|
|
Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 12:52:14 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 12:52:14 GMT
Corbyn voted REMAIN in the referendum and has gone on record as having voted that way. However you look at it (and I voted remain and would still do so and am still sad) about half the voters, for whatever reasons, voted to leave the EU. We cannot disenfranchise these people, it is not democratic. We have to come to some solution that works. I find the Labour reasoning completely rational on this issue. As for Corbyn, I find it hard to believe that people find him more of a threat than Johnson. Have people been reading too much inflammatory press? I can get that you may not like the man but seriously? Corbyn is playing a wait and see game. The vast majority of Labour MPs want to remain. JC's traditional socialist line of thinking may have originally been similar to that of Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner and not wanting to be in the EU. He has aligned these views but isn't so much of a Europhile as more Centralist Labour people are.
He is trying to balance what his core supporters feel, what Labour MPs feel and needs to keep Labour voters who voted Leave onside if he has any chance of a decent result at the next election.
Left Wing polices have always been treated with scorn by a right leaning press, plus they make plans they cannot pay for, the top companies may move away from the UK etc. Has he got the right talent in key jobs if he got into government.
I'm not a fan of JC but above is the fairest assessment I can give objectionably about him.
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 13:12:04 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 13:12:04 GMT
So I stepped in because I can’t bear seeing that vile man Corbyn lauded as the Messiah and somehow regarded as a better person than Johnson. They both have their faults and my personal opinion is that a Corbyn government would do this country far worse damage than a no deal Brexit under Johnson Re-read the posts - he is by no means being lauded as a Messiah. I made it very clear I dislike him and many of the things he has done. But my personal opinion is that if it is a straight choice between him and Boris, then Corbyn is undeniably the least worst option (and that is a deliberate use of language). I'd be perfectly happy if both of them were exiled from politics for good today, but given no other political parties get a look in, if I am forced to choose then I would have to choose Labour, because nothing a Labour government could conceivably get through Parliament (and by that I really mean get through the Lords) could be more damaging than a No Deal Brexit. |
|
|
|
Post by Nicholas on Sept 27, 2019 13:34:27 GMT
Ah, reasonable Mr Corbyn and his equally reasonable pals who do things like: Support the IRA Befriend Hamas Preside over a rise in antiSemitism within the Labour party and tried to deny it was an issue Think the likes of Venezuela, China, North Korea and Soviet Russia got it right Didn’t believe Russia could possibly be behind the Skripal assassination attempt Want to get rid of our nuclear deterrent Don’t value our security services Plan to ravage middle earners for tax to put money behind crazy socialist schemes that will do more harm than good I’ll stick with Johnson, thanks! We need to talk about this.
1) 'Support the IRA' - wanted peace in Ireland and, um, Thatcheresque behind-the-scenes negotiations to secure peace. 2) I think the word 'friend' was wrong. Granted. The intention of dialogue was right, but the rhetoric was wrong. 3) Agreed. This was bad leadership by him. I think this casts the largest shadow. See, he's not perfect. 4) No he doesn't. He believes in hard-left politics, not Gulags or starving your own people. That's a reduction ad absurdam. Criticise his left-wing credentials, sure. Don't pretend he believes in Gulags! 5) I want to come back to this. THIS isn't just wrong, it's dangerous, and honestly how dare you say Johnson is safer than Corbyn in this situation. 6) Wants to get rid of nuclear weapons, and use our position as fifth sixth biggest economy to prove it can be done to, say, Russia. Idealistic? Mebbe. Principled? Absolutely. Wrong? I'd prefer fewer global death machines meself. 7) Hmm. 8) Oh boy. Your wording there is... iffy.
Let's come back to Skripal.
Corbyn didn't say "It's not Russia". He said "Let's wait until we have a little thing called evidence, and then we'll judge".
Some bloke - I forget his name - instead barged in and said "Oh, it was Russia, we've got proof". When challenged, he said "Oh, sorry, I lied about the proof. We've got no proof it's Russia. Sorry!".
With this lie, Russian media was able to use him as an example of western Russophobia. Without proof, without patience, the English would blame Russia for anything. As proof did come out, we were still catching up from the fallout of this cultural insensitivity and mistruth.
Corbyn's caution would have seen justice for Dawn Sturgess, and when Petrov and Boshirov were found would have seen the law used well. That lie, on the other hand, dangerously made our later accusations seem futile and flimsy. Corbyn's questioning was safe and would have secured justice. That lie was dangerous and saw no justice for an English assassination. Corbyn's patience could have won us the moral victory. Instead, with Skripal and this rushed lie, we lost the media war.
Oh, I remember the person who told that lie.
|
|
952 posts
|
Post by vdcni on Sept 27, 2019 14:20:51 GMT
So I stepped in because I can’t bear seeing that vile man Corbyn lauded as the Messiah and somehow regarded as a better person than Johnson. They both have their faults and my personal opinion is that a Corbyn government would do this country far worse damage than a no deal Brexit under Johnson. But listen: nothing would make me happier than if the whole darn lot of them would stop throwing brickbats at each other and centre around a deal that delivers on the referendum. I’m not holding my breath though!! Given at no point did any of us suggest Corbyn was the Messiah you didn't need to say anything then did you. We made it clear we had issues with Corbyn but would take him over Johnson right now. I'm a member of the Labour Party but am only hanging on to take the opportunity to vote him out if it comes and I haven't voted Labour since he became leader but I would still take him over Johnson who has gone to the extent of trying to close down Parliament to produce a potentially disastrous no deal Brexit. If what you want is a deal then you should focus your ire on Johnson who is making no serious attempt to achieve one. |
|
4,156 posts
|
Post by kathryn on Sept 27, 2019 16:55:59 GMT
Corbyn is far too ineffectual to be as dangerous as Johnson is right now. I loathe both of them but I’d take Corbyn over Johnson right now.
At least until the various part machineries put forward a leader who is actually capable of providing leadership - moral and practical.
|
|
|
|
Post by basi1faw1ty on Sept 27, 2019 17:27:36 GMT
I struggle to go on Twitter or watch TV anymore due to the absolute mess the HoC has turned into. That day everybody returned to the House, all the shouting and chaos that went on was unbelievable.
I'm scared for the future, and I am starting to lose sleep over it.
I too despise Corbyn to no end (I despise all MPs tbh), but he would be a better choice than that idiotic blond twonk sat opposite him.
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 17:52:18 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 17:52:18 GMT
So I stepped in because I can’t bear seeing that vile man Corbyn lauded as the Messiah and somehow regarded as a better person than Johnson. They both have their faults and my personal opinion is that a Corbyn government would do this country far worse damage than a no deal Brexit under Johnson Re-read the posts - he is by no means being lauded as a Messiah. I made it very clear I dislike him and many of the things he has done. But my personal opinion is that if it is a straight choice between him and Boris, then Corbyn is undeniably the least worst option (and that is a deliberate use of language). I'd be perfectly happy if both of them were exiled from politics for good today, but given no other political parties get a look in, if I am forced to choose then I would have to choose Labour, because nothing a Labour government could conceivably get through Parliament (and by that I really mean get through the Lords) could be more damaging than a No Deal Brexit. Fair enough - though we do have to agree to disagree on the last point! |
|
|
|
Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 17:54:20 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 17:54:20 GMT
So I stepped in because I can’t bear seeing that vile man Corbyn lauded as the Messiah and somehow regarded as a better person than Johnson. They both have their faults and my personal opinion is that a Corbyn government would do this country far worse damage than a no deal Brexit under Johnson. But listen: nothing would make me happier than if the whole darn lot of them would stop throwing brickbats at each other and centre around a deal that delivers on the referendum. I’m not holding my breath though!! Given at no point did any of us suggest Corbyn was the Messiah you didn't need to say anything then did you. Please at least try to maintain a veneer of politeness, rather than being openly combative. Especially as people are grumbling about the way the parliamentarians are talking to each other! |
|
952 posts
|
Post by vdcni on Sept 27, 2019 18:08:05 GMT
It's tricky to maintain that veneer when people lie about what other people are saying and then call someone vile.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 18:32:05 GMT
Ah, reasonable Mr Corbyn and his equally reasonable pals who do things like: Support the IRA Befriend Hamas Preside over a rise in antiSemitism within the Labour party and tried to deny it was an issue Think the likes of Venezuela, China, North Korea and Soviet Russia got it right Didn’t believe Russia could possibly be behind the Skripal assassination attempt Want to get rid of our nuclear deterrent Don’t value our security services Plan to ravage middle earners for tax to put money behind crazy socialist schemes that will do more harm than good I’ll stick with Johnson, thanks! We need to talk about this.
1) 'Support the IRA' - wanted peace in Ireland and, um, Thatcheresque behind-the-scenes negotiations to secure peace. 2) I think the word 'friend' was wrong. Granted. The intention of dialogue was right, but the rhetoric was wrong. 3) Agreed. This was bad leadership by him. I think this casts the largest shadow. See, he's not perfect. 4) No he doesn't. He believes in hard-left politics, not Gulags or starving your own people. That's a reduction ad absurdam. Criticise his left-wing credentials, sure. Don't pretend he believes in Gulags! 5) I want to come back to this. THIS isn't just wrong, it's dangerous, and honestly how dare you say Johnson is safer than Corbyn in this situation. 6) Wants to get rid of nuclear weapons, and use our position as fifth sixth biggest economy to prove it can be done to, say, Russia. Idealistic? Mebbe. Principled? Absolutely. Wrong? I'd prefer fewer global death machines meself. 7) Hmm. 8) Oh boy. Your wording there is... iffy.
Let's come back to Skripal.
Corbyn didn't say "It's not Russia". He said "Let's wait until we have a little thing called evidence, and then we'll judge".
Some bloke - I forget his name - instead barged in and said "Oh, it was Russia, we've got proof". When challenged, he said "Oh, sorry, I lied about the proof. We've got no proof it's Russia. Sorry!".
With this lie, Russian media was able to use him as an example of western Russophobia. Without proof, without patience, the English would blame Russia for anything. As proof did come out, we were still catching up from the fallout of this cultural insensitivity and mistruth.
Corbyn's caution would have seen justice for Dawn Sturgess, and when Petrov and Boshirov were found would have seen the law used well. That lie, on the other hand, dangerously made our later accusations seem futile and flimsy. Corbyn's questioning was safe and would have secured justice. That lie was dangerous and saw no justice for an English assassination. Corbyn's patience could have won us the moral victory. Instead, with Skripal and this rushed lie, we lost the media war.
Oh, I remember the person who told that lie.
Thank you for your polite engagement, Nicholas. In response I offer: 1. Invited two convicted IRA members to parliament weeks after the Brighton bombing, which targeted the then PM, killed five and left others permanently disabled. And his side of the House have the gall to complain about Johnson’s rhetoric? Much more detail on other actions here: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/19/exclusive-mi5-opened-file-jeremy-corbyn-amid-concerns-ira-links/ I've always thought it’s bizarre that a supposed peace campaigner so resolutely engaged with only one side of the conflict. 2. The use of the word was wrong, and again I have to query the commitment of a guy who says he sues for peace but somehow manages to hang out with so many anti-Semites. (see also 3) Oops! 4. It was the policies that led to the gulags and the starving! We’ve already seen a slightly suspicious ‘vote’ at Labour conference, and Momentum gearing up to shut down centrist student supporters and deselect MPs who aren’t quite hard left enough. Striking similarities to the regimes in the above-named countries and the loonies who enable(d) them. 5. At the time of the attack on the Skripals, I think there were about two people in the country who didn’t think it was the Russians. Corbyn and Milne. Who else did they think would try to kill a former Russian spy, with a weapon well known to be manufactured in that territory? Particularly after the earlier attack on Litvinenko on British soil? Clearly it had to be the restaurant chef after they criticised the pizza… And I don't accept that we lost the media war. Against whom, propagandist RT? Well, I think I can live with that! 6. We’ll agree to disagree. For me, Russian sabre-rattling (see 5 above, and the multiple incursions into British territory by their planes/subs) shows we definitely need Trident. Plus if they get rid of it, what’s going to happen to all those jobs up in Scotland? (Ah, but he seems willing to cut Scotland loose in a referendum if it means getting SNP support… not sure how all those who think no-deal Brexit will destroy the union feel about that?) 7. McDonnell (him again) has called for the disbanding of MI5 and the MOD. What with that and getting rid of Trident, we’ll all be speaking Russian in no time. Hope you have a Russian/English dictionary handy, comrade. ;-) 8. Who do you think is going to pay for all this free stuff the Labour party are offering? Lots of ideas being floated, I haven’t seen much costing yet. Reports say the top earners are hiding their money away – and those that haven’t yet are seriously thinking about it, now a socialist government looks a distinct possibility. The burden will fall on anyone who's earning a salary, I'm afraid. And don't let's get started on all the plans that will hit our pension provision! I could just about be persuaded a few of you would be willing to give Corbyn a shot at a ‘unity’ government for a short period and then call an election – but given the extent of the lying his side have also been proven to do, would you really trust him more than the Tories…?! If the answer is yes, fine. I trust Johnson and the Tories more. It's just another opinion. It's politics. They all lie. Like when they said they'd deliver Brexit... ;-) |
|
|
|
Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 18:39:23 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 18:39:23 GMT
It's tricky to maintain that veneer when people lie about what other people are saying and then call someone vile. Who's lying? Hyperbole is a common tool in debate. And please let's be very clear I only made that reference to Corbyn. Not to anyone on this forum!! And it's an honestly held personal opinion formed by growing up during the Troubles and living somewhere sectarian marches took place; studying the language, politics and arts of a country that suffered greatly under socialism; and studying the language, history and politics of a country where anti-Semitism led to the Holocaust. Not to mention having a job and, for some supporters of Corbyn at least, apparently the gall to try to better myself instead of sitting around on my backside complaining about how hard done by I am, blaming the government and demanding money for nothing. |
|
952 posts
|
Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 18:44:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by vdcni on Sept 27, 2019 18:44:10 GMT
I don't completely disagree with your view of Corbyn, as I've said, I just found you demanding civility over a pretty mild comment after you made a big thing out of something no one actually said a bit ridiculous.
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 19:15:10 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 19:15:10 GMT
Nigel Farage currently giving a speech saying it is ironic that a lot of those who hurled abuse and insults his way are those who are moaning about being called out now in Parliament. Also called Anna Soubry the most hated Remainer in the country.
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 19:56:27 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 19:56:27 GMT
I don't completely disagree with your view of Corbyn, as I've said, I just found you demanding civility over a pretty mild comment after you made a big thing out of something no one actually said a bit ridiculous. “You didn’t need to say anything then did you” is pretty combative where I come from. It denies me a right to state my opinion. But if you meant it to be mild, fair enough. |
|
1,863 posts
|
Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 27, 2019 20:41:07 GMT
Looks like Johnson’s downfall could be down to the perennial classic, the lure of a lustful interlude.
The Greater London Authority has referred Prime Minister Boris Johnson to the Independent Office for Police Conduct for a possible investigation into whether he committed misconduct in a public office in connection to his friendship with American businesswoman Jennifer Arcuri
The sad fact is, he will bluster his way through, his strategy to destroy decency in public life will be ably supported and facilitated by what was previously considered double speak.
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 21:04:05 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 27, 2019 21:04:05 GMT
Your first and third paragraphs seem to be at odds.
It's unclear that you understand people are allowed to have sex whilst in public office with whom ever they want?
|
|
1,863 posts
|
Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 21:14:06 GMT
Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 27, 2019 21:14:06 GMT
Sorry, failed to clarify, to facilitate his lustful interlude he has allegedly used public money as an enticement.
As you say lustful interludes are allowed, allegedly appropriating public funds to invest in their questionable U.K. business and inclusion in overseas junkets which they allegedly are not qualified for, are not.
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 21:16:58 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 27, 2019 21:16:58 GMT
Good. Clearer. "Allegedly".
|
|
1,863 posts
|
Brexit
Sept 27, 2019 21:21:06 GMT
Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 27, 2019 21:21:06 GMT
londonpostie , Did you see the poor Junior Minister who they wheeled out to defend the investment the other day in Parliament, he must have thought what he had done in a previous life to be chosen for this as his first appearance before the house, felt quite sorry for him especially when one of the Opposition stated we just googled her U.K. business site and we get a 404 error.
|
|
754 posts
|
Post by Latecomer on Sept 27, 2019 21:34:44 GMT
I know people don’t like Corbyn but I honestly fail to understand all the “sympathise with Russia” stuff. In the Skripal case he asked to wait until there was evidence before taking action....I think that is a reasonable action to take (do we all remember that dodgy dossier about the non-existent weapons of mass destruction that cause a war, people?)
And why does the Conservative party take money from Russian oligarchs with links to Russia (even wining and dining them with personal meetings that have been won at party auctions) and somehow it’s Corbyn who is the Russian sympathiser?
The papers lie. They slant things the way they want to. And who owns the papers and sets the agenda in this country? I know it’s hard to take but the trick of the rich has ALWAYS been to pit the poor against the poor. If the poor stood together the world might be a different place. I’m not asking for communism...I don’t actually mind the rich being rich IF everyone has a good basic standard of life - the right to health, food and shelter and self respect. And don’t say to me that everyone can get there if they work hard enough....we all know people who need more help than others and we should be compassionate enough to help them unconditionally. People should be able to live secure safe lives. And don’t tell me that Conservatives care about all this - the evidence I have from my own experience and eyes is that they talk about these things but then just take it out on the poorest and most vulnerable in society.
Open your eyes. The Labour Party is talking about morals and caring for people. If you hate Corbyn try and work out why you would let dislike of this man make you vote for Conservatives who really do not care about society.
|
|
|
|
Post by londonpostie on Sept 27, 2019 23:01:05 GMT
I'm not sure too many fall for the smearing of Corbyn. It just sits better to use that as a reason to find him unpalatable rather than admit to yourself you'd like to hang onto all that unearned property and shareholder wealth Corbyn and MacDonnell might have a sniff at.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 23:52:02 GMT
Dominic Cummings’ three years doing we know not what in Russia, Aaron Banks’ multiple meetings with Russian contacts, Farage’s strangely close relationship with a Russian propaganda TV station, the list is much, much longer.
This is the modern, Russian kleptocracy. Not the long gone old communist state sometimes revered by very, very old Labour. The modern state being one that has done more than any other to destabilise the UK and, to troll us, by using our streets as a convenient murder location.
There is a problem with the word traitor being off limits. As with Trump’s mafia shakedown of the Ukraine, the problem is that the Leave campaign is up to its neck in connections to our most immediate enemy.
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Sept 28, 2019 13:14:49 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 28, 2019 13:14:49 GMT
Pass me the tin foil.
|
|
3,040 posts
|
Brexit
Sept 28, 2019 14:19:29 GMT
Post by crowblack on Sept 28, 2019 14:19:29 GMT
Btw, my cousin remarked that, driving up and down to London, the London area is full of billboards about Brexit. We don't have them up here. Is it more of a south-east preoccupation?
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2019 15:12:47 GMT
Either you are mumbling to yourself or you appear to be denying the role of Russia in destabilising liberal democracies and international organisations. You are interesting in your carefully concealed political position. Only an allegiance to academic apologists for right (and left) populism has snuck through. Anyhow, we left denial about Russia’s role some years ago didn’t we? It’s only who is actively, as opposed to opportunistically, riding the Putin tiger that is left in question. |
|
