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Brexit
Sept 1, 2019 8:43:55 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 1, 2019 8:43:55 GMT
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Post by d'James on Sept 1, 2019 9:11:24 GMT
I was there today and the mob out today looked 200% more appealing and definitely had a lot less space between their ears, than the ones 3 months back, that were out for Tommy Robinson. That time I was attending Killer Joe at the Trafalgar Studios, mind you some of the people protesting for Robinson, looked like they were lifted straight from Killer Joe. That's the difference though, taking to the streets not enough anymore. Nothing is enough anymore. The politicians with power just don’t listen. They got away with it under Theresa and now they’ve supercharged it. Look at the people in government; their past indiscretions just seem to have Ben wipes away. |
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Post by d'James on Sept 1, 2019 11:30:42 GMT
Before watching, play guess Michael Gove’s accent today.
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Post by olliebean on Sept 1, 2019 11:45:06 GMT
Gove there, refusing to deny that the Government will break the law.
This is about so much more than Brexit.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 13:28:32 GMT
Gove there, refusing to deny that the Government will break the law. This is about so much more than Brexit. Be wary of anyone who says that any of this is normal. Forget (if you can) the subject and focus on the process. If it helps, just replace the detail with something different, then you get a clearer view of how the current situation is. We have a government trying to block a parliamentary majority against it, led by people who are ready to break the law by refusing to enact any legislation coming from that majority. This went way beyond ‘normal’ over the last week or so. |
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Brexit
Sept 1, 2019 14:20:12 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 1, 2019 14:20:12 GMT
Gove there, refusing to deny that the Government will break the law. This is about so much more than Brexit. Or it's not. Perhaps it's a response to Michael Barnier - who holds no democratic representative position to my knowledge - saying yesterday that 400 million people will not negotiate with 65 million.
I don't think anyone would blame him for trying to protect a deal he negotiated but the terms of that deal are the reason Theresa May is not leader now. Whether Leave or Remain, it seems very few think the deal negotiated by Cabinet Office staff is acceptable.
These outbursts on both sides are part of the game, the real politic.
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Post by sf on Sept 1, 2019 15:11:05 GMT
Or it's not. Perhaps it's a response to Michael Barnier - who holds no democratic representative position to my knowledge - saying yesterday that 400 million people will not negotiate with 65 million. What else was he going to say? To the EU, this was never going to be a "negotiation", and nor should it have been. The EU is a treaty-based organisation, we were just as involved as anyone else in writing the EU's rules, walking away is OUR choice, and there cannot be an outcome in which we get a better deal outside the EU than we have within it. We're left with something between a sliding scale and a menu: the access we get to the EU's market increases in line with how much we choose to pay in and how many rules we choose to accept. If certain politicians had grasped this very simple fact before the referendum was called, we might have been spared three years of tedious, divisive bleating that was never going to lead us anywhere constructive. |
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Post by vdcni on Sept 1, 2019 15:57:29 GMT
In leaver world we're supposed to be able to do whatever we want and the EU should just bend over backwards to accommodate us.
We won the war you know.
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Brexit
Sept 1, 2019 16:27:33 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 1, 2019 16:27:33 GMT
Or it's not. Perhaps it's a response to Michael Barnier - who holds no democratic representative position to my knowledge - saying yesterday that 400 million people will not negotiate with 65 million. What else was he going to say? He was employed to conduct a negotiation.
The only reason he would have spoken yesterday was because EU Commission strategy determined to wheel him out. They got the response they fished for.
On we go.
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952 posts
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Post by vdcni on Sept 1, 2019 16:46:45 GMT
Yes the EU were deliberately trying to make Michael Gove refuse to state that the government would obey the law of the land.
What masterminds they are.
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Brexit
Sept 1, 2019 17:52:49 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 1, 2019 17:52:49 GMT
It is a hardball, real politic negotiation, not a Saturday afternoon wrestling match. Given the past three years, that can be easy to forget.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 18:18:01 GMT
It is a hardball, real politic negotiation, not a Saturday afternoon wrestling match. Given the past three years, that can be easy to forget. It isn't though - the EU isn't obliged to negotiate anything. The UK is desperate for a deal, so we are the ones who will have to compromise. We are exiting a treaty, they don't owe us a thing, so frankly the EU can and should say what they like. |
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Brexit
Sept 1, 2019 18:37:17 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2019 18:37:17 GMT
Looking more deeply, you sense Cummings’ love of game theory all over this. The trouble is that he is cunning but lacks humanity, so he can cope with big ideas not practical realities. Here’s an article which explains some of this and why he isn’t actually comfortable negotiating for any deal. Given that, this only makes sense if it is about creating an election win. theconversation.com/boris-johnson-must-change-his-negotiating-tactics-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit-eu-treaty-making-experts-122243There was also this in the last few days, from Unherd, which gives a different perspective as to why it is not about a deal. unherd.com/2019/08/dominic-cummings-is-no-chicken/The EU knows that it can afford to take a no deal, not just because they can overcome it but because the act of doing so creates the legend of the EU as being able to withstand what its enemies throw at it. The fatal flaw for the UK is Johnson himself, however. Completely unable to stay on message without playing to the gallery, he has already, as in the first article, tied his hands unnecessarily too tight. ‘Do or die’, ‘a no deal is a million to one chance’, ‘we will leave on October 31st’ and many more. The EU can now just let no deal happen if that is what Johnson is left with. Otherwise he has to blink and call a general election, one in which all those statements above will come back to haunt him. If parliament remove the option of no deal then you just cut out the middle of the process. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Sept 1, 2019 19:48:21 GMT
Or it's not. Perhaps it's a response to Michael Barnier - who holds no democratic representative position to my knowledge - saying yesterday that 400 million people will not negotiate with 65 million. What else was he going to say? To the EU, this was never going to be a "negotiation", and nor should it have been. The EU is a treaty-based organisation, we were just as involved as anyone else in writing the EU's rules, walking away is OUR choice, and there cannot be an outcome in which we get a better deal outside the EU than we have within it. We're left with something between a sliding scale and a menu: the access we get to the EU's market increases in line with how much we choose to pay in and how many rules we choose to accept. If certain politicians had grasped this very simple fact before the referendum was called, we might have been spared three years of tedious, divisive bleating that was never going to lead us anywhere constructive. Theresa May's red lines |
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Post by Phantom of London on Sept 1, 2019 19:58:11 GMT
What else was he going to say? To the EU, this was never going to be a "negotiation", and nor should it have been. The EU is a treaty-based organisation, we were just as involved as anyone else in writing the EU's rules, walking away is OUR choice, and there cannot be an outcome in which we get a better deal outside the EU than we have within it. We're left with something between a sliding scale and a menu: the access we get to the EU's market increases in line with how much we choose to pay in and how many rules we choose to accept. If certain politicians had grasped this very simple fact before the referendum was called, we might have been spared three years of tedious, divisive bleating that was never going to lead us anywhere constructive. Theresa May's red lines Blue, white and red lines. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 6:00:42 GMT
Gove there, refusing to deny that the Government will break the law. This is about so much more than Brexit. Indeed. What kind of precedent does that set? If the Government don't have to abide by the law, should the citizens? |
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Brexit
Sept 2, 2019 13:15:38 GMT
via mobile
Post by Someone in a tree on Sept 2, 2019 13:15:38 GMT
So an October general election?
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1,863 posts
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Brexit
Sept 2, 2019 13:41:31 GMT
via mobile
Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 2, 2019 13:41:31 GMT
If the opposition Parties have any sense they need to abstain or only agree if No Deal is taken off the table or an extension in place to claim back the time lost to the election.
This is still part of the Tory game to stifle debate and ensure a No-Deal Brexit.
The Government (Johnson) does not have the right to call an election only Parliament with a ⅔ majority.
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Brexit
Sept 2, 2019 13:45:18 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Sept 2, 2019 13:45:18 GMT
As Helen Thompson (POLIS) pointed out this morning:
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5,707 posts
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Brexit
Sept 2, 2019 15:35:05 GMT
Post by lynette on Sept 2, 2019 15:35:05 GMT
So an October general election? Bet they choose my birthday, a last minute kinda thing. |
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Brexit
Sept 2, 2019 15:37:14 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 15:37:14 GMT
So an October general election? Bet they choose my birthday, a last minute kinda thing. Currently set to leave the EU on my birthday! sh*te present that'll be. |
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Brexit
Sept 2, 2019 17:33:10 GMT
Post by olliebean on Sept 2, 2019 17:33:10 GMT
So Johnson outside No.10 just now, pretty much confirming (although not in so many words) that if Parliament legislates to force him to ask for another extension, he'll just break the law and not do it. I expect he has an election in mind so he doesn't actually end up breaking the law, although he also made a big deal about how none of us want an election.
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Post by n1david on Sept 2, 2019 17:39:24 GMT
Word from political journals like Kuenssberg and Peston say that if he calls an election "having been forced into it" then the election date will be on October 14.
A Monday election? Yet another political tradition destroyed by our madcap PM... Hang the heretic!
(NB, for the avoidance of doubt, as there seems sometimes to be a sense of humour loss in this forum, to which I am also sometimes susceptible, this post is intended to be humorous)
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Brexit
Sept 2, 2019 18:12:39 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2019 18:12:39 GMT
So Johnson outside No.10 just now, pretty much confirming (although not in so many words) that if Parliament legislates to force him to ask for another extension, he'll just break the law and not do it. I expect he has an election in mind so he doesn't actually end up breaking the law, although he also made a big deal about how none of us want an election. He’s desperate for an election, it’s his only get out now. I hope they adapt the no deal bill to counter that, although I fear that Corbyn is just far too slow to see this and react. Two main takeaways from today, the government are desperate to suggest that taking no deal off the table will stop the (non existent) negotiations and they expect to be given a ‘who governs’ general election. If the opposition are up to speed, they need to delay or deny one or both. I’d have them vote on taking no deal off the table only if Johnson doesn’t bring back a deal that wins parliamentary support by October 14th, this means that they are not seen to be stopping his (still non existent) negotiations. Setting a trigger would put the onus back on Johnson. Secondly I would delay a vote on an extension until after the EU meeting that week, this to make sure that they are made to own the whole process. Then, and only then, would I hold votes on what to do next, firstly on a referendum then, only if that falls, on an election. I fear that they will give Johnson what he wants, though. Doing so makes it possible that Johnson could squeak a majority for what he wants. |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Sept 2, 2019 19:05:22 GMT
Believe our voices were heard during Johnson’s address to the nation and he appeared flustered.
On my way home to see if true.
Initially wasn’t going to go to Parliament Sq today, once there a last minute collective decision to walk down to Downing Street which now seems inspired if unplanned as we did not know about the address until we had gathered at 5:30.
Here’s to College Green tomorrow which could be interesting viewing.
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