|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 13:13:33 GMT
There's something vaguely pathetic about all of those Leave-voters and campaigners who think that we can slap the EU around the face and say "we don't want to be in your sh*tty club anymore" and then turn around and "but actually we do still want all of the best bits at the best prices" and think that we can start to dictate what we want and we'll get it just because we're Britain. Someone perhaps should sit down with them and explain gently (because I imagine it will come as a teeny bit of a surprise) that *whispers* there isn't a British Empire anymore . . . .
|
|
4,156 posts
|
Post by kathryn on Jun 27, 2016 13:46:23 GMT
There has been serious discussion by people who are experts in constitutional law of what needs to happen for Article 50 to be invoked, and some serious suggestions that it won't happen at all.
It seems politically very unlikely to me, but who knows? A week is a long time on politics, the 12 weeks till we actually get a PM willing to invoke it could see a complete sea-change.
|
|
1,499 posts
|
Post by Steve on Jun 27, 2016 16:32:56 GMT
At the moment we are in the situation where people have voted on what they don't want. As there was no coherence or plan from the leave side, and I suppose naturally as they were a pressure group not a party, then there will need to be a confirmation vote for whatever is actually negotiated. I don't want or expect this referendum to be rerun as the result was because of the nature of it being as above. What I would like is the chance to vote on what we are eventually offered. Because again, if we are not, there will be years of people saying they were not given the choice and that has to be avoided in order to create some sort of definite settlement. So, a couple of years (maybe more if people really don't know what comes next) and a referendum on the proposals is necessary. The other option on the ballot would necessarily be re-entrance to the EU as it exists at that time (which is likely to have been reformed in a number of ways by then). The more I think of it, the more I think that a vote to accept or reject any proposals is necessary. I wish that would happen! The vote was about us telling each other stories (some of which were porkies) about alternate futures, without anyone having a clue what the future would really be like. If the future outside the EU is actually one of nimbleness, dynamism, re-integration with Europe, by and large, though not with all it's regulations, and greater engagement with the rest of the world, I could vote for that deal; But if the future outside the EU is isolation, trade barriers, irrelevance, nostalgia, tribalism, anger on the streets, poverty, then I wouldn't vote for that deal. Once Boris Johnson's government is installed (please let it be him) and at work, and presents us with a deal, at least we'd have a few facts and less bull to guide us, rather than the awful lies, damned lies and statistics that we have had to put up with. Nothing has annoyed me more than Michael Gove's "I think people in this country have had enough of experts," and the lemming-like lunacy of that! On another note, one thing that cheered me up was hearing something that we do brilliantly in this Country, which is topical irreverent comedy. The post-Brexit "Dead Ringers" half hour was a real relief to listen to, and laugh at, after all the recent stress. It includes a goodbye song from David Cameron, and some hilarious Boris Bumbling lol: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07glx81 |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 18:30:49 GMT
They dont have to envoke it, but as a democracy they are on dodgy ground if they dont, even if it was a small majority. However if the economy continues to plummet they may have no choice.
I think there was a certain number in the uk who still have this empire outlook, but we are in fact a small country and one of the reasons out economy was strong was the links to the eu.
Its becoming very clear the leave camp lied/had no idea what they were saying and its highly likely the leave voters wont get the immigration and political system they were after anyway
I suspect they will get round it all by calling a general election and then parties can campaign for staying in or evoking.
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 27, 2016 18:39:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 18:39:02 GMT
But that information isnt readily available to everyone, as usual people are assuming the internet is the answer. I think thats also part of the reason the majority of exit votes were from the older generations who dont use the internet as much, or at all 86% of adults in the UK had Internet access in 2015. 78% of adults accessed it every day or nearly every day. (Source: Office for National Statistics. I don't know what they mean by "nearly".) Some people may find it hard to verify information but 5 out of 6 have no real excuse for not trying. The information is readily available. It's not like it was twenty years ago when most people weren't online, most documents weren't online, and if you wanted access to official government publications you had to put a cheque in the post and wait for your order to be processed, assuming you were able to put a name to what you wanted to find out in the first place. Now it's easy: most governments have done all the hard work of publishing their legislation, statistics and reports online and making them searchable, and all we need to do is go and look at them. The only reason people don't do it is because they don't want their precious opinions to be threatened by inconvenient facts. I don't understand that attitude. I find it quite liberating when I've done my research and know what I'm saying is correct, even if it means altering my opinion, because then I don't have to worry about someone else being the person with the facts and using them to challenge me. My nan has Internet 'access' , has no interest in using it. Hell i have the internet but cant watch youtube videos without buffering for ages so dont ever bother anymore. Access doesnt mean use, and even those that do arnt necessarily into using it as a research tool. They will go where they are told to do the basics and fun stuff such as holidays. Youre obviously a spreasheet and stastic man so we are never going to agree, but there is a human reality behind what statistics and spreadsheets say |
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 27, 2016 19:18:05 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 19:18:05 GMT
My nan has Internet 'access' , has no interest in using it. Hell i have the internet but cant watch youtube videos without buffering for ages so dont ever bother anymore. Access doesnt mean use, and even those that do arnt necessarily into using it as a research tool. They will go where they are told to do the basics and fun stuff such as holidays. Youre obviously a spreasheet and stastic man so we are never going to agree, but there is a human reality behind what statistics and spreadsheets say You're stretching it a bit there. Of course not everyone is fully computer-literate, but the overwhelming majority of people are perfectly familiar with the online world and there are other sources of information besides the Internet. In the ideal case you go straight to the source to get the facts so there's no opportunity for someone to put their own interpretation on things along the way, but there are many online sources that are more readable than the government's papers and nearly as neutral. For people without computers the TV news channels are reasonably balanced, given that the news isn't their primary source of income. It's an astonishing claim you're making, that a significant number of people have access to what the politicians are saying but have no other source of information at all. The point I'm making is that when one politician says one thing and an opposing politician says something completely different there's no excuse for simply assuming that the person you agree with is telling the absolute truth, and you have a duty to make some effort to check out what they say. Otherwise you might as well just ask them to call in at the polling station and cast your vote for you. |
|
2,339 posts
|
Brexit
Jun 27, 2016 19:40:04 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 27, 2016 19:40:04 GMT
I heard on the radio, this morning that 9/10 UKIP supporters voted for out. I would love to meet the 1 UKIP member who voted remain!! That's not real, very funny though |
|
4,369 posts
|
Brexit
Jun 27, 2016 19:43:38 GMT
Post by Michael on Jun 27, 2016 19:43:38 GMT
Not sure if this has been mentioned on here already:
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 21:13:46 GMT
Roy Hodgson has resigned to spend more time with David Cameron.
|
|
2,339 posts
|
Brexit
Jun 27, 2016 21:44:11 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 27, 2016 21:44:11 GMT
Roy Hodgson has resigned to spend more time with David Cameron. Ha ha, Iceland 2 England 1. Take that Brexiters |
|
751 posts
|
Brexit
Jun 27, 2016 21:46:06 GMT
Post by horton on Jun 27, 2016 21:46:06 GMT
The England football team have certainly taken Brexit to heart!
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 27, 2016 21:54:29 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 21:54:29 GMT
The England football team have certainly taken Brexit to heart! But Wales has won through to the quarter-finals, and there's a Cardiff City player in the Iceland team, in another quarter-final. |
|
2,761 posts
|
Post by n1david on Jun 27, 2016 22:35:02 GMT
I heard on the radio, this morning that 9/10 UKIP supporters voted for out. I would love to meet the 1 UKIP member who voted remain!! That's not real, very funny though Lord Ashcroft's polls, which are the best info that we have on polling breakdown, shows 4% of UKIP members voted for Remain. lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/#more-14746Not 1 in 10, but still an interesting minority.. |
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 28, 2016 7:06:38 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 7:06:38 GMT
Like the 4% of Gibraltans who went for Leave. I'd be interested in hearing their reasoning too.  |
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 28, 2016 8:16:41 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 8:16:41 GMT
Nobody's going to comment on the fact that better-educated people tended to vote Remain? (It's almost certainly an artifact of the age bias, as these days most people stay on through university while in my parents' generation's time almost everyone left school at 15.)
|
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 28, 2016 8:39:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 8:39:25 GMT
Nobody's going to comment on the fact that better-educated people tended to vote Remain? (It's almost certainly an artifact of the age bias, as these days most people stay on through university while in my parents' generation's time almost everyone left school at 15.) You're right but I've also noticed everyone on my Facebook who voted leave that is around my age (20s) doesn't have a degree either. Not that you can't be educated without a degree but there's definitely a correlation. |
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 28, 2016 8:44:16 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 8:44:16 GMT
So what, to all the above? The referendum is done and dusted. Now the UK moves on, negotiates and leaves the EU.
|
|
751 posts
|
Post by horton on Jun 28, 2016 10:10:16 GMT
But- as has been said repeatedly- the referendum is not law. MPs must interpret it and act in the country's perceived best interest. The global reaction of the past few days has exposed glaring truths about the dangers of actually going through with Brexit. Now is a time for true leaders to lead.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 10:29:16 GMT
But- as has been said repeatedly- the referendum is not law. MPs must interpret it and act in the country's perceived best interest. The global reaction of the past few days has exposed glaring truths about the dangers of actually going through with Brexit. Now is a time for true leaders to lead. Given that the result was extremely close and the winning side distanced themselves from most of their claims and promises within hours, they might well get away with that. (Whether anyone will actually have the courage to do it is another matter.) It's not like the situation where my local railway company held a survey on converting a station car park to a two-storey structure, had a result of something like 98% against the idea, and said "We think it's for the best so we'll go ahead and do it". You don't have to act on public opinion but you should at least give the impression that you've noticed there is one. |
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 28, 2016 10:32:17 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 10:32:17 GMT
Like Boaty McBoatface.
|
|
117 posts
|
Brexit
Jun 28, 2016 10:34:31 GMT
Post by ldm2016 on Jun 28, 2016 10:34:31 GMT
Roy Hodgson has resigned to spend more time with David Cameron. Ha ha, Iceland 2 England 1. Take that Brexiters I voted remain.
I am half immigrant (economic as well)
Celebrating the failure of the England team (unless you're not English), who I happen to follow all over Europe with many other like-minded politically friends, because it might upset a few nutters who voted out not through a strong conviction but through ignorance is pathetic.
|
|
527 posts
|
Post by Hamilton Addict on Jun 28, 2016 15:44:23 GMT
|
|
1,499 posts
|
Brexit
Jun 28, 2016 19:18:47 GMT
Post by Steve on Jun 28, 2016 19:18:47 GMT
After writing one of the Sun's key campaigning columns last week in favour of Brexit, "10 reasons why we must vote Brexit," today Kelvin McKenzie says he regrets voting Brexit.
What an absolute disgrace that man is!
|
|
2,339 posts
|
Brexit
Jun 28, 2016 19:30:11 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 28, 2016 19:30:11 GMT
The England football team have certainly taken Brexit to heart! But Wales has won through to the quarter-finals, and there's a Cardiff City player in the Iceland team, in another quarter-final. Cardiff voted to remain so Iceland are ok |
|
2,339 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 28, 2016 19:34:40 GMT
Ha ha, Iceland 2 England 1. Take that Brexiters I voted remain.
I am half immigrant (economic as well)
Celebrating the failure of the England team (unless you're not English), who I happen to follow all over Europe with many other like-minded politically friends, because it might upset a few nutters who voted out not through a strong conviction but through ignorance is pathetic.
Did my username not give you any clues? |
|
