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Post by scarpia on Oct 13, 2021 21:44:42 GMT
Been to Phantom since 1989 and the cast that made the biggest and deepest impression on me was the Ramin Karimloo/Gina Beck/Simon Bailey trio. Real hold-your-breath moments during The Final Lair, real tears from Gina, believable emotions - everything lacking in the current cast, alas. Completely agree, never seen this cast bettered and they should have done the Albert Hall show. It was electric. I love JOJ as Valjean but have never taken to his Phantom. Similarly I love Earl Carpenter in Les Mis but not his phantom. See, if you replaced Karimloo with JOJ, that trio would have been total perfection for me. Gina Beck is by far the best Christine the West End has had in recent years (top notch singing AND acting) and she and Simon Bailey had such unbeatable chemistry. The rooftop scene was a treat especially when they were in it. I'm glad the old EPK captures some of their magic. Re resident directors, I don't think Geoff Ferris was particularly bad. The one David Shannon didn't get on with, IIRC, was Laurence bleeding Connor who was obsessed with ruining Music of the Night (and Shannon understandably resisted). Connor got to stage the scene with his weird concept in that ghastly tour, and no-one liked it. Thanks so much to couldileaveyou for the old article - fascinating! |
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Post by inthenose on Oct 13, 2021 23:47:33 GMT
Glad people remember how good Gina Beck was/is. My favourite Cosette too.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2021 9:02:27 GMT
Yes Gina is such an underrated talent. I agree, one of the best cosettes and also glindas. God knows why Sierra boggess seems to be deemed the ultimate Christine.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Oct 14, 2021 10:22:00 GMT
Yes Gina is such an underrated talent. I agree, one of the best cosettes and also glindas. God knows why Sierra boggess seems to be deemed the ultimate Christine. That will be her incredible Swedish accent maybe… 😏 |
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Post by longinthetooth on Oct 14, 2021 10:59:25 GMT
Gina Beck was my first Christine, and for me no one else has come close.
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Post by Dawnstar on Oct 14, 2021 12:19:55 GMT
Glad people remember how good Gina Beck was/is. My favourite Cosette too. I regret that I didn't see her as Cosette but the first time I saw her was in Phantom, & that was 6 months before I (finally) saw Les Mis for the first time. |
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Post by tom on Oct 14, 2021 16:06:58 GMT
Glad people remember how good Gina Beck was/is. My favourite Cosette too. I regret that I didn't see her as Cosette but the first time I saw her was in Phantom, & that was 6 months before I (finally) saw Les Mis for the first time. Saw Gina in Les Mis, Phantom, Wicked and Matilda and she was excellent in all. I agree with those that say the Gina and Ramin times were golden in terms of Phantom but my favourite Phantom and Christine are still JOJ and Rachel Barrell to this day. |
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Post by scarpia on Oct 14, 2021 22:38:16 GMT
Rachel & JOJ were a great pair. Rachel is definitely up there in top Christines. I loved her acting especially in the role with little touches I've not seen anyone else do, and at times I swore she sang that title song cadenza live on top of the pre-rec track.
JOJ in his first run especially was phenomenal. There was one time in the 2010s where (I can't remember why) he was paired with Gina Beck for a night or two because the usuals were out. I can't remember whether they brought Gina in and or brought JOJ in at the last minute. But I'd have loved to be at that performance. Those two are who I think should have done the RAH event. And if they did, they'd just get as much, if not more, adoration from the general public who would then go on message boards proclaiming them to be the best ever.
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Post by anthony on Oct 15, 2021 1:22:44 GMT
Completely agree, never seen this cast bettered and they should have done the Albert Hall show. It was electric. I love JOJ as Valjean but have never taken to his Phantom. Similarly I love Earl Carpenter in Les Mis but not his phantom. See, if you replaced Karimloo with JOJ, that trio would have been total perfection for me. Gina Beck is by far the best Christine the West End has had in recent years (top notch singing AND acting) and she and Simon Bailey had such unbeatable chemistry. The rooftop scene was a treat especially when they were in it. I'm glad the old EPK captures some of their magic. Re resident directors, I don't think Geoff Ferris was particularly bad. The one David Shannon didn't get on with, IIRC, was Laurence bleeding Connor who was obsessed with ruining Music of the Night (and Shannon understandably resisted). Connor got to stage the scene with his weird concept in that ghastly tour, and no-one liked it. Thanks so much to couldileaveyou for the old article - fascinating! Quite controversial, but Karimloo is so overrated. I've always found his voice to be deeply unpleasant, actually. It has a screechy quality to it and just sounds thin and weak. I've never really understood the obsession with him (and at one point, it really was an obsession for many people on social media!) |
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Post by couldileaveyou on Oct 15, 2021 7:43:27 GMT
See, if you replaced Karimloo with JOJ, that trio would have been total perfection for me. Gina Beck is by far the best Christine the West End has had in recent years (top notch singing AND acting) and she and Simon Bailey had such unbeatable chemistry. The rooftop scene was a treat especially when they were in it. I'm glad the old EPK captures some of their magic. Re resident directors, I don't think Geoff Ferris was particularly bad. The one David Shannon didn't get on with, IIRC, was Laurence bleeding Connor who was obsessed with ruining Music of the Night (and Shannon understandably resisted). Connor got to stage the scene with his weird concept in that ghastly tour, and no-one liked it. Thanks so much to couldileaveyou for the old article - fascinating! Quite controversial, but Karimloo is so overrated. I've always found his voice to be deeply unpleasant, actually. It has a screechy quality to it and just sounds thin and weak. I've never really understood the obsession with him (and at one point, it really was an obsession for many people on social media!) Agreed. He got better now, but he used to sing off key quite a lot |
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Post by scarpia on Oct 15, 2021 12:17:20 GMT
Quite controversial, but Karimloo is so overrated. I've always found his voice to be deeply unpleasant, actually. It has a screechy quality to it and just sounds thin and weak. I've never really understood the obsession with him (and at one point, it really was an obsession for many people on social media!) Agreed. He got better now, but he used to sing off key quite a lot Thirded. I know many who feel the same way. I wasn't keen on his Raoul or Phantom, to be honest; partly because of the off-key thing (that was particular bad at the Albert Hall, so I can only assume they autotuned that for the DVD/CD release), partly because of the weird North American sounds that seemed to jar with everyone else, partly because he acted too young, and partly because I just didn't buy his interpretation. I do have to thank him though for a couple of backstage tours at HM's back in the day. I've liked him in other roles; I thought he was a good Enjolras, and he was fine in the Sunset Blvd concert earlier this year. He's no doubt improved over time, and I think back then part of the issue was the lack of any formal training. I think ALW cast him in LND for the Gerard Butler factor (you know what I mean), despite saying later on that they "couldn't get away with a 30-something-year-old Phantom". And then he and Sierra got the RAH prize almost as a consolation for the fact LND bombed. Whoever had done the RAH event would have got instant adoration from everyone just because for many they're the only performers they know in the roles. |
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Post by Oliver on Oct 15, 2021 13:59:07 GMT
Agreed. He got better now, but he used to sing off key quite a lot Thirded. I know many who feel the same way. I wasn't keen on his Raoul or Phantom, to be honest; partly because of the off-key thing (that was particular bad at the Albert Hall, so I can only assume they autotuned that for the DVD/CD release), partly because of the weird North American sounds that seemed to jar with everyone else, partly because he acted too young, and partly because I just didn't buy his interpretation. I do have to thank him though for a couple of backstage tours at HM's back in the day. I've liked him in other roles; I thought he was a good Enjolras, and he was fine in the Sunset Blvd concert earlier this year. He's no doubt improved over time, and I think back then part of the issue was the lack of any formal training. I think ALW cast him in LND for the Gerard Butler factor (you know what I mean), despite saying later on that they "couldn't get away with a 30-something-year-old Phantom". And then he and Sierra got the RAH prize almost as a consolation for the fact LND bombed. Whoever had done the RAH event would have got instant adoration from everyone just because for many they're the only performers they know in the roles. How do you rate his performance on the 25th anniversary RAH DVD? He does seem to be off key at times here, too, but weirdly gets away with it. I guess there are strengths to his singing which compensate in the overall performance. I thought Sierra was wonderful as Christine even though she goes a little OTT in 'Wishing' and sharp. She's so much better than SB, though, never understood what people like about her. I guess it's just that she originated the role. |
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Post by carmella1 on Oct 15, 2021 16:20:06 GMT
Those 2 dvds made his career.
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Post by Dawnstar on Oct 15, 2021 19:34:46 GMT
Thirded. I know many who feel the same way. I wasn't keen on his Raoul or Phantom, to be honest; partly because of the off-key thing (that was particular bad at the Albert Hall, so I can only assume they autotuned that for the DVD/CD release), partly because of the weird North American sounds that seemed to jar with everyone else, partly because he acted too young, and partly because I just didn't buy his interpretation. I do have to thank him though for a couple of backstage tours at HM's back in the day.
I'm being nosy here but how did you manage to get backstage tours from an actor you weren't even that keen on?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2021 21:15:30 GMT
I'm guessing not telling him what you really think lol
I like Ramins voice, but for me it was his acting that got me. He is the only phantom I've seen where I've been moved and felt sympathy for the character. He wasn't just a 2d villain
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Post by scarpia on Oct 15, 2021 22:13:55 GMT
Thirded. I know many who feel the same way. I wasn't keen on his Raoul or Phantom, to be honest; partly because of the off-key thing (that was particular bad at the Albert Hall, so I can only assume they autotuned that for the DVD/CD release), partly because of the weird North American sounds that seemed to jar with everyone else, partly because he acted too young, and partly because I just didn't buy his interpretation. I do have to thank him though for a couple of backstage tours at HM's back in the day. I've liked him in other roles; I thought he was a good Enjolras, and he was fine in the Sunset Blvd concert earlier this year. He's no doubt improved over time, and I think back then part of the issue was the lack of any formal training. I think ALW cast him in LND for the Gerard Butler factor (you know what I mean), despite saying later on that they "couldn't get away with a 30-something-year-old Phantom". And then he and Sierra got the RAH prize almost as a consolation for the fact LND bombed. Whoever had done the RAH event would have got instant adoration from everyone just because for many they're the only performers they know in the roles. How do you rate his performance on the 25th anniversary RAH DVD? He does seem to be off key at times here, too, but weirdly gets away with it. I'll be honest and say I've never bothered to watch it, though I own it. Once live was enough for me as far as that production was concerned. I'm also still miffed that Cameron Mackintosh decided that the thing to film was this strange and sometimes lifeless staging (due to the venue constraints) rather than the actual production, which looks so much better on film than the pixelated LED screens at the RAH...just look at how much better the 2008 London EPK looks! But from what I heard on the RAH CD, it seems the bits I remember being him off-pitch have been mostly corrected, though you can still hear him doing really weird breathing at inappropriate places (see 'Down Once More'). Pretty much!  Separately, here's what the set at the Majestic looks like right now...so much classier and elegant. I am filled with jealousy that New York gets the real deal.   |
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Post by dazzlair on Oct 15, 2021 23:19:20 GMT
I'm guessing not telling him what you really think lol I like Ramins voice, but for me it was his acting that got me. He is the only phantom I've seen where I've been moved and felt sympathy for the character. He wasn't just a 2d villain I second that. A believable multi-dimensional villain instead of a pantomime one. Dave Willets was great too. |
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Post by dan28 on Oct 16, 2021 10:26:10 GMT
I totally agree with what has been said about Karimloo here. I am actually surprised that he passed the auditions for these roles at all. I don't know any other performer who "sings" so off-key as Karimloo does. There are whole songs where literally not 1 note is on key. Not 1.
The sounds he makes are also not singing, but clamoring, mooing. He bellows notes above the actual note. Which creates a completely new score. For example, in Phantom where Christine takes off Phantom's mask, there is this scene where the Phantom sings "secretly, secretly" twice. Which is all supposed to be on the same note, and very seductive and intense, JOJ does this wonderfully with an intense conviction and his vocals sound silky and almost hypnotic there. What Karimloo does there has nothing to do with the score or the show, he bellows these words hysterically and every syllable gets higher because of the hysterics and inability to sing on key, and then the 2nd "secretly", it gets even higher, resulting in a mess of 6 different notes.
The Enjolras scenes of the 25th anniversary are truly laughable to me, not trying to be rude here, but the howling is so over the top that it passes by all the believability or sincerity of the show. I also have the actual recording of the Phantom 25th at Royal albert hall, the one that was live streamed in cinema's, before the editing. That recording is truly horrific. Nearly not 1 of his notes in the show is on key. Only the pre-recorded title song. They did an extreme amount of auto-tuning for the dvd release, it really doesn't sound like the actual recording anymore, and yet, even on the dvd version there is still so much off key that I still find it unwatchable. But at least I can recognize the songs a little more on the dvd.
It seems like he doesn't have control over his voice and it always goes above the note. In some rare occasions, when he has to do a long, loud, straight howl at the end of a song, it happens to be on key here and there. But that has nothing to do with singing.
I feel like he should start over, take lessons and learn to sing from a more relaxed starting point. I really wonder what would happen if he learns that a more relaxed, silky sound has much more effect than what he does now. What I consider to be singing, beauty and effective emotions in singing is literally the opposite of what he does.
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42ndBlvd
Swing
I'll be back where I was born to be
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Post by 42ndBlvd on Oct 16, 2021 22:06:32 GMT
How do you rate his performance on the 25th anniversary RAH DVD? He does seem to be off key at times here, too, but weirdly gets away with it. I'll be honest and say I've never bothered to watch it, though I own it. Once live was enough for me as far as that production was concerned. I'm also still miffed that Cameron Mackintosh decided that the thing to film was this strange and sometimes lifeless staging (due to the venue constraints) rather than the actual production, which looks so much better on film than the pixelated LED screens at the RAH...just look at how much better the 2008 London EPK looks! But from what I heard on the RAH CD, it seems the bits I remember being him off-pitch have been mostly corrected, though you can still hear him doing really weird breathing at inappropriate places (see 'Down Once More'). Pretty much! Separately, here's what the set at the Majestic looks like right now...so much classier and elegant. I am filled with jealousy that New York gets the real deal. Looks like the floor has had some work done. Looks a lot shiner and clean than usual. |
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Post by 141920grm on Oct 17, 2021 7:36:51 GMT
Looks like the floor has had some work done. Looks a lot shiner and clean than usual. It's practically reflective isn't it? I'm a fan. After all, that *is* the usual, accepted, non-drastic method of reviving a tired-looking but much-beloved long-running show.  Swooning at every single set pic coming out Broadway tech rehearsals right now- looks gorgeous without even trying |
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Post by distantcousin on Oct 17, 2021 9:37:31 GMT
Been to Phantom since 1989 and the cast that made the biggest and deepest impression on me was the Ramin Karimloo/Gina Beck/Simon Bailey trio. Real hold-your-breath moments during The Final Lair, real tears from Gina, believable emotions - everything lacking in the current cast, alas. Completely agree, never seen this cast bettered and they should have done the Albert Hall show. It was electric. I love JOJ as Valjean but have never taken to his Phantom. Similarly I love Earl Carpenter in Les Mis but not his phantom. I'm so glad I got to see that trio in 2009! |
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Post by anthony40 on Oct 17, 2021 16:55:15 GMT
O.M.G.! I just found out that someone that I know- a friend of a friend- is in this current production as a swing and Piangi cover.
I (genuinely) had no idea.
Despite how many years that I have been going to see live theatre- both here and in Australia- I have never actually known anyone to appear in a live professional stage show.
I've known someone who's played in the orchestra, but never on stage.
I am well impressed!
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Post by TheWanderer on Oct 17, 2021 21:06:50 GMT
Visited yesterday for the matinee. My 2nd attempt at seeing the show..my 1st attempt being the performance that was cancelled due to the medical incident a few weeks back. I was desperate to see it the whole way through but left feeling underwhelmed. There was a show stop in the 2nd act (unforeseen circumstances) but resumed less than 10 minutes later. I suppose I have nothing else to compare the vocals to, so enjoyed the talent. I just can’t help but feel like the Phantom’s little gun ‘thing’ leaves much to be desired. It really kills the atmosphere.
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Post by max on Oct 17, 2021 21:28:03 GMT
It really is a show where a show stop will kill the atmosphere.
Notwithstanding some understandable/sensible jitters after a recent onstage incident, I have to ask:
How's the new set working out, since they threw out the old set that had been causing all those annoying smooth-running shows for 30 plus years, in favour of this 'better than ever' state of the art one that'll be giving Mischief Theatre ideas....
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Post by scarpia on Oct 17, 2021 21:50:14 GMT
We seem to hear of another show-stop virtually every single week. Is this because they're replaced all the experienced stagehands with young newbies, or because the new set actually doesn't work very well, or both? So much for making this 'for the 21st century'. I don't think the original had this frequency of stops at any point in its run (though hard to say, of course, given social media/the Internet wasn't a thing back in the early days...).
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