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Post by Phantom of London on Jul 10, 2018 8:39:54 GMT
Just announced, Jeremy Hunt as the new Foreign Sec. I’m surprised he’s moved from the Health brief. He's always wanted that job. It's always been reported that he's refused to leave Health unless he got that particular role. Due to ill health!!! |
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Brexit
Jul 10, 2018 10:06:15 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 10:06:15 GMT
The biggest problem of all, I think, is obviously that the EU don't want the UK to leave with a good deal, or a number of other countries will follow. On the other hand the other countries in the EU know that it's unlikely that the UK is going to be the only country that will ever leave, and they won't want to set a precedent that punishes any country that does.
(But on the other other hand (?) there have been times when I've wished I could walk into some of the negotiations and shout "Grow the f*** up! You're supposed to be adults!")
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3,321 posts
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Brexit
Jul 10, 2018 11:46:29 GMT
Post by david on Jul 10, 2018 11:46:29 GMT
Just announced, Jeremy Hunt as the new Foreign Sec. I’m surprised he’s moved from the Health brief. He's always wanted that job. It's always been reported that he's refused to leave Health unless he got that particular role. Never knew that. It’s amazing what you learn on here! |
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Jul 10, 2018 12:07:50 GMT
Their only thought seems to be us getting all the benefits of EU membership and none of the bits we don't like and just expecting the EU to roll over and give us everything they want. The biggest problem of all, I think, is obviously that the EU don't want the UK to leave with a good deal, or a number of other countries will follow. As a result, whatever the UK proposes is going to be blocked. The EU project is bigger than any individual country - so anything that would undermine the project as a whole will be blocked. Absolutely. This was obvious at the outset to anyone with half a brain. That's not quite true, I think - May set red lines that fundamentally clash with the EU project's red lines at the outset. So, the above point stands - anything that undermines the project is not going to be agreed to. If they'd managed to come up with solution that magically respected both set of red lines then it would have been accepted. They can't, because this is reality, not fantasy land.... That's Brexit In Name Only - we may as well be in the EU, only we have no influence and have spent a whole bunch of time and money getting ourselves less control than we had before. It was never going to fly with the hard-Brexiteers. The EU was always about ever-closer-union. It never claimed to be about anything else - that's obvious from the original literature. The whole idea was to get Europe so politically, economically, and culturally intertwined that we'd stop going to war with each other every few decades and be a consensus-driven political and economic power block instead. To get everyone pointing in the same direction. The integration process was slow and steady - starting with the EEC, the EEC was never the end-point or all that was being signed-up for. The disentanglement process should be equally slow and steady, if it is to be as orderly and not economically damaging to all involved. Unfortunately we have a bunch of numpties in charge who are more interested in their political skins than the good of the country, and who lack the political courage to face up to the reality that Article 50 was not designed to provide an orderly exit because no-one who drafted it thought they'd be silly enough to use it. |
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Brexit
Jul 10, 2018 12:29:29 GMT
Post by Mr Snow on Jul 10, 2018 12:29:29 GMT
Just announced, Jeremy Hunt as the new Foreign Sec. I’m surprised he’s moved from the Health brief. He didn’t want to move at the last reshuffle and actually got a beefed up dept from it. I suppose it’s a big promotion for him. I wonder if the NHS will be glad he’s gone? Hopefully he will do a better job than BoJo, but that wouldn’t really be that difficult. Well he's certainly well qualified having dismantled the NHS bit by bit for the last 6 years, now he can get to work on the UK as a whole. Could you please give me a few examples? I have somehow have missed the fact that the NHS is no longer intact. The NHS and Brexit have one thing in common. People will keep expressing their opinions of what’s going to happen, as if they were fact. Regarding the NHS the slogan is usually the Tories are GOING to break up the NHS. But apparently, it’s already happened. I despair over political arguments presented by both sides to day. Nobody seems to think through what they say because their supporters just bellow their approval and the other side just spouts its own slogans back. We have a tradition of first past the post. We have often had a narrow majority meaning the electorate have not given a clear mandate and as a result we’ve mostly had moderate governments, afraid to pursue radical ideas. But this time; first we had a Referendum that delivered a winner to one side of an argument effectively writing the agenda for the next term. The fact that vote was close, was further reflected when a narrow majority (once a ‘deal’ was brokered) meant the new government (whoever they might have been), are left trying to muddle through, afraid to take a strong stance on any possible position. It's impossible to negotiate or indeed refuse to accept a counter position, unless you are clear in your own mind what it is you want. The question asked in the referendum did not allow for such nuance. This is producing the worst of possible worlds. At this point it’s hard to see any deal that will be a workable compromise for all parties. I believe it’s because the arguments were not properly hashed out before the referendum and the muddle will take a generation or more to sort out. Very depressing. |
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Post by kathryn on Jul 10, 2018 13:07:55 GMT
the EEC was never the end-point or all that was being signed-up for A good point. Thing is, talking to those who remember, that's exactly how they recall it was sold to them - and what all the propaganda we had in school was saying. we have no influence and have spent a whole bunch of time and money getting ourselves less control than we had before. It was never going to fly with the hard-Brexiteers. True. Just to me, the idea that we use that as our Free Trade Agreement with Europe, and can just go ahead and sign others with the rest of the world makes sense. We get back control of our policies, but keep the goods moving in both directions. I see it as a pretty hard break, I guess. A very hard break that will do huge damage to many sectors of our economy, which rely on frictionless trade for just-in-time supply chains, because free trade is not the same as frictionless trade, and would require a politically unacceptable hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland and undermine the Good Friday Agreement. Of course, no-one who wants out of the EU is willing to listen and face up to these details - if they'd been willing to do that in the first place they would have realised why leaving was a very bad idea. At some point people are going to be slapped in the face by reality. It's going to be painful, and expensive. It's the fact that it's entirely self-inflicted that makes it so depressing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 13:12:28 GMT
But at least we'll be "getting our country back". And a blue passport.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 13:43:49 GMT
Well he's certainly well qualified having dismantled the NHS bit by bit for the last 6 years, now he can get to work on the UK as a whole. Could you please give me a few examples? I have somehow have missed the fact that the NHS is no longer intact. The NHS and Brexit have one thing in common. People will keep expressing their opinions of what’s going to happen, as if they were fact. Regarding the NHS the slogan is usually the Tories are GOING to break up the NHS. But apparently, it’s already happened. Sure. CAT & PET scans outsourced and other cancer screening contracts awarded to Allianz Medical. Virgin Care taking over numerous NHS care contracts in Dorset and Summerset. Every recently published bio/memoir from Medical Staff, most notable 'This is Going to Hurt' and 'When Breath Becomes Air', detailing vividly just how over-worked - to the point of destruction - the staff are. Theres three to keep you going. I highly advice you get reading those two books. |
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Brexit
Jul 10, 2018 14:17:06 GMT
Post by Mr Snow on Jul 10, 2018 14:17:06 GMT
Dear Mr Shusher. I may well get round to reading those books and I should inform you I live with someone who has been in the front line of the NHS for 40+ years. I can put you in touch if you like. Mr Hunt is not popular at all in our house, but then none of his predecessors during that period were either. The problems are apparent to anyone with ears and I’ve heard about them daily.
The NHS is huge – the largest employer in Europe e.g. – and the TWO examples you give are local. I don’t doubt Mr Hunt approved them (he was notoriously hands on) but I do doubt he had the time for them to be on his initiative. In such a large organisation other people get to make decisions as to what is best for their own specialty or geographical area. You apparently though know better than them, what should be done.
My point is you exaggerate to the point of meaninglessness and you’ve even twisted the usual sloganeering to where it can be demonstrated to be nonsense. If a few of your friends challenged you when you do this, you might start to work on solutions.
To help you here’s the definition of dismantle.
dismantle
dɪsˈmant(ə)l/Submit
verb
past tense: dismantled; past participle: dismantled
take (a machine or structure) to pieces.
"the engines were dismantled and the bits piled into a heap"
synonyms: take apart, take to pieces, take to bits, pull apart, pull to pieces, deconstruct,
People who talk about the NHS being “in bits” are insulting those doing the hard work that goes on daily allowing us to enjoy e.g. our longest life expectancy ever. It is to ignore the thousands of successful treatments that happen daily, just to make a political point. You are not helping anyone with this negativity. If you still think something that is the largest employer in Europe has been deconstructed, then you might get more sympathy from me if you were to argue he’s obviously inept as he’s failed totally to dismantle it (Insert smiley).
If you want to start a thread about what is wrong with the NHS then there’s one already in existence. I should have known better than to pick on your post to illustrate my point about sloganeering, as its distracted from the Brexit discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 14:29:56 GMT
Your patronising assumptions of me are grossly wrong Mr Snow. I'm not going to get into a bickering match over this, however. Suffice to say I have had a huge amount of first-hand experience with the NHS across England and Wales, all of which has influenced my opinion. On the subject of books, I guess you are not aware that Jeremy Hunt co-authored a book over a decade ago detailing ideas and processes for denationalising and 'replacement' of the NHS. |
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5,707 posts
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Brexit
Jul 10, 2018 14:34:56 GMT
Post by lynette on Jul 10, 2018 14:34:56 GMT
This thread is on Brexit. I know hard to separate political issues. Maybe go over to the NHS thread. Then we can all stand back and watch the horrors unfold. Not trying to be facetious people, but remember to keep the tone friendly. To be honest when it comes to the NHS we are all hoping the ambulance will get there in time, eh?
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Brexit
Jul 10, 2018 15:43:24 GMT
Post by Mr Snow on Jul 10, 2018 15:43:24 GMT
Your patronising assumptions of me are grossly wrong Mr Snow . I'm not going to get into a bickering match over this, however. Suffice to say I have had a huge amount of first-hand experience with the NHS across England and Wales, all of which has influenced my opinion. On the subject of books, I guess you are not aware that Jeremy Hunt co-authored a book over a decade ago detailing ideas and processes for denationalising and 'replacement' of the NHS. The only thing we can agree on he's had six years to do it Fact You say he's been done it (opinion) and I say it's still the largest employer in Europe (fact). Back to Brexit. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 16:18:37 GMT
But at least we'll be "getting our country back". And a blue passport. I've just renewed mine and will be very happy to flaunt my maroon passport for the next 10 years! And the sooner I get my Irish one, the better! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 16:22:00 GMT
A very hard break that will do huge damage to many sectors of our economy, which rely on frictionless trade for just-in-time supply chains, because free trade is not the same as frictionless trade, and would require a politically unacceptable hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland and undermine the Good Friday Agreement. In what way are they different? We can make goods entering and leaving the country as easy or as difficult as we wish. There could and should be no difference to that process on the 29th or 30th March next year, if common sense ruled. What rules instead is monolithic ego, which is sad. What I wanted was a world where we made, used and sold 1cm widgets. What we have at the moment is 27 countries telling us we must change to 0.5cm widgets, and we can't say no. We should be able to say yes, we'll sell them to you, but will keep on with the 1cm ones as well, for our own use and that of other customers. No offence to be intended or taken. That presupposes that whatever decision we do or don't make in terms of 1cm widgets leads to a thriving market in them, otherwise there's no point at all. If there is a thriving market creates, then it certainly does make sense, but I query how possible that ever is in economic reality. And also your 1cm widget situation won't happen in practice even if there's no deal. We're still a member of the WTO, so WTO most favoured nation principles will still apply, so in practice we still can't simply do whatever we please. Nor should we be able to, because that basically amounts to having your cake and eating it, which is not sustainable. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 16:26:33 GMT
It's the fact that it's entirely self-inflicted that makes it so depressing. It's not even entirely self-inflicted, it's 52% of the people who chose to vote inflicted. I certainly don't consider it self-inflicted as I didn't choose it and never will! I accept that it is the result of a democratic process, one which was as cleverly marketed and full of scaremongering as any other political vote, but that doesn't mean I can or have to agree with the result, particularly as it is my generation who will have to deal with the fall out of something the majority of us didn't want because a majority of those who likely have less time to live with this (and ironically have benefitted from the EU for far longer) decided to the contrary. |
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Post by kathryn on Jul 10, 2018 17:03:48 GMT
A very hard break that will do huge damage to many sectors of our economy, which rely on frictionless trade for just-in-time supply chains, because free trade is not the same as frictionless trade, and would require a politically unacceptable hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland and undermine the Good Friday Agreement. In what way are they different? We can make goods entering and leaving the country as easy or as difficult as we wish. There could and should be no difference to that process on the 29th or 30th March next year, if common sense ruled. What rules instead is monolithic ego, which is sad. What I wanted was a world where we made, used and sold 1cm widgets. What we have at the moment is 27 countries telling us we must change to 0.5cm widgets, and we can't say no. We should be able to say yes, we'll sell them to you, but will keep on with the 1cm ones as well, for our own use and that of other customers. No offence to be intended or taken. The devil is in the detail - the devil is *always* in the detail. The detail that you seem to be missing is that borders go two ways - we can make it easy for goods to enter and leave the UK, we can't force the EU to make it easy for goods from the UK to enter the EU and goods leaving the EU to enter the UK. Integrated supply chains across Europe reply on the different parts going both ways across the borders at different parts of the production process. At the moment we don't have 27 countries telling us that we must change to 0.5cm widgets, we are one of 28 countries deciding - together- that the standard widget size should be 0.5cm - and not 0.59cm, or 0.49cm. We are part of that process and have a veto over it. It doesn't mean that we can't make or sell 1cm widgets. It means that a 0.5cm widget will fit anything in Europe. Setting a standard means that we can sell widgets anywhere within Europe, not just within the UK, and everyone can be confident that they will work safely. Once we leave, the EU can decide to change the standard to 0.75cm, and we will have no say in the decision. We can ignore them, of course, it's just our own widgets suddenly won't fit machinery in the rest of Europe, which means we will sell less of them. |
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5,707 posts
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Brexit
Jul 10, 2018 17:54:23 GMT
Post by lynette on Jul 10, 2018 17:54:23 GMT
Manufacturers make all sorts of things for different 'markets'.
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5,062 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Jul 10, 2018 17:54:32 GMT
Their only thought seems to be us getting all the benefits of EU membership and none of the bits we don't like and just expecting the EU to roll over and give us everything they want. The biggest problem of all, I think, is obviously that the EU don't want the UK to leave with a good deal, or a number of other countries will follow. As a result, whatever the UK proposes is going to be blocked. That being the case, I'm afraid I do feel that the whole Chequers Agreement is a mere smoke-screen anyway. They could have written anything they liked, the answer would have been "no agreement" anyway and WTO will follow. Personally, I wish they'd all "grow up." It's so obvious that all that was needed was to say "nothing changes on trade between us, we just won't be subject to anything else unless we mutually agree to be" and leave it at that. Of course, we are then back to my first paragraph. The simple EEC that was purely about simple trade - that I knew as a child - was a wonderful thing, and if I could have voted for that alone, I'd have done so. It's the move beyond that towards federalism I can't stand. As Boris stated ‘we can have our cake and eat it’. The EU isn’t going to allow that, or anything that will give a bad deal to its member to accomadate British Brexitiers. I am not one who naturally would back Theresa May, but she has truly been handed a poisoned chalice, she would be damned if she does, or damned if she doesn’t. Speaking of Boris if Theresa went for the cliff edge with a hard Brexit, he would have resigned anyway, citing he wouldn’t want to risk British jobs. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 18:05:02 GMT
The referendum question as set was disastrous in a number of ways, the obvious one being that it enabled a choice to not want something without any idea of what was to take its place. That means that, without the replacement being further voted, on we will be in constant internal conflict for decades (probably until after I’m dead, which is a depressing thought). Another issue, however, is the practical one of expecting people to hurt themselves voluntarily. Politicians don’t want to carry the can for this so very little has been done as, if they do, they will own it. That need to escape the blame is what dooms us to get the worst possible outcome, one where it easier to try and pin the blame elsewhere.
I’d moved into a more international sphere jobwise some time ago and I’m thinking that one last job move before retirement is going to take me out of this country to live and work abroad. i’m losing the will to live amongst this shambles anymore.
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4,993 posts
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Brexit
Jul 10, 2018 18:11:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by Someone in a tree on Jul 10, 2018 18:11:57 GMT
Two more resignations
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2,340 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 10, 2018 19:20:21 GMT
Frightens the life out of me this. Yeah we all think May is the worst PM ever presiding over the worst government, but frightens me all this. What if one of the right wing nut jobs becomes prime minister. Worrying times this
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2,340 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 10, 2018 19:48:18 GMT
Just noticed Ben Bradley resigned. He was the minister who said the jobless should have vasectomies. Plenty of people lining up with a couple of bricks here |
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Post by kathryn on Jul 11, 2018 8:43:54 GMT
Look at the mess made about lightbulbs and light sockets, as an example. We didn't veto, and we put up with it, and it's a disaster on many levels. Products we consider safe, we can't use due to Europe, others we want to ban, we can't, due to Europe. It's not Europe's fault when the people we send over are too incompetent to do their homework properly and look at the detail. Or even - in the case of Farage and his mates - simply don't turn up to the meetings at all. It's a really good argument for us to engage with Europe properly, participate seriously in the process, instead of merely handwaving things through and then kicking up a fuss later when the unforseen consequences hit home. Good management is all about sending people with the expertise to look at the detail and anticipate the consequences, so they can be mitigated. This is why business absolutely despairs when people blithely say things like: So we make them for that market, better and cheaper than they can, and clean up that way It's pure Dunning-Kruger. You don't understand the details so you think it's easy. It's not easy - there's a reason why businesses are looking at the detail now and saying they'll probably have to move production entirely. They're not doing it for fun - it's not a cost-free process - but it is the least-worst option for them. At the end of the day we already have the best of all possible worlds with our EU membership. It's just a large chunk of the public don't realise that, because they've never bothered themselves about the detail - details are boring, and complicated, and force you to admit that you can't have everything you want all the time. |
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Brexit
Jul 11, 2018 13:24:55 GMT
Post by Jan on Jul 11, 2018 13:24:55 GMT
At the end of the day we already have the best of all possible worlds with our EU membership. It's just a large chunk of the public don't realise that, because they've never bothered themselves about the detail - details are boring, and complicated, and force you to admit that you can't have everything you want all the time. This is just a rehash of the "Brexit voters are thick" argument, personally I wouldn't presume to know what a large chunk of the public think. Paying a net contribution to the EU of £13 billion in order to run a trade deficit with the EU of £67 billion is plainly not the best of all possible worlds. Imposing 20% tariffs on fruit imports from South Africa helps neither us nor them and so is also not the best of all possible worlds. Running a frankly racist immigration policy in which overwhelmingly white immigrants from Eastern Europe are allowed free entry whereas overwhelmingly non-white immigration from the Commonwealth countries like India and the West Indies is restricted - even if the applicants have family ties - is not any sort of best possible world. Better for all of these areas would be to be outside the EU but with a comprehensive Canada-type free trade agreement with them in place. May's compromise Brexit plan will need Labour votes to have any chance of getting approved in the Commons - interested to know what all you Labour supporters would think if Labour voted that way ? |
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Post by n1david on Jul 11, 2018 13:45:29 GMT
Running a frankly racist immigration policy in which overwhelmingly white immigrants from Eastern Europe are allowed free entry whereas overwhelmingly non-white immigration from the Commonwealth countries like India and the West Indies is restricted - even if the applicants have family ties - is not any sort of best possible world There is a misconception that these two facts are connected. EU policy allows us to have our own immigration policy for non-EU citizens. There was a widely quoted belief prior to the referendum that leaving the EU would “allow” more Commonwealth immigration, but that was significantly reduced by the Coalition government unconnected with any EU policy. I have been involved for many years in bringing skilled workers into the UK and it became significantly more difficult to bring in workers from the Indian subcontinent after 2010. If the UK government wanted lots of skilled non-white workers to come to Britain, they could have allowed it without us leaving the EU. |
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