850 posts
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Post by stuartmcd on May 13, 2024 11:57:36 GMT
There are rumours that this is not about Nemo at all, and the voting was manipulated to ensure a neutral country (in the current geopolitical climate) won. make of that what you will! What a load of rubbish |
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Post by tal on May 13, 2024 12:13:44 GMT
Nemo was pretty vocal about their opinions, so I don't think Switzerland would be considered a neutral country in this context.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 13, 2024 12:27:47 GMT
Nemo and their performance was the definition of 'user friendly' gender expression, very little, if anything, to do with actual sex or 'sexuality' at all. Polar opposite to what Olly did. I didn't particularly enjoy either song to be honest, but the difference in approach was clear to see. Switzerland's failure to dominate the tele vote as they did the jury vote certainly alludes to an issue with public opinion, albeit in a minuscule fashion compared to how the UK fared! I thought Olly was wrong for Eurovision as soon as he was announced, but I do think he's a talented writer and producer, and it's a shame there wasn't someone at the BBC a bit more honest who could have directed the project better. The same song, but arranged for three+ vocalists (one of whom could have been Olly) with parts such as a canon to give a dizzying effect and the opportunity for harmonies etc. I'd include elements of a rotating circle/chain dance into the choreography, which IMO better reflects the musicality as well as the lyrics, and makes it more fun and flirty than sexual. Probably presided over by some clueless old goat (like me) at the BBC who thought “I don’t have a clue what any of this is but it’s what the kids want surely so I’ll just let his team get on with it” Problem is the “kids” or at least Olly’s peers aren’t watching Eurovision, no matter how big it gets its core tv audience doesn’t really get younger. You never see young Eurovision pundits, they're invariably middle aged and upwards men. The headline in the Pink Paper last week was “Olly Alexander plans to make Eurovision ‘as gay as possible’ – and doesn’t care what prudes think”. Well Olly, you made it as gay as possible and look what happened… nil points. And it’s not because people don’t like gay, it’s because they don’t like your interpretation of gay i.e dirty men in a dirty toilet. I see yesterday The Mirror is carrying a story about how Olly was bullied as a kid. Sure. Ok. |
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Post by crowblack on May 13, 2024 12:31:15 GMT
The win went to someone of gender non-specificity and wearing a pink skirt. I don't think conservatism was an issue. but essentially sexless. Yes, and dressed like a cute little pom-pom - a lot of the comments I saw online that night reminded me of that episode of Father Ted where all the old ladies want to mother the baby-faced singer and Mrs Doyle bakes him a jumper in a cake. It wasn't a sexually challenging androgyny, Bowie or Frank N'Furter style. |
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Post by ladidah on May 13, 2024 13:35:55 GMT
Nemo's song was great, they were easily one of the best.
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Post by theatreian on May 13, 2024 14:08:24 GMT
This is from someone who was at the contest re our performance:
"Re nul points for U.K. it was a really mediocre song to get any points you have to be in the top ten of a country’s voting that’s the way it works and it wasn’t a top 10 song - it didn’t chart here so why would we expect anyone else to like it. Compare to Sam Ryder two years ago! In addition his staging was too much ( too gay) for the more conservative countries- it also didn’t make sense in regards to the song. I feel gutted for Olly because he embraced the whole thing but the song let him down and someone should have said hang on a minute regarding his staging- trouble with bbc team is they live in a bubble and believe they are the best and probably over think things- they need to look at other countries and how they take it much more seriously and really think of the complete package. The song the staging and the singing all need to be top drawer - see Sam Ryder two years ago"
On a separate issue ratings also fell this year: Eurovision BBC Ratings (average viewers) 2024: 7.6 million 2023: 9.9 million 2022: 8.9 million 2021: 7.4 million
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1,319 posts
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Post by londonmzfitz on May 13, 2024 16:46:30 GMT
I was trying to figure out how Ollie's staging worked for the arena crowd. Kept waiting for a shot of the box from the rear of the arena showing how the crowd would view it. A four sided box - surely only those looking straight at it would get the full effect. Did it have solid sides so the side aisles would miss everything? Did it move on a platform? I don't think the song even registered, it was all visual.
I am (was?) a big fan of the West End Does Eurovision - reckon Book of Mormon could carry off Ollie's song if WEE ever resurfaces.
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2,760 posts
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Post by n1david on May 13, 2024 16:50:00 GMT
Not much allowance made for people in the arena, particularly at the sides - video here:
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Post by mkb on May 13, 2024 17:08:59 GMT
... in contrast for example to the increasingly phoney Waddingham ... I was lucky to see her up close at both the final rehearsal and Grand Final in Liverpool last year, and, unlike Graham Norton, she was anything but phoney. She was bubbly, clearly having fun, and continually interacting with the crowd between takes. She was joyous. |
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Post by mkb on May 13, 2024 17:10:44 GMT
Count me among those gay men who found the performance/staging of the song quite tired and stereotypical. Enough already with half naked dancers humping each other. It was tired over a decade ago and looked like a desperate way to package an already unremarkable song. Why can't gay performers do sleaze? I loved that staging. Female singers do it all the time. |
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Post by shownut on May 13, 2024 17:20:20 GMT
Count me among those gay men who found the performance/staging of the song quite tired and stereotypical. Enough already with half naked dancers humping each other. It was tired over a decade ago and looked like a desperate way to package an already unremarkable song. Why can't gay performers do sleaze? I loved that staging. Female singers do it all the time. Nobody said they can't. But some of us feel they shouldn't in the same way that a lot of women think sleazy representations, when performed ad nauseum, cheapens women and sets them backwards a few steps. I am not a prude in the slightest, but I am getting bored and irritated with those who identify as gay or Queer (and have a voice in media), always throwing the focus towards our sexuality as opposed to our humanity. We can't expect society at large to take us seriously if we don't take ourselves seriously. So to that end, Olly missed it by a mile. He, and the song, deserved nil. |
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3,040 posts
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Post by crowblack on May 13, 2024 17:21:24 GMT
Why can't gay performers do sleaze? I loved that staging. Female singers do it all the time. It's fine post watershed, Channel 4, theatre, cinema, whatever, but not on Saturday early evening light entertainment BBC One shows. |
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Post by alece10 on May 13, 2024 17:40:51 GMT
Not much allowance made for people in the arena, particularly at the sides - video here: I've heard people who were there say you couldn't see him for the 1st 2 minutes of the performance. |
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8,153 posts
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Post by alece10 on May 13, 2024 17:42:50 GMT
I was trying to figure out how Ollie's staging worked for the arena crowd. Kept waiting for a shot of the box from the rear of the arena showing how the crowd would view it. A four sided box - surely only those looking straight at it would get the full effect. Did it have solid sides so the side aisles would miss everything? Did it move on a platform? I don't think the song even registered, it was all visual. I am (was?) a big fan of the West End Does Eurovision - reckon Book of Mormon could carry off Ollie's song if WEE ever resurfaces. BOM's performance of "Ding a dong" was the best and campest performance I've ever seen at WEE. Oh I so miss those nights. I never used to get home until about 6am |
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8,153 posts
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Post by alece10 on May 13, 2024 17:44:18 GMT
This is from someone who was at the contest re our performance: "Re nul points for U.K. it was a really mediocre song to get any points you have to be in the top ten of a country’s voting that’s the way it works and it wasn’t a top 10 song - it didn’t chart here so why would we expect anyone else to like it. Compare to Sam Ryder two years ago! In addition his staging was too much ( too gay) for the more conservative countries- it also didn’t make sense in regards to the song. I feel gutted for Olly because he embraced the whole thing but the song let him down and someone should have said hang on a minute regarding his staging- trouble with bbc team is they live in a bubble and believe they are the best and probably over think things- they need to look at other countries and how they take it much more seriously and really think of the complete package. The song the staging and the singing all need to be top drawer - see Sam Ryder two years ago" On a separate issue ratings also fell this year: Eurovision BBC Ratings (average viewers) 2024: 7.6 million 2023: 9.9 million 2022: 8.9 million 2021: 7.4 million And I think that most of the Eastern block countries can be considered Conservative and that's an awful lot of potential voters. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 13, 2024 18:03:16 GMT
I asked friends in Spain and in Portugal how Nemo was referred to in the broadcast. It was “he” because those languages don’t allow for anything but masculine or feminine. I’m told the commentary focussed on the song and performance and nothing more.
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5,837 posts
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Post by oxfordsimon on May 13, 2024 18:27:02 GMT
Loreen won last year with a performance that excluded the audience in the hall due to the design.
And it is the TV audience that votes in their millions rather the thousands in the venue.
I thought it was a really striking visual presentation. And designed to impact on the audience that matters.
They clearly didn't respond. But I don't think the staging caused that by being television focused
The explicit sexuality may well have put off some. But politics is likely to have done more.
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Post by NorthernAlien on May 13, 2024 19:05:21 GMT
Look, I like Olly, and the song is alright - more importantly, it will almost certainly become a 'dance floor filla' in the clubs this summer, and earn Olly a shed-load of royalties on an ongoing basis. One of the songs from 2022 that was, IIRC, barely even in the top 10 is on *heavy* rotation on the system at my Uni, and I'm aware that said song has accrued a huge number of streams etc, so you don't *always* have to win or place on the night to reap success.
That said, I feel like Olly's presentation of the song was just wrong - I've watched the bts documentary thing that's on iPlayer, and it's not clear whether he was ever able to give his creative input, or if other people decided how they wanted to stage it, and Olly just had to slot in. If you listen to the lyrics, it's about that lovely warm fuzzy feeling of kissing someone at the start of a relationship, but the staging just absolutely did not reflect that in any way, and, as others here have said, was just very reductive - George Michael got away with a similar concept over a decade ago by doing it with style and panache, but that was then, and, crucially, George Michael wasn't competing in Eurovision. I've seen a video of Olly singing the song acapella, and honestly if they'd have dropped a verse of that in somewhere, and toned the whole thing down, it would probably have done a lot better.
But we need to start sending acts who have solid experience of singing live, without too much processing of their voices, and who have ground their skills - like Sam Ryder had done. IIRC, Sam Ryder was approached by Scott Mills, whereas Olly and Mae (2023) were the choice of the record company currently involved. Seems like we need to let Scott Mills organise our entry to be in with a chance...
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Post by londonmzfitz on May 14, 2024 11:33:54 GMT
Just saw this on Twitter (never calling it X) of Nemo's performance. Compared to the above, this looks like it would have been an absolute blast to watch from any angle, anywhere, in the auditorium. *edited to add, STROBE LIGHTING***
fug it, links to other stuff on YT. Google it, it's great.
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Post by jojo on May 14, 2024 13:20:45 GMT
I saw a clip of Olly performing on Saturday Night Takeaway and the staging was so much more interesting and fun. It couldn't be copied for a variety of reasons, not least I think Olly was miming, but it makes me sad to think how much better it could have been with better direction.
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Post by eliza on May 14, 2024 18:31:33 GMT
Nemo didn't win because of a political rig by the juries, they won because they had a great song and amazing vocals. It really stood out. Rock songs don't seem to do well with the juries so they were always going to prefer someone like Nemo to Croatia.
The UK's staging wasn't great but I don't think it matters that you couldn't see it much from the arena at all - Olly got one of the bigger reactions on the 2 nights I saw him despite not being able to see him properly. The vast vast vast majority of votes are coming from TV and those of us in Sweden had trouble voting anyway unless we'd bought Swedish simcards. His vocals were so dodgy, he's not a great live singer at all and I agree the whole performance was just too much. Plus I really don't think the song was memorable or stood out at all.
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Post by eliza on May 14, 2024 18:34:50 GMT
This is from someone who was at the contest re our performance: "Re nul points for U.K. it was a really mediocre song to get any points you have to be in the top ten of a country’s voting that’s the way it works and it wasn’t a top 10 song - it didn’t chart here so why would we expect anyone else to like it. Compare to Sam Ryder two years ago! In addition his staging was too much ( too gay) for the more conservative countries- it also didn’t make sense in regards to the song. I feel gutted for Olly because he embraced the whole thing but the song let him down and someone should have said hang on a minute regarding his staging- trouble with bbc team is they live in a bubble and believe they are the best and probably over think things- they need to look at other countries and how they take it much more seriously and really think of the complete package. The song the staging and the singing all need to be top drawer - see Sam Ryder two years ago" On a separate issue ratings also fell this year: Eurovision BBC Ratings (average viewers) 2024: 7.6 million 2023: 9.9 million 2022: 8.9 million 2021: 7.4 million Sorry for the double post but this is so right. Stop blaming politics and go back to sending someone who can sing live and has a charismatic stage presence like Sam Ryder. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2024 20:36:41 GMT
Look, I like Olly, and the song is alright - more importantly, it will almost certainly become a 'dance floor filla' in the clubs this summer, and earn Olly a shed-load of royalties on an ongoing basis. One of the songs from 2022 that was, IIRC, barely even in the top 10 is on *heavy* rotation on the system at my Uni, and I'm aware that said song has accrued a huge number of streams etc, so you don't *always* have to win or place on the night to reap success. That said, I feel like Olly's presentation of the song was just wrong - I've watched the bts documentary thing that's on iPlayer, and it's not clear whether he was ever able to give his creative input, or if other people decided how they wanted to stage it, and Olly just had to slot in. If you listen to the lyrics, it's about that lovely warm fuzzy feeling of kissing someone at the start of a relationship, but the staging just absolutely did not reflect that in any way, and, as others here have said, was just very reductive - George Michael got away with a similar concept over a decade ago by doing it with style and panache, but that was then, and, crucially, George Michael wasn't competing in Eurovision. I've seen a video of Olly singing the song acapella, and honestly if they'd have dropped a verse of that in somewhere, and toned the whole thing down, it would probably have done a lot better. But we need to start sending acts who have solid experience of singing live, without too much processing of their voices, and who have ground their skills - like Sam Ryder had done. IIRC, Sam Ryder was approached by Scott Mills, whereas Olly and Mae (2023) were the choice of the record company currently involved. Seems like we need to let Scott Mills organise our entry to be in with a chance... George was a legend who had sold however many million records then. Olly is nowhere near what George was commercially or creatively. |
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Post by ceebee on May 14, 2024 21:44:25 GMT
Look, I like Olly, and the song is alright - more importantly, it will almost certainly become a 'dance floor filla' in the clubs this summer, and earn Olly a shed-load of royalties on an ongoing basis. One of the songs from 2022 that was, IIRC, barely even in the top 10 is on *heavy* rotation on the system at my Uni, and I'm aware that said song has accrued a huge number of streams etc, so you don't *always* have to win or place on the night to reap success. That said, I feel like Olly's presentation of the song was just wrong - I've watched the bts documentary thing that's on iPlayer, and it's not clear whether he was ever able to give his creative input, or if other people decided how they wanted to stage it, and Olly just had to slot in. If you listen to the lyrics, it's about that lovely warm fuzzy feeling of kissing someone at the start of a relationship, but the staging just absolutely did not reflect that in any way, and, as others here have said, was just very reductive - George Michael got away with a similar concept over a decade ago by doing it with style and panache, but that was then, and, crucially, George Michael wasn't competing in Eurovision. I've seen a video of Olly singing the song acapella, and honestly if they'd have dropped a verse of that in somewhere, and toned the whole thing down, it would probably have done a lot better. But we need to start sending acts who have solid experience of singing live, without too much processing of their voices, and who have ground their skills - like Sam Ryder had done. IIRC, Sam Ryder was approached by Scott Mills, whereas Olly and Mae (2023) were the choice of the record company currently involved. Seems like we need to let Scott Mills organise our entry to be in with a chance... George was a legend who had sold however many million records then. Olly is nowhere near what George was commercially or creatively. The key difference is that George Michael could actually sing live, wrote better songs, knew how to put on a show, wasn't consumed by his own ego, was humble and was witty enough to parody his own life and sexuality through his art without being crude. Other than that, it's a legitimate comparison. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2024 0:35:26 GMT
George was a legend who had sold however many million records then. Olly is nowhere near what George was commercially or creatively. The key difference is that George Michael could actually sing live, wrote better songs, knew how to put on a show, wasn't consumed by his own ego, was humble and was witty enough to parody his own life and sexuality through his art without being crude. Other than that, it's a legitimate comparison. George was also a multi instrumentalist if anyone ever looks at what he played on his albums. I agree he could send himself up be it in his own videos or on a couple of Comic Relief sketches. I must admit that I wasn't the biggest George fan back in the 80's but relistening to his stuff after his sad passing made me realise how good he was. |
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