2,340 posts
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2019 16:50:15 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Oct 23, 2019 16:50:15 GMT
If Theresa May didn’t call a fatal election, we would have left by now, Theresa would be prime minister, DUP would realise they have been sold sown the river, when they realise they couldn’t have both Brexit and remain in the union. Good point, the Tory majority then was about 15 if we discount the Speaker and the Sinn Fein MPs who don't take their seat. Whether there would have been the defections from both sides we don't know. The SNP would have been a far bigger factor and the Lib Dems less so. But with some consensus I agree that an ordered Brexit could have been achieved by now. But Theresa seemed to undermine her Brexit Secretaries and thought she could get a bigger majority to perhaps become a later day Maggie Thatcher but she failed and once she lost the majority she was on borrowed time. The polls were predicting that she could get a 100 odd seat majority and with the lampooning of JC by the press and factions of his own party not agreeing with him she thought she could sweep back to power. Funnily enough called the election so she wouldn't need Johnson, Rees Mogg and the right wing of her party to get Brexit through. Quite ironic really
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5,062 posts
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2019 16:52:29 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Oct 23, 2019 16:52:29 GMT
If Theresa May didn’t call a fatal election, we would have left by now, Theresa would be prime minister, DUP would realise they have been sold sown the river, when they realise they couldn’t have both Brexit and remain in the union. When Mrs T came on telly and said she was holding an election you could have heard my scream right down the street. And my language which was unfortunate as had young grandson with me. 'What happened?' he said. Whatever your views, in or out , turn it all about..her decision was really really terrible. Many what ifs and If onlys...a nice PhD for someone down the line. You and Brenda from Bristol.
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5,707 posts
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2019 20:44:03 GMT
Post by lynette on Oct 23, 2019 20:44:03 GMT
If I understood the ref, PofL might I be offended? Don’t worry your humour lost on me, love
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2019 21:26:51 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 23, 2019 21:26:51 GMT
It was interesting to see news organisations on Twitter talking about things have 'come to a stand still' after the excitement of yesterday. They obv. haven't come to a standstill, it's just a reflection of the media's own addiction to it's hair-on-fire 24-hour cycle. The last Twitter feed I looked at was the BBC's Newsnight - they reckon things have come to "yet another" stand still. Well, apart from a possible election in Dec which appears to not count anymore.
How dare the political class not feed the frenzy on demand. No wonder half the country is three quarters bonkers.
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2019 21:27:27 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 21:27:27 GMT
If I understood the ref, PofL might I be offended? Don’t worry your humour lost on me, love Brenda from Bristol (2017 election)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 21:31:43 GMT
Whilst I’m here, and on the subject of media being manipulated, here’s Peter Oborne on Channel 4 news from earlier today on the way that Cummings and other ‘advisers’ are pumping out lies (and how the reporters on politics are falling for it).
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Brexit
Oct 23, 2019 21:43:50 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 23, 2019 21:43:50 GMT
LOL. He's right on the money. No one would come on and debate with him - says everything. Well done for calling out Kuenssberg.
Can I assume Oborne wasn't invited anywhere on any BBC news programming ..
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754 posts
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Post by Latecomer on Oct 24, 2019 7:27:50 GMT
LOL. He's right on the money. No one would come on and debate with him - says everything. Well done for calling out Kuenssberg.
Can I assume Oborne wasn't invited anywhere on any BBC news programming ..
He was also on radio 2 show earlier. It’s very funny when he actually names names (Laura K and Peston worst offenders) and the person interviewing him, in both shows goes “oh, I’m not sure we can say that” in a horrified way! It is exactly what we have been saying on here...basically allows Johnson to get out propaganda headlines that fill the newspapers with effectively Fake News. And allows him to “face two ways”, says one thing as “reasonable Johnson” and then briefs out another. For example the “photocopy” he sent of the letter to EU was not ACTUALLY a photocopy....same words, reformatted into different type face and spacing. Small detail perhaps, but Johnson wanted you to think all he had done was more slapdash, with no thought, dashed off in a second, insulting etc etc
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1,863 posts
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Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 24, 2019 8:39:03 GMT
Will be interesting to see how the setting of the length of our extension will be spun, will likely be blamed on the Benn Act which has a grain of truth but we do need to step back.
In a few months we are going to need to discuss a lot more complicated and divisive issues with our ‘friends’ in the EU.
We are going to need to get agreement on everything that makes up our GDP, imagine France don’t like our Animal welfare rules, Germany our finance governance, Italy our food standards ad-infinitum.....
Getting a Trade Deal with the EU will be extremely complicated with vested interests fighting for their corner as with Walloons blocking/delaying the Canada Trade Agreement and the agreement of the extension date is a precursor of this.
This is the real world once we leave the EU, starting from scratch with every nation in the World, all looking after their vested interests knowing the UK desperately need a deal as being on WTO Tariffs for a long period of time will make the UK less competitive and gives these Countries time to move their procurement / supply chain partners away from the UK which is already happening in Europe.
This is far from quick and easy, the only evidence of our future ‘Great Future Trade Agreements’ are with a few African nations with a trading value less than what Apple make in a year.
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311 posts
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Post by olliebean on Oct 24, 2019 15:01:54 GMT
I think even the likes of Kuenssberg are starting to get miffed at the amount of lying going on - I heard her yesterday describing a couple of things Johnson had said in PMQs as "not entirely true."
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1,863 posts
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Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 24, 2019 15:31:35 GMT
olliebean At some point the played must come to realise their position is being undermined by being perpetually shown up as being puppets when the truth finally comes out. Not sure we are there yet, but Kuensberg and Peston must at some point come to realise the gift of being an insider is only valuable if they are ‘leaked’ the truth and not the spin.
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Brexit
Oct 24, 2019 17:14:23 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 24, 2019 17:14:23 GMT
The difference, if it's the BBC - and whichever side on whichever issue - we are paying to be propagandised; once the presence (of impartiality) is revealed, you have to ask what is the point.
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Brexit
Oct 24, 2019 22:49:27 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 24, 2019 22:49:27 GMT
spell check! 'pretence'.
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1,863 posts
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Post by NeilVHughes on Oct 24, 2019 23:09:33 GMT
It’s a shame that potentially the BBC is the loser in all this.
Once impartiality is questioned the core value on which the BBC is founded is undermined why should it be considered differently from all other media companies with its unique funding structure.
Ironically political correspondents will likely achieve what Murdoch and the Barclay brothers couldn’t achieve.
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754 posts
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Brexit
Oct 25, 2019 8:36:28 GMT
Post by Latecomer on Oct 25, 2019 8:36:28 GMT
It’s a shame that potentially the BBC is the loser in all this. Once impartiality is questioned the core value on which the BBC is founded is undermined why should it be considered differently from all other media companies with its unique funding structure. Ironically political correspondents will likely achieve what Murdoch and the Barclay brothers couldn’t achieve. Never thought I would be watching Sky News over the BBC.....weird times. Has anyone else noticed that the BBC tries to explain things in very simple childish way these days....I would say “like Newsround used to be” but probably not to even that standard! I am sure it has “dumbed down”. I get the impression it thinks it has to, as the issue is complicated, but actually it needs less time on random interviews with people in the street and just clear concise reporting.
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Brexit
Oct 25, 2019 9:04:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2019 9:04:08 GMT
Personally I find the BBC news coverage to be, on the whole, rather excellent. I think any organisation that claims to be impartial will always be scrutinised and accused of impartiality, and whilst I’m sure there’s the odd slip up (considering how many employees they have) largely I find they provide an excellent service (I particularly like how it’s ad free - it winds me up when Sky News cuts to commercials).
I find their coverage on Brexit attempts to be inclusive of a wider audience: yes, some might think it’s ‘dumbed down’ but broadcast news shouldn’t exclude those without a greater political knowledge - including young adults that seem heavily invested in Brexit (rightly so).
Let’s not forget that Brexit seems to have captured an audience that normal politics doesn’t: a lot of people are following every step of Brexit that don’t usually follow politics outside of general elections. Brexit remains the biggest political issue we’ll ever see in our lives (unless we decide to abolish the monarchy) and it is right that the BBC presents news in a way that informs, educates and entertains all ages.
All that said - I’ve been watching some of the US news channels as I follow this impeachment stuff and frankly, I wish they could mimic that here. Although I grow bored of every US Senator referring to almost any man as an American Hero’.
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754 posts
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Brexit
Oct 25, 2019 10:20:20 GMT
Post by Latecomer on Oct 25, 2019 10:20:20 GMT
Young adults don’t watch the BBC news....if my 28 and 25 year old and their cousins (7 of them) and all their friends are anything to go by....they have long since switched off and get news from other sources....
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Brexit
Oct 25, 2019 13:20:33 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Oct 25, 2019 13:20:33 GMT
Personally I find the BBC news coverage to be, on the whole, rather excellent. I think any organisation that claims to be impartial will always be scrutinised and accused of impartiality, and whilst I’m sure there’s the odd slip up (considering how many employees they have) largely I find they provide an excellent service (I particularly like how it’s ad free - it winds me up when Sky News cuts to commercials). It's wonderful coverage if you are content with the status quo, after all the BBC has spent 50 years being part of the honing of this status quo - 'comfortably numb' comes to mind.
People in my ward have made 130% on their property in the 120 months of austerity (beginning in Jan 2008 - LB Lambeth data. On average prices: £400,000, unearned, untaxed). There has also been a 4-fold increase in foodbanks. The poorest people pay 8-9% of net income in Council Tax, the wealthiest typically 2-3% - a tax more inequal than the Poll Tax. 50 other things the BBC might have a sniff at but, no, lets chase our tail for three years going no where on Brexit.
Comfortably numb.
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Brexit
Oct 25, 2019 15:11:39 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2019 15:11:39 GMT
Young adults don’t watch the BBC news....if my 28 and 25 year old and their cousins (7 of them) and all their friends are anything to go by....they have long since switched off and get news from other sources.... I'm in the same age range and largely I do agree with you - the BBC is not the main source of my own news. However, when there is something new happening, something that is being monitored in the moment and happening live, the BBC is the place to view it or at the very least monitor their live blog on proceedings (which can be useful when you're stuck at your work desk). But my point is that the BBC needs to cater to all of it's audience, and my opinion is that - particularly where Brexit is concerned - it has done a great job of remaining inclusive. Certainly their political coverage in terms of implications of live updates has been excellent, as has their guest speakers. I actually think their Brexit coverage has been very digestible... even when the news itself hasn't been.
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Brexit
Oct 25, 2019 15:27:19 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2019 15:27:19 GMT
Personally I find the BBC news coverage to be, on the whole, rather excellent. I think any organisation that claims to be impartial will always be scrutinised and accused of impartiality, and whilst I’m sure there’s the odd slip up (considering how many employees they have) largely I find they provide an excellent service (I particularly like how it’s ad free - it winds me up when Sky News cuts to commercials). It's wonderful coverage if you are content with the status quo, after all the BBC has spent 50 years being part of the honing of this status quo - 'comfortably numb' comes to mind.
People in my ward have made 130% on their property in the 120 months of austerity (beginning in Jan 2008 - LB Lambeth data. On average prices: £400,000, unearned, untaxed). There has also been a 4-fold increase in foodbanks. The poorest people pay 8-9% of net income in Council Tax, the wealthiest typically 2-3% - a tax more inequal than the Poll Tax. 50 other things the BBC might have a sniff at but, no, lets chase our tail for three years going no where on Brexit.
Comfortably numb.
I think the key point to make here is that the issues you're referring to are not actually news stories, but facts and figures that once published and broadcast, have very little reason to tread over there on a weekly basis. They may be important pieces of information (I understand what you're implying) but that doesn't make them newsworthy. An ongoing story is always going to garner more screen time - particularly on the BBC - because a news story will always have more information released. Brexit is the perfect example of that, in that it is the gift that keeps on giving - it may appears that nothing is happening but a lot has happened to ensure that very little has happened (and that in itself is what makes it newsworthy). News isn't human interest stories and whilst I agree that a 4-fold increase in foodbanks is shocking, it isn't something a news station needs to report on more than once. Journalistic investigation is still largely an advantage of traditional print media and that is perhaps where the points you make should be reported on - where someone can be gifted the time and money to investigate whether there is actually a story behind the facts being reported. We all know the country has more than one issue but that isn't the BBC's responsibility to increase the social awareness of it's viewers (though their regional news helps with that). When it comes to reporting on Brexit, state events and national emergencies, the BBC I feel is still very much where the majority of people look to for a clear report on the facts. I do believe it remains impartial and that will always be it's advantage. But BBC News has always had it's detractors and has done from the very start - the BBC, for example, was only ever originally allowed to broadcast news after 7pm because the newspapers thought it would make them irrelevant (an argument they're still having, I might add, 100 years later).
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Post by londonpostie on Oct 25, 2019 16:23:43 GMT
The key thing about Brexit is you stick a microphone under anyone's nose and they fill air time. You have 650 people in SW1 who like nothing more than being seen on national TV by thier constituents - it doesn't mean they have anything meaningful to contribute but 24-hours news, in those marquees across from Parliament, loves them.
On any non-crisis day - at 7pm or 10pm - flick between BBC, ITN and Sky, and the first items on the respective channels is usually different, then follow down the order. The BBC prioritise Brexit because it's an easy narrative (from their pov), and becasue they don't work for the story any more.
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Brexit
Oct 25, 2019 16:57:34 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2019 16:57:34 GMT
The key thing about Brexit is you stick a microphone under anyone's nose and they fill air time. You have 650 people in SW1 who like nothing more than being seen on national TV by thier constituents - it doesn't mean they have anything meaningful to contribute but 24-hours news, in those marquees across from Parliament, loves them. On any non-crisis day - at 7pm or 10pm - flick between BBC, ITN and Sky, and the first items on the respective channels is usually different, then follow down the order. The BBC prioritise Brexit because it's an easy narrative (from their pov), and becasue they don't work for the story any more. But that is my point entirely - BBC News shouldn’t be working for the story. That isn’t the type of news it provides. I BBC still has investigative journalism (Panarama, various individual documentaries etc) but by and large it is print media and print journalists that have the time, luxury and resources to go and source a story, investigate it and bring it to the world stage. TV News is a totally different medium and reports the news of the day - it doesn’t make it. Reporting on Brexit in my opinion is in the national interest. When it comes to politics the BBC has always been the UK lead on reporting and I see nothing wrong with it doing what it does best. Frankly, it just sounds like you’re over it and are calling the BBC out for not being over it too.
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3,320 posts
Member is Online
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Post by david on Oct 25, 2019 18:19:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2019 18:21:32 GMT
Young adults don’t watch the BBC news....if my 28 and 25 year old and their cousins (7 of them) and all their friends are anything to go by....they have long since switched off and get news from other sources.... This is why the lack of advertising standards for political messages on places like Facebook is so incendiary. The way that lies are spread via social media is a real danger to democracy; that politicians themselves are now taking part in that free for all, is potentially changing the nature of such discourse completely. Sadly, most people seem to just fret about it when, for the sake of our political systems, we should be criminalising it and punishing any platform that does not police it. On Brexit, there has been too much faux balance from the BBC and not just that 90% of vox pops are seemingly held in the poorer leave areas at a time - midweek daytime - when they are inevitably going to find the retired in great numbers in a patronising attempt to paint the poorest as being the catalyst rather than the dupes that they have been made into. People should know that the phrase ‘Get Brexit Done’ is a lie, that there is still a transition period, the hardest part of any trade negotiations, haggling and making concessions on matters from immigration to food standards to who provides and benefits from healthcare and beyond. To the shame of all media, it has not been called out for the lie that it is. The media have been correct in reflecting that Brexit is all encompassing but they have been far too afraid to place it into an ongoing context, preferring to look no further than the next artificial deadline.
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Brexit
Oct 26, 2019 0:00:51 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2019 0:00:51 GMT
THere will be ongoing negotiations and I agree with Cardinal's points above.
I think the Brexit Bill needs to be sorted before there is any Election. If it cannot get passed and hits stalemate then have an Election. I do wonder if there might be some consensus to get it done to nullify Mr Farage's vote at the next election. This could be beneficial to both Labour and the Tories.
As regards TV political bias I've heard so many people say one side favours one party or the other I tend to discount it now.
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