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Post by Oliver on May 4, 2022 17:25:04 GMT
I'm not as well informed about the behind the scenes goings on as people here. The fact that you talk in such strong terms about his character makes me think there is an awful lot I have missed. If you can point me to any resources where I can find out more about his treatment of colleagues, employees etc, I would appreciate it. I am interested in knowing the truth whatever that might be. I’d seriously suggest listening to The Sunset Project podcast series: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-sunset-project/id1546127361?i=1000503219900Very interesting, and informative if you want to know ALW’s modus operandi. Many thanks for the info. I will give it a listen. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 17:49:26 GMT
I'm not as well informed about the behind the scenes goings on as people here. The fact that you talk in such strong terms about his character makes me think there is an awful lot I have missed. If you can point me to any resources where I can find out more about his treatment of colleagues, employees etc, I would appreciate it. I am interested in knowing the truth whatever that might be. You'll need to read back through this thread. Scarpia and I have provided and linked to numerous, dozens even, of examples of questionable and morally dubious conduct. His production covered up Rebecca Caine's physical and emotional abuse at the hands of Colm Wilkinson, he fired Patti LuPone (without telling her) from Sunset Boulevard, then tried to get out of paying her contract, only to get absolutely taken apart. He had a huge falling out with Jack O'Brien who directed Love Never Dies, essentially blaming him for the failure of the show. The show without O'Brien, restaged in Australia, actually did even worse. At Phantom he promised, an actual promise, that he would not downsize the show. He then does the opposite and essentially blames Cameron Mackintosh. Then there's everything happening and has happened at Cinderella, including the telephone dressing down given to the cast on stage, his subsequent comments to the press, the unhappiness of the cast, and the subsequent failure to inform everyone working in his theatre that they are losing their jobs. Then there's all the stuff with Hal Prince and Evita, it goes on and on. I'm not sure how much ALW was involved in this. Rebecca has spoken out about this a lot recently on her social media, but I don't think I've seen any accusations towards ALW or RUG. Her main issue is with Garth Drabinsky and his production company, Livent, and has at times referred to the "boys club" of Drabinsky, Colm Wilkinson and Hal Prince. I believe Rebecca Caine's issues with ALW are related to her time in the London production. |
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Post by Oliver on May 4, 2022 17:54:06 GMT
You'll need to read back through this thread. Scarpia and I have provided and linked to numerous, dozens even, of examples of questionable and morally dubious conduct. His production covered up Rebecca Caine's physical and emotional abuse at the hands of Colm Wilkinson, he fired Patti LuPone (without telling her) from Sunset Boulevard, then tried to get out of paying her contract, only to get absolutely taken apart. He had a huge falling out with Jack O'Brien who directed Love Never Dies, essentially blaming him for the failure of the show. The show without O'Brien, restaged in Australia, actually did even worse. At Phantom he promised, an actual promise, that he would not downsize the show. He then does the opposite and essentially blames Cameron Mackintosh. Then there's everything happening and has happened at Cinderella, including the telephone dressing down given to the cast on stage, his subsequent comments to the press, the unhappiness of the cast, and the subsequent failure to inform everyone working in his theatre that they are losing their jobs. Then there's all the stuff with Hal Prince and Evita, it goes on and on. I'm not sure how much ALW was involved in this. Rebecca has spoken out about this a lot recently on her social media, but I don't think I've seen any accusations towards ALW or RUG. Her main issue is with Garth Drabinsky and his production company, Livent, and has at times referred to the "boys club" of Drabinsky, Colm Wilkinson and Hal Prince. I believe Rebecca Caine's issues with ALW are related to her time in the London production. Goodness, I missed that! I would have mentioned that in my reply. That would indeed be appalling if true. |
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Post by scarpia on May 4, 2022 22:23:42 GMT
Also ALW isn't as much of a "public" figure as these other people, he's quite media shy, and doesn't get the opportunity to defend himself from these accusations. I knew about the incident with Patti Lupone, the issue there appears to be that a hugely successful musical theatre star who got her big break in an ALW show, Evita, and performed in the London run of another ALW show, Sunset Boulevard, didn't get the chance to perform the same role on Broadway, and found out about this at short notice. That seems to be the sum of it. Are you kidding re ALW being media shy? He's anything but. What other musical theatre composer do you know is a regular TV guest and has done reality shows casting his own musicals? He is regularly interviewed and even writes for newspapers. He has plenty of airtime and a huge platform to 'defend' himself. Regarding LuPone, that is not the sum of it. She did not find out about not having 'the chance to perform the same role on Broadway [...] at short notice'. She was contractually committed to doing London and Broadway. Then RUG played its usual gaslighting game and placed a steady drip-to-drip of articles in the press designed to unsettle her so that it would be her that broke her contract and walked away, because ALW had changed his mind about casting. No performer should have that happen to them. In the end, RUG/ALW never told her she was fired. She found out because Liz Smith broke it in her gossip column. Just as Amy Powers never was told by ALW/RUG she was fired. Just as the current Cinderella cast were not told and found out through the media. If you're genuine about this, then off the top of my head I'd suggest the following (in addition to that Sunset podcast): - Andrew Lloyd Webber: His Life and Works by Michael Walsh. A perfect blend of detailed analysis and biography, and hasn't been bettered. Others (e.g. Stephen Citron) have copied huge chunks from it. It caused a stir when it came out because it was the first to treat ALW's works seriously and Walsh is a fan, but he is not blind to the weaknesses of certain shows nor to ALW's personality faults. Get the later edition so it covers Sunset and Whistle.
- After that, do read David Chandler's well-written chapter on ALW in the Oxford Handbook to the British Musical.
- Also read the biographies about ALW by Gerard McKnight, Jonathan Mantle and Michael Coveney. Coveney is generally sympathetic, Mantle less so. McKnight from recollection was a bit trashier but it gives you a sense of the early days. You may as well add John Snelson's book on ALW to that list too, but that is mostly an analysis of the works but there are interesting comments anyway about ALW/RUG's way of operating.
- The following books about/by ALW's collaborators: Foster Hirsch's book on Hal Prince (see what Hal says about the Whistle saga); the biography about Don Black called Wrestling with Elephants (can't remember who the author is); and, obviously, Tim Rice's autobiography, Oh What a Circus.
- Even if you don't like her, you should read both the Evita and Sunset chapters in LuPone's memoir. Check out her comments in Nothing Like A Dame too, and if you read that book then also see what Judy Kaye says.
Oh, he has but very quietly a few years after saying at the time it was the best thing since sliced bread etc. He said in 2009 that he was never really happy with it, not explaining why (despite at the time publicly stating how he couldn't see how it could be any better), then in 2018 he said it wasn't great 'but not awful', then last year he said it didn't work because Gerard Butler was allegedly 'too young'. I disagree BTW that the critical drubbing it got was down to a dislike of the film. In some cases yes, but in many other cases there were plenty of reviewers who had time for the original stage version and (rightly) considered the film a travesty.
This was my understanding too. IIRC, his behaviour seems to have been similar to any of the Christines he felt were 'competing' with his then-wife. Caine, for instance, wanted to sing the title song cadenza live (even though Brightman relied on the recorded track). ALW did not take kindly to that.
Separately, I'm loving the fact that several posters keep naming *my* personal favourite ALW's as theirs too (Phantom, Evita, Sunset...). I think those, together with Superstar (and the score at least for Aspects, though it's problematic) are his best.
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Post by anthony on May 4, 2022 23:17:15 GMT
To be fair, Phantom isn't doing too well on Broadway, either. Their average capacity last week was 51%; week before that only 64%. Whilst the new staging is rubbish (I've been very critical of it mostly - although I really don't mind the horse  !) I think the bigger problem is the lack of tourists. |
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Post by Oliver on May 5, 2022 10:51:21 GMT
Also ALW isn't as much of a "public" figure as these other people, he's quite media shy, and doesn't get the opportunity to defend himself from these accusations. I knew about the incident with Patti Lupone, the issue there appears to be that a hugely successful musical theatre star who got her big break in an ALW show, Evita, and performed in the London run of another ALW show, Sunset Boulevard, didn't get the chance to perform the same role on Broadway, and found out about this at short notice. That seems to be the sum of it. Are you kidding re ALW being media shy? He's anything but. What other musical theatre composer do you know is a regular TV guest and has done reality shows casting his own musicals? He is regularly interviewed and even writes for newspapers. He has plenty of airtime and a huge platform to 'defend' himself. Regarding LuPone, that is not the sum of it. She did not find out about not having 'the chance to perform the same role on Broadway [...] at short notice'. She was contractually committed to doing London and Broadway. Then RUG played its usual gaslighting game and placed a steady drip-to-drip of articles in the press designed to unsettle her so that it would be her that broke her contract and walked away, because ALW had changed his mind about casting. No performer should have that happen to them. In the end, RUG/ALW never told her she was fired. She found out because Liz Smith broke it in her gossip column. Just as Amy Powers never was told by ALW/RUG she was fired. Just as the current Cinderella cast were not told and found out through the media. If you're genuine about this, then off the top of my head I'd suggest the following (in addition to that Sunset podcast): - Andrew Lloyd Webber: His Life and Works by Michael Walsh. A perfect blend of detailed analysis and biography, and hasn't been bettered. Others (e.g. Stephen Citron) have copied huge chunks from it. It caused a stir when it came out because it was the first to treat ALW's works seriously and Walsh is a fan, but he is not blind to the weaknesses of certain shows nor to ALW's personality faults. Get the later edition so it covers Sunset and Whistle.
- After that, do read David Chandler's well-written chapter on ALW in the Oxford Handbook to the British Musical.
- Also read the biographies about ALW by Gerard McKnight, Jonathan Mantle and Michael Coveney. Coveney is generally sympathetic, Mantle less so. McKnight from recollection was a bit trashier but it gives you a sense of the early days. You may as well add John Snelson's book on ALW to that list too, but that is mostly an analysis of the works but there are interesting comments anyway about ALW/RUG's way of operating.
- The following books about/by ALW's collaborators: Foster Hirsch's book on Hal Prince (see what Hal says about the Whistle saga); the biography about Don Black called Wrestling with Elephants (can't remember who the author is); and, obviously, Tim Rice's autobiography, Oh What a Circus.
- Even if you don't like her, you should read both the Evita and Sunset chapters in LuPone's memoir. Check out her comments in Nothing Like A Dame too, and if you read that book then also see what Judy Kaye says.
Oh, he has but very quietly a few years after saying at the time it was the best thing since sliced bread etc. He said in 2009 that he was never really happy with it, not explaining why (despite at the time publicly stating how he couldn't see how it could be any better), then in 2018 he said it wasn't great 'but not awful', then last year he said it didn't work because Gerard Butler was allegedly 'too young'. I disagree BTW that the critical drubbing it got was down to a dislike of the film. In some cases yes, but in many other cases there were plenty of reviewers who had time for the original stage version and (rightly) considered the film a travesty.
Thank you, I appreciate the trouble you've taken to highlight these resources. There are a number of resources in your list which I haven't come across so this is useful for me. I have read the books by Michael Walsh, John Snelson and Michael Coveney, none of which I liked. I didn't think there was anything in these books that was particularly negative about his character, though, but I may have overlooked something? Perhaps you were including these for context / background? I don't agree with you that Michael Walsh is a "fan". He seemed like he was posturing to me, he comes across as a show off, his tone condescending towards the composer throughout (whether he was praising or criticizing him). It's an enjoyable read, I admit, but he is wrong about so many things, arguing for example that "Vaults of Heaven" is a rip off of the Jurassic Park theme. Really? Because there's a phrase in each which bears resemblance? And this is a contradiction to his earlier defense of ALW from accusations of plagiarism by others which were less egregious than his. Many of his arguments are beyond stupid, suggesting that the version of M&R for Broadway is melodically superior to the original (when the reverse is actually true), lambasting WDTW for fairly minor details of local accuracy in a review that has no substance or interest whatsoever, criticising Skimbleshanks for transitioning into 4/4 when this is to a large extent determined by the meter of the verse. I couldn't imagine a better musical setting of that poem actually. I could go on and on. Snelson's critical evaluations are superior to Walsh's, he seems to know what he's talking about for the most part, but he spends too much valuable space defending the composer, for example mounting an elaborate defense against the plagiarism accusation in MOTN with reference to parallels between Phantom and Christine and Puccini's protagonists, which doesn't work anyway since the melody was originally composed for another show. All he needed to say was that a single phrase doesn't warrant accusations of plagiarism in music (or we should accuse Bernstein of the same in West Side Story, to use just one example). Michael Coveney comes across as a total sychophant in his awful book, the worst of the lot by far. It's so bad it's not even worth talking about. Re reviews, I was referring to the reviews of the CATS movie, not the Phantom movie. |
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Post by Jon on May 5, 2022 11:27:32 GMT
Honestly he really is such a me! me! me! man. Anything that will give him press... Remember when he threatened to get arrested during COVID. He threatened to sell his theatres at least twice as well which lost its shock value once you realised it was just a scare tactic. A lot of people in the theatre industry conducted themselves a lot better, be critical but not go too far. Sonia Friedman, Nica Burns and Howard Panter were able to get their points across without coming off as embarrassing. |
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Post by scarpia on May 5, 2022 11:48:51 GMT
Thank you, I appreciate the trouble you've taken to highlight these resources. There are a number of resources in your list which I haven't come across so this is useful for me. I have read the books by Michael Walsh, John Snelson and Michael Coveney, none of which I liked. I didn't think there was anything in these books that was particularly negative about his character, though, but I may have overlooked something? Perhaps you were including these for context / background? I don't agree with you that Michael Walsh is a "fan". He seemed like he was posturing to me, he comes across as a show off, his tone condescending towards the composer throughout (whether he was praising or criticizing him). It's an enjoyable read, I admit, but he is wrong about so many things, arguing for example that "Vaults of Heaven" is a rip off of the Jurassic Park theme. Really? Because there's a phrase in each which bears resemblance? And this is a contradiction to his earlier defense of ALW from accusations of plagiarism by others which were less egregious than his. Many of his arguments are beyond stupid, suggesting that the version of M&R for Broadway is melodically superior to the original (when the reverse is actually true), lambasting WDTW for fairly minor details of local accuracy in a review that has no substance or interest whatsoever, criticising Skimbleshanks for transitioning into 4/4 when this is to a large extent determined by the meter of the verse. I couldn't imagine a better musical setting of that poem actually. I could go on and on. Snelson's critical evaluations are superior to Walsh's, he seems to know what he's talking about for the most part, but he spends too much valuable space defending the composer, for example mounting an elaborate defense against the plagiarism accusation in MOTN with reference to parallels between Phantom and Christine and Puccini's protagonists, which doesn't work anyway since the melody was originally composed for another show. All he needed to say was that a single phrase doesn't warrant accusations of plagiarism in music (or we should accuse Bernstein of the same in West Side Story, to use just one example). Michael Coveney comes across as a total sychophant in his awful book, the worst of the lot by far. It's so bad it's not even worth talking about. Re reviews, I was referring to the reviews of the CATS movie, not the Phantom movie. I think Walsh, Citron, and even Coveney (who I agree is sycophantic when it comes to anything ALW - but check out the bit in there about what David Cullen says about orchestrations) have enough in their books to reveal a few things about how he cuts people off once he has no use for them. Have a look again at them...I remember the chapter in Walsh about ALW appearing on one of the (several) This is Your Life episodes at the New London (which is how he got to know the theatre and thought of it for Cats) being quite revealing. Maybe do an index search for some of those who worked with him, e.g. Brian Brolly and Biddy Hayward? They also stress how his spiel about not being good on the business side of things and only caring about composing is just a front, and that actually he is very into the business side of things. Jonathan Mantle talks a lot about ALW's 'art of self-promotion'. In fairness I'm not sure how much of my impression of ALW comes from these books and from my own/others' interactions with him. IMHO Walsh was fair in his book and yes, I'd still call him a fan of ALW even though he clearly hated Whistle. He's done several pieces since in praise of ALW and was one of the only voices in the 80s/90s defending ALW against the critical establishment and American detractors. I agree that Snelson's analysis is sometimes patchy re the plagiarism defence. He defends a lift from Prokofiev in Aspects because he decides that is George's theme (George being a forger of painters), but given that theme is then used indiscriminately in various non-counterfeiting situations by various other characters, that justification doesn't really hold up. |
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Post by spathzthecat on May 6, 2022 8:27:29 GMT
Saw the show last Saturday Afternoon, lots of swings on, seemed ok to me, wanted to see Emma Harris but she was off to.
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Post by Oliver on May 6, 2022 16:54:29 GMT
Thank you, I appreciate the trouble you've taken to highlight these resources. There are a number of resources in your list which I haven't come across so this is useful for me. I have read the books by Michael Walsh, John Snelson and Michael Coveney, none of which I liked. I didn't think there was anything in these books that was particularly negative about his character, though, but I may have overlooked something? Perhaps you were including these for context / background? I don't agree with you that Michael Walsh is a "fan". He seemed like he was posturing to me, he comes across as a show off, his tone condescending towards the composer throughout (whether he was praising or criticizing him). It's an enjoyable read, I admit, but he is wrong about so many things, arguing for example that "Vaults of Heaven" is a rip off of the Jurassic Park theme. Really? Because there's a phrase in each which bears resemblance? And this is a contradiction to his earlier defense of ALW from accusations of plagiarism by others which were less egregious than his. Many of his arguments are beyond stupid, suggesting that the version of M&R for Broadway is melodically superior to the original (when the reverse is actually true), lambasting WDTW for fairly minor details of local accuracy in a review that has no substance or interest whatsoever, criticising Skimbleshanks for transitioning into 4/4 when this is to a large extent determined by the meter of the verse. I couldn't imagine a better musical setting of that poem actually. I could go on and on. Snelson's critical evaluations are superior to Walsh's, he seems to know what he's talking about for the most part, but he spends too much valuable space defending the composer, for example mounting an elaborate defense against the plagiarism accusation in MOTN with reference to parallels between Phantom and Christine and Puccini's protagonists, which doesn't work anyway since the melody was originally composed for another show. All he needed to say was that a single phrase doesn't warrant accusations of plagiarism in music (or we should accuse Bernstein of the same in West Side Story, to use just one example). Michael Coveney comes across as a total sychophant in his awful book, the worst of the lot by far. It's so bad it's not even worth talking about. Re reviews, I was referring to the reviews of the CATS movie, not the Phantom movie. I think Walsh, Citron, and even Coveney (who I agree is sycophantic when it comes to anything ALW - but check out the bit in there about what David Cullen says about orchestrations) have enough in their books to reveal a few things about how he cuts people off once he has no use for them. Have a look again at them...I remember the chapter in Walsh about ALW appearing on one of the (several) This is Your Life episodes at the New London (which is how he got to know the theatre and thought of it for Cats) being quite revealing. Maybe do an index search for some of those who worked with him, e.g. Brian Brolly and Biddy Hayward? They also stress how his spiel about not being good on the business side of things and only caring about composing is just a front, and that actually he is very into the business side of things. Jonathan Mantle talks a lot about ALW's 'art of self-promotion'. In fairness I'm not sure how much of my impression of ALW comes from these books and from my own/others' interactions with him. IMHO Walsh was fair in his book and yes, I'd still call him a fan of ALW even though he clearly hated Whistle. He's done several pieces since in praise of ALW and was one of the only voices in the 80s/90s defending ALW against the critical establishment and American detractors. I agree that Snelson's analysis is sometimes patchy re the plagiarism defence. He defends a lift from Prokofiev in Aspects because he decides that is George's theme (George being a forger of painters), but given that theme is then used indiscriminately in various non-counterfeiting situations by various other characters, that justification doesn't really hold up. That's interesting to know. I was a bit unfair on Walsh in my post. While I do agree with the criticisms I made about his book, saying "beyond stupid" was hyperbolic and completely unnecessary. 'Misguided' would have been a more appropriate term. |
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Post by inthenose on May 7, 2022 8:00:28 GMT
Hearing things about the end of the booking period, which coincides with several creatives contracts. This show isn't doing well. Panic stations.
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Post by richey on May 7, 2022 8:33:43 GMT
Hearing things about the end of the booking period, which coincides with several creatives contracts. This show isn't doing well. Panic stations. Sadly I think you may be right. I've been looking at seeing it again when I'm in London at the end of August and just looking at what's available for that week (which is a Bank Holiday week) most nights have sold less than a hundred tickets. |
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Post by A.Ham on May 7, 2022 8:39:16 GMT
Ultimately of all the London shows, it’s probably the one that relies most heavily on international tourism. Just a sample of one performance I know, but when I saw it pre-pandemic, there were lots of Americans, Chinese and Japanese tourists in.
I’m assuming those tourists still aren’t back in London in their pre-pandemic numbers, so add that to the general lack of enthusiasm about the revamp, which might mean the Phans aren’t making as many repeat visits, and it’s no wonder it’s struggling. Would be tragic if it closed, given the reasons would be at least partly attributable to Cameron and ALW’s greed.
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Post by inthenose on May 7, 2022 8:41:33 GMT
Hearing things about the end of the booking period, which coincides with several creatives contracts. This show isn't doing well. Panic stations. Sadly I think you may be right. I've been looking at seeing it again when I'm in London at the end of August and just looking at what's available for that week (which is a Bank Holiday week) most nights have sold less than a hundred tickets. I am very sad because it's the end of an era, but if there was ever the definition of being run into the ground this is it. |
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Post by inthenose on May 7, 2022 8:51:51 GMT
I really hope it extends just a bit longer, so that business may possibly pick up. Strongly as I feel about what they've done to the show, I still feel the West End is worse off without it.
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Post by og on May 7, 2022 10:59:38 GMT
That close to the opening anniversary date I wouldn’t be surprised if they try squeeze a few more weeks out of it, just to say it ran 36 years. Wonder if they’ll do a Cindy, extend booking 6 months, put creatives on a rolling contract; then pull it all when it suits.
Main question is how will they let the cast and crew know this time? Zoom, Twitter, text or perhaps the company will just turn up to a locked theatre one day.
And, of course, who/what will they blame? The cost of living crisis? The war in Ukraine? The price of gas to heat the place?
Place your bets now.
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Post by Seriously on May 7, 2022 11:09:50 GMT
If it did announce it was closing, I imagine there'd be a mass rush for tickets from people who haven't seen it before, and those wanting to see it one final time... so it'd probably need to extend anyway.
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Post by interval99 on May 7, 2022 11:10:27 GMT
If they announced a closure they would have a avalanche of bookings for people wanting to see it there for the last time, taking family to see the show they saw with their parents years before, regardless of how theatre people seem to regard phantom for running so long it's very history means it has a bond with the general theatre going public who have no idea of the issues and changes.
If they announced a sudden short closure it would be extended quickly to cover demand.
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Post by og on May 7, 2022 11:14:14 GMT
Are Interval and Seriously one and the same? 😂
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Post by richey on May 7, 2022 11:14:33 GMT
Out of interest I've just looked at Les Mis availability for the same week in August and that's not particularly well sold either so maybe it's just a general problem with ticket sales
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Post by scarpia on May 7, 2022 11:47:51 GMT
I really hope it extends just a bit longer, so that business may possibly pick up. Strongly as I feel about what they've done to the show, I still feel the West End is worse off without it. I think the closure might refocus minds at RUG/CML. This show isn't going away for ever, it's too much of a money-maker and too well-known a property. We're agreed on our thoughts re the new production but frankly I think it's better to have the thing shut then masquerade (pun intended) as something it is not. The show closed in 2020; what's replaced it is a cheaper revival. |
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Post by fiyero on May 7, 2022 11:49:26 GMT
Out of interest I've just looked at Les Mis availability for the same week in August and that's not particularly well sold either so maybe it's just a general problem with ticket sales When someone said how bad Cinderella was booked for a random Saturday I compared it to Phantom and they were similar. While London feels a lot busier it isn’t back to normal. |
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Post by scarpia on May 7, 2022 11:50:36 GMT
Out of interest I've just looked at Les Mis availability for the same week in August and that's not particularly well sold either so maybe it's just a general problem with ticket sales When someone said how bad Cinderella was booked for a random Saturday I compared it to Phantom and they were similar. While London feels a lot busier it isn’t back to normal. Are Phantom and Poppins still only doing 7 performances a week rather than 8? |
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Post by sleepflower on May 7, 2022 11:55:08 GMT
Out of interest I've just looked at Les Mis availability for the same week in August and that's not particularly well sold either so maybe it's just a general problem with ticket sales I don't know if it's a Covid thing but I don't plan things that far in advance anymore. My family and friends outside of London probably wouldn't book something for August at the moment even if it means travelling and staying here. 6-8 weeks is probably the right amount of time to plan if outside of London. I was in central last night and it was definitely full of tourists so maybe sales will pick up soon, Les Mis certainly looked busy when I walked past. It would be sad if Phantom closed. |
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!) I think the bigger problem is the lack of tourists. 
