ill fated tour. So few of us have seen it we can't really judge but audience response seemed to be excellent. We also know that set was not 100% complete in Leicester due to the low proscenium and was to be 100% unveiled in Manchester. There is nothing in the recent tour that is superior to what has been at Her Majesty's. The proscenium statues were removed, the Angel was done away with, the chandelier was replaced with the cheap thing from Laurence Connor's production which did not rise from the stage, and some of the gorgeous drapery was eliminated in favour of easier-to-tour flats. The tour did not introduce new effects or anything special that was not possible in 1986. Getting rid of the original Les Mis had nothing to do with stopping the show from being a museum piece, and everything to do with ££££. If Mackintosh had been serious about breathing new life into Les Mis, he'd have contracted first-rate creatives, not previous assistants to the original creative team, and he certainly wouldn't have put into the Sondheim what is actually already a decade-old production. Cameron has repeatedly stressed the economics of running Phantom in past interviews. The motive here is about spending less, while no doubt charging more when the show re-opens. Here is Mackintosh in 2007: "I suspect there will come a time when this glamorous production is no long viable." Then, when the Connor version toured, he was interviewed by the Chicago Times. A quote from that piece: "No show now moves with quite so much cargo: it's impossible to turn a profit. Had Mackintosh tried to reopen the old tour, he'd likely have been faced with the Faustian choice of financial duress or being saddled with the rap that he was compromising his reputation by cutting out much of the scenery." With the Connor version having been ill-received (and consigned to the dustbin), Mackintosh is back at the same dilemma, and has seems to have opted for the latter. Weirdly enough, the Lawrence production toured North America for 7 years before Covid19 stepped in. American audiences seemed fine with the changes even though the original production toured there for a few decades. |
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42ndBlvd
Swing
I'll be back where I was born to be
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Post by 42ndBlvd on Jul 1, 2020 17:04:21 GMT
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Post by scarpia on Jul 1, 2020 17:36:01 GMT
There is nothing in the recent tour that is superior to what has been at Her Majesty's. The proscenium statues were removed, the Angel was done away with, the chandelier was replaced with the cheap thing from Laurence Connor's production which did not rise from the stage, and some of the gorgeous drapery was eliminated in favour of easier-to-tour flats. The tour did not introduce new effects or anything special that was not possible in 1986. Getting rid of the original Les Mis had nothing to do with stopping the show from being a museum piece, and everything to do with ££££. If Mackintosh had been serious about breathing new life into Les Mis, he'd have contracted first-rate creatives, not previous assistants to the original creative team, and he certainly wouldn't have put into the Sondheim what is actually already a decade-old production. Cameron has repeatedly stressed the economics of running Phantom in past interviews. The motive here is about spending less, while no doubt charging more when the show re-opens. Here is Mackintosh in 2007: "I suspect there will come a time when this glamorous production is no long viable." Then, when the Connor version toured, he was interviewed by the Chicago Times. A quote from that piece: "No show now moves with quite so much cargo: it's impossible to turn a profit. Had Mackintosh tried to reopen the old tour, he'd likely have been faced with the Faustian choice of financial duress or being saddled with the rap that he was compromising his reputation by cutting out much of the scenery." With the Connor version having been ill-received (and consigned to the dustbin), Mackintosh is back at the same dilemma, and has seems to have opted for the latter. Weirdly enough, the Lawrence production toured North America for 7 years before Covid19 stepped in. American audiences seemed fine with the changes even though the original production toured there for a few decades. It did do a run in America, but it wasn't generally received well by audiences who knew better. It also got more critical reviews since the regional reviewers seemed more familiar with the original than the UK regional reviewers. I don't know anyone who has seen both who prefers the restaged version. Anyway, word is that it's been junked and will not be seen again...which is why Cameron Mackintosh set to work trying to find a way to downscale the original and make that economically viable to tour again (since he clearly feels the days of the old-school tours of the 90s won't turn a profit now). Re the Angel being axed, cast members have been speculating about this too, so this rumour hasn't come out of nowhere. They were even thinking of axing it in the US tours of the 1990s and 2000s, but Maria Björnson was dead against it as it was her favourite setpiece. I assume Hal Prince then took up the mantle for her when she passed away, but tragically he's no longer with us to help preserve the artistic integrity of the show. |
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Post by chernjam on Jul 1, 2020 18:01:01 GMT
Sorry, no. There's a sound that comes from a 20+-piece theatre orchestra with a decent string section that you just cannot replicate with half the number of players in the pit, and that lush string-based sound is a big part - a bigger part than you might expect - of the impact of a show like 'Phantom'. Downsizing the orchestra WILL have an effect. The revival of 'Miss Saigon' had a significantly smaller orchestra than the original London production, and it showed. The music didn't sound nearly as good. I get that productions are going to have to save money, and that these are exceptional circumstances, but don't let's pretend that larger orchestras are "unnecessary", or that downsizing the band can be done without any impact on the overall quality of the show. I don't disagree. There is a lush sound from a huge orchestra. But you are in the 1% who would notice. 99% of the punters at Her Majesty's have no idea how many people are in the pit and if this was changed would not notice. Also with modern technology it will still sound excellent. Though I appreciate, to purists not as good. "Unnecessary" in a commercial way. They will save the money of 15 musicians and have no effect on the box office take. Of course it's a shame. Believe me nobody mourns the loss of the frivolous spending we saw on the mega musicals more than I do. But as ever, show BUSINESS. And a 30 piece orchestra is sadly unnecessary in the 2020 commercial workings of a West End long runner. Interesting debate (live vs canned music and the effect it has on live Theatre) I remember seeing "Sunday in the Park" with Jake Gyllenhal with I think a 9 piece "orchestra" which sounded pretty full to me - have been at live performances that sounded live only to find out the singers were there with canned music... but can't explain how amazing it was seeing Sunset on Broadway with a 40 piece orchestra. The music from the overture felt like it was washing over me like a wave. Cannot recall ever experiencing that type of effect that really enhanced the performance overall. There's obviously lots of painful financial realities that will be facing -well not just the arts, everyone and everything. Would hate to see live orchestras being dropped - heck, I hoped that Sunset might inspire larger "symphonic" performances. But at this point, trying to get live arts - live is really urgent |
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Post by danb on Jul 1, 2020 18:12:04 GMT
I think stuff like Sunset & the Gyllenhal George are very much the exception. The level of upfront outlay needs the guarantee that only A list Hollywood can provide. The only way they can really make any sort of profit is to offer more lavish packages and make it premium.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 18:16:56 GMT
Ahhh, I deffo don't think it should (or ever would be) canned! Just putting the case for a 15 piece orchestra bleeding synth and 'real' strings as a decent compromise in the Corona climate.
On Sunset - can anyone remember how many musicians were in the Adelphi pit? Most annoyingly the CD does not list them....
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Post by sf on Jul 1, 2020 18:21:00 GMT
I remember seeing "Sunday in the Park" with Jake Gyllenhal with I think a 9 piece "orchestra" which sounded pretty full to me One difference there, though, is that Sunday In The Park's original orchestrations were created for an orchestra of only eleven musicians, and the show was written with a chamber production in mind. There's a reason the original Broadway production went into the Booth, which is one of Broadway's smallest houses. |
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Post by danb on Jul 1, 2020 19:30:01 GMT
Ahhh, I deffo don't think it should (or ever would be) canned! Just putting the case for a 15 piece orchestra bleeding synth and 'real' strings as a decent compromise in the Corona climate. On Sunset - can anyone remember how many musicians were in the Adelphi pit? Most annoyingly the CD does not list them.... Jeez Dom don’t send me into the box of doom under my daughters bed...I’ll be covered in dust for days. It was certainly a healthily sized band; we often sat front row as it was a little cheaper than the rest of the stalls in the Paige glory years. I would sit in wonder at the noise they were making. The ENO orchestra were something else though weren’t they. What a noise that was. I could’ve cried when the orchestra struck up that overture....swoon. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 19:50:46 GMT
Ahhh, I deffo don't think it should (or ever would be) canned! Just putting the case for a 15 piece orchestra bleeding synth and 'real' strings as a decent compromise in the Corona climate. On Sunset - can anyone remember how many musicians were in the Adelphi pit? Most annoyingly the CD does not list them.... Jeez Dom don’t send me into the box of doom under my daughters bed...I’ll be covered in dust for days. It was certainly a healthily sized band; we often sat front row as it was a little cheaper than the rest of the stalls in the Paige glory years. I would sit in wonder at the noise they were making. The ENO orchestra were something else though weren’t they. What a noise that was. I could’ve cried when the orchestra struck up that overture....swoon. LOL! If you don’t, then I’ll have to next time I’m at my parents house ;-) Have LuPone, Buckley and of course EP editions of the programme somewhere... Insane score, just love it. |
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Post by danb on Jul 1, 2020 20:06:03 GMT
Busy couple of days with the whole world reopening, but I’ll try and get under there and have a look.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 20:07:01 GMT
And another random souvenir brochure question - was the Phantom one ever updated with the Josh Piterman/Danny Whitehead cast?
It hadn't been when I went in January which is unusual as Phantom usually pretty good with this.
If there ever was one, would be quite the collector's item now!
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Post by sf on Jul 1, 2020 21:36:29 GMT
On Sunset - can anyone remember how many musicians were in the Adelphi pit? Most annoyingly the CD does not list them.... Can't remember exactly, and my programmes etc are all in storage right now, but 24-ish. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 22:31:33 GMT
On Sunset - can anyone remember how many musicians were in the Adelphi pit? Most annoyingly the CD does not list them.... I just got out of bed to go look for you... all my programmes are in a box elsewhere in the house.. find the box, programmes going back 35 years.... but no Sunset programme?? HUH? got the original brochure, but the programme... HMMM..... There's another box somewhere... if someone hasn't already found the answer, i'll dig out the other boxes tomorrow. I'm now a man on a mission to find my Sunset programmes... But i did see all the brochures from so many shows i havent looked at in years... thats now my plan for the weekend!! |
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Post by viserys on Jul 2, 2020 6:27:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 6:56:09 GMT
Haha, fabulous! Thank you. So almost as many as current Phantom orchestra. Very much in line with the mega musicals. My next geeky interest is how many musicians the original Phantom tours had.... Looking at the Chess programme was pleasantly surprised that at the Prince Edward there was a 27 piece orchestra. (Should probs start a separate orchestra based thread....) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 8:59:26 GMT
Haha, fabulous! Thank you. So almost as many as current Phantom orchestra. Very much in line with the mega musicals. My next geeky interest is how many musicians the original Phantom tours had.... I've just had a quick dig and found programmes for the following: - Sunset Boulevard (Adelphi): 23 musicians
- Sunset Boulevard (2001 Faith Brown UK Tour): 14 musicians
- Phantom (1993-1996 1st UK Tour): 27 musicians
- Phantom (1998-2000 2nd UK Tour): 18 musicians
- Phantom (2012 New Production 3rd UK Tour): 14 musicians
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 10:14:23 GMT
Haha, fabulous! Thank you. So almost as many as current Phantom orchestra. Very much in line with the mega musicals. My next geeky interest is how many musicians the original Phantom tours had.... I've just had a quick dig and found programmes for the following: - Sunset Boulevard (Adelphi): 23 musicians
- Sunset Boulevard (2001 Faith Brown UK Tour): 14 musicians
- Phantom (1993-1996 1st UK Tour): 27 musicians
- Phantom (1998-2000 2nd UK Tour): 18 musicians
- Phantom (2012 New Production 3rd UK Tour): 14 musicians
That's really interesting thanks for digging this out Furet. So Sunset at the Adelphi did sound sensational, so not surprised was a big ish orchestra. The Faith Brown tour I saw once in Birmingham but I honestly don't remember how it sounded. Or looked! (Was there a souvenir brochure for this tour? I only had a programme....) That's very interesting that the second original Phantom tour cut the orchestra from 27 to 18. I saw the tour once, in Bristol but honestly have no idea if it was the 1st or 2nd. Was it just the orchestra that was cut or were there other changes, in the set for example? Not surprised re 25th anniversary version. 14/15/16 ish pretty standard these days for the largest pit orchestras (current London Phantom aside). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 13:59:00 GMT
I've just had a quick dig and found programmes for the following: - Sunset Boulevard (Adelphi): 23 musicians
- Sunset Boulevard (2001 Faith Brown UK Tour): 14 musicians
- Phantom (1993-1996 1st UK Tour): 27 musicians
- Phantom (1998-2000 2nd UK Tour): 18 musicians
- Phantom (2012 New Production 3rd UK Tour): 14 musicians
That's really interesting thanks for digging this out Furet. So Sunset at the Adelphi did sound sensational, so not surprised was a big ish orchestra. The Faith Brown tour I saw once in Birmingham but I honestly don't remember how it sounded. Or looked! (Was there a souvenir brochure for this tour? I only had a programme....) That's very interesting that the second original Phantom tour cut the orchestra from 27 to 18. I saw the tour once, in Bristol but honestly have no idea if it was the 1st or 2nd. Was it just the orchestra that was cut or were there other changes, in the set for example? Not surprised re 25th anniversary version. 14/15/16 ish pretty standard these days for the largest pit orchestras (current London Phantom aside). I can't remember if there was a souvenir brochure for the Faith Brown Sunset tour, but I saw it quite late on in the run (as Earl Carpenter had already left), so if there was one, I should have it. I'll check.
It would have been the second Phantom tour you saw in Bristol, as the first tour wasn't so much of a tour but more a sit-down production in Manchester (for almost two years at the Opera House) and then Edinburgh. As it was a sit-down production, it was an exact replica of the London/Broadway show, including the set and orchestra. However, the second tour was designed to visit a lot more venues, so some things had been simplified (and the orchestra reduced) to allow it to tour, but I can't remember how much was noticeable to the audience. It still took two weeks to set up at venues though (and played some 16-week runs), so was still a large production.
Like you, Dom, I miss the extravagance of the 90s mega musicals and the money that was thrown at them. Even the first tour of Les Mis (which only played Manchester, Dublin and Edinburgh) used the original Broadway barricades from before it moved to the Imperial Theatre, and I remember they had to knock down the back wall of the Edinburgh Playhouse to load them into the theatre.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 15:45:08 GMT
The first Phantom tour was gorgeous. I went to see it in Manchester in 1994, with a friend who had been Theatre Manager at Her Majesty's for years. We went back stage and visited all the leads in their dressing rooms, as most had been in the London production and got to go on stage and look around.
Then we had a debaunched night in the city. Good times!
I think the last time i saw Phantom was around 12 years later, in Vancouver of all places. The theatre was enormous. the only thing i remember was them stopping the show because the chandelier got stuck in the opening.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 16:55:29 GMT
That's really interesting thanks for digging this out Furet. So Sunset at the Adelphi did sound sensational, so not surprised was a big ish orchestra. The Faith Brown tour I saw once in Birmingham but I honestly don't remember how it sounded. Or looked! (Was there a souvenir brochure for this tour? I only had a programme....) That's very interesting that the second original Phantom tour cut the orchestra from 27 to 18. I saw the tour once, in Bristol but honestly have no idea if it was the 1st or 2nd. Was it just the orchestra that was cut or were there other changes, in the set for example? Not surprised re 25th anniversary version. 14/15/16 ish pretty standard these days for the largest pit orchestras (current London Phantom aside). I can't remember if there was a souvenir brochure for the Faith Brown Sunset tour, but I saw it quite late on in the run (as Earl Carpenter had already left), so if there was one, I should have it. I'll check.
It would have been the second Phantom tour you saw in Bristol, as the first tour wasn't so much of a tour but more a sit-down production in Manchester (for almost two years at the Opera House) and then Edinburgh. As it was a sit-down production, it was an exact replica of the London/Broadway show, including the set and orchestra. However, the second tour was designed to visit a lot more venues, so some things had been simplified (and the orchestra reduced) to allow it to tour, but I can't remember how much was noticeable to the audience. It still took two weeks to set up at venues though (and played some 16-week runs), so was still a large production.
Like you, Dom, I miss the extravagance of the 90s mega musicals and the money that was thrown at them. Even the first tour of Les Mis (which only played Manchester, Dublin and Edinburgh) used the original Broadway barricades from before it moved to the Imperial Theatre, and I remember they had to knock down the back wall of the Edinburgh Playhouse to load them into the theatre.
Ahhh yes that would make sense - recall that Manchester had sit downs of Les Mis and Phantom. Gosh, two years at the Opera House. That's insane! Imagine a musical doing that now (I can't!). So the 2nd tour was still pretty lavish - I can't recall what differences there were from the original, but was such a long time ago. Yeah, I know I bang on about it, but I really do miss the extravagance of the 80s/90s. The whole attitude seemed to be that they wanted to create the most ambitious and spectacular shows possible and they didn't mind what they spent to wow people. It worked though as people flocked to these shows for years so it was ultimately highly profitable. Nowadays it always seems to be how much can they save and how much (immediate) profit can they make. I do feel lucky at least to have witnessed musicals on epic scale of cast, orchestra and sets. No idea if we will ever see such things again. |
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Post by richey on Jul 2, 2020 16:58:12 GMT
That's really interesting thanks for digging this out Furet. So Sunset at the Adelphi did sound sensational, so not surprised was a big ish orchestra. The Faith Brown tour I saw once in Birmingham but I honestly don't remember how it sounded. Or looked! (Was there a souvenir brochure for this tour? I only had a programme....) That's very interesting that the second original Phantom tour cut the orchestra from 27 to 18. I saw the tour once, in Bristol but honestly have no idea if it was the 1st or 2nd. Was it just the orchestra that was cut or were there other changes, in the set for example? Not surprised re 25th anniversary version. 14/15/16 ish pretty standard these days for the largest pit orchestras (current London Phantom aside). I can't remember if there was a souvenir brochure for the Faith Brown Sunset tour, but I saw it quite late on in the run (as Earl Carpenter had already left), so if there was one, I should have it.
There was a brochure for Faith Brown's tour, have had a look through my collection and found it |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 17:05:16 GMT
I can't remember if there was a souvenir brochure for the Faith Brown Sunset tour, but I saw it quite late on in the run (as Earl Carpenter had already left), so if there was one, I should have it.
There was a brochure for Faith Brown's tour, have had a look through my collection and found it Wonderful - thanks. Can't believe I didn't get one... Perhaps they weren't on sale when I went in Birmingham! |
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Post by distantcousin on Jul 6, 2020 15:39:18 GMT
I've just had a quick dig and found programmes for the following: - Sunset Boulevard (Adelphi): 23 musicians
- Sunset Boulevard (2001 Faith Brown UK Tour): 14 musicians
- Phantom (1993-1996 1st UK Tour): 27 musicians
- Phantom (1998-2000 2nd UK Tour): 18 musicians
- Phantom (2012 New Production 3rd UK Tour): 14 musicians
That's really interesting thanks for digging this out Furet. So Sunset at the Adelphi did sound sensational, so not surprised was a big ish orchestra. The Faith Brown tour I saw once in Birmingham but I honestly don't remember how it sounded. Or looked! (Was there a souvenir brochure for this tour? I only had a programme....) That's very interesting that the second original Phantom tour cut the orchestra from 27 to 18. I saw the tour once, in Bristol but honestly have no idea if it was the 1st or 2nd. Was it just the orchestra that was cut or were there other changes, in the set for example? Not surprised re 25th anniversary version. 14/15/16 ish pretty standard these days for the largest pit orchestras (current London Phantom aside). There was a souvenir brochure for the Faith Brown Tour - I have it! |
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42ndBlvd
Swing
I'll be back where I was born to be
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Post by 42ndBlvd on Jul 6, 2020 21:27:00 GMT
I can't remember if there was a souvenir brochure for the Faith Brown Sunset tour, but I saw it quite late on in the run (as Earl Carpenter had already left), so if there was one, I should have it. I'll check.
It would have been the second Phantom tour you saw in Bristol, as the first tour wasn't so much of a tour but more a sit-down production in Manchester (for almost two years at the Opera House) and then Edinburgh. As it was a sit-down production, it was an exact replica of the London/Broadway show, including the set and orchestra. However, the second tour was designed to visit a lot more venues, so some things had been simplified (and the orchestra reduced) to allow it to tour, but I can't remember how much was noticeable to the audience. It still took two weeks to set up at venues though (and played some 16-week runs), so was still a large production.
Like you, Dom, I miss the extravagance of the 90s mega musicals and the money that was thrown at them. Even the first tour of Les Mis (which only played Manchester, Dublin and Edinburgh) used the original Broadway barricades from before it moved to the Imperial Theatre, and I remember they had to knock down the back wall of the Edinburgh Playhouse to load them into the theatre.
Ahhh yes that would make sense - recall that Manchester had sit downs of Les Mis and Phantom. Gosh, two years at the Opera House. That's insane! Imagine a musical doing that now (I can't!). So the 2nd tour was still pretty lavish - I can't recall what differences there were from the original, but was such a long time ago. Yeah, I know I bang on about it, but I really do miss the extravagance of the 80s/90s. The whole attitude seemed to be that they wanted to create the most ambitious and spectacular shows possible and they didn't mind what they spent to wow people. It worked though as people flocked to these shows for years so it was ultimately highly profitable. Nowadays it always seems to be how much can they save and how much (immediate) profit can they make. I do feel lucky at least to have witnessed musicals on epic scale of cast, orchestra and sets. No idea if we will ever see such things again. Yep pretty much the old days of large orchestras seem to be long behind us... I remember when they did the revival of sunset boulevard 3 years ago in London and broadway with an orchestra of 40 and god did it sound fantastic, though the glamour of the set design was gone... |
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