1,970 posts
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Post by sf on Dec 22, 2019 17:54:49 GMT
Not entirely sure what has been lost in a democratic sense; we will have a trading deal with most of mainland Europe (albeit now calling itself the 'EU' as opposed to the 'EEC'). For a start, if things progress according to the red lines set out in the withdrawal agreement, EVERY SINGLE UK CITIZEN loses the right to live/work/study/retire across about thirty other countries, and for no good reason other than to appease a bunch of racists and xenophobes and allow obscenely wealthy people to continue to evade their taxes. And leaving aside how depressing - no, not depressing, disgusting - it is to see people vote for their children to have fewer rights and opportunities than they did themselves, freedom of movement will end as a result of a referendum which has been proven to have been conducted illegally. That's unacceptable. |
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Post by danb on Dec 22, 2019 19:38:40 GMT
I would say “I can’t even”, but that sort of youth speak is reserved for an unexpected cover going on at ‘Six’ or Elphaba’s new riff. This is our actual country, how it is governed and run. I’m happy to share it with others, especially if it affords me similar opportunities in neighbouring countries. I’m happy to share what I have via taxes if it means those less fortunate than me get looked after. I have enough to live on, a home, a family...it is my children who will suffer as they are all just breaking into adulthood. They do not have trust funds unfortunately, so I expect to be putting them up for a good while yet. I just feel that people have been duped into thinking they’ll be getting a great big treat when in fact they’ll just be getting a much longer queue in Lidl cos Irene (68) is just putting her wrist support on then she’ll be right with you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 20:22:46 GMT
The natural order of things is that the old weaken and the next generation take over, caring for the generations they just left and those they will soon become. This lopsided preferment of the oldest is unnatural.
What we are heading towards is a massive generational rift. Do those currently gleefully pocketing their greater gains than any generation before them, and profiting more from a society that exaggerates their importance through a shift in demographics, really not realise what will inevitably happen in ten, fifteen, twenty years time? Climate, housing, freedom of movement etc, etc, I fear that the blithe ignorance over these areas and more by my generation and older is going to end very badly. We will (we hope) still be around then, which is what makes this short termist theft (and let’s speak plainly about what it is) so perplexing.
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Post by Nicholas on Dec 22, 2019 21:42:34 GMT
It isn’t an argument. It’s the law. I cannot understand and never will how we can refer to this as “the will of the people” when it wasn’t a legal referendum. I don’t care what you say or how you phrase it. It will still be illegal in years to come. It is a fact. Not an opinion or an argument. It’s like the earth is round not flat. However, perhaps we now no longer live in a democracy. Don’t see how we can ever lecture other countries unless we clear this up. I know...shut up, move on. Doesn’t make it right.
Firstly, yes I agree. We have democratic rules, and they were broken. Something should be done – well, something should have been done before. The SECOND we got a whiff of lawbreaking, we should have put Brexit on ice.
Here’s the problem, though. What you're not saying - and what almost no-one is saying – is that “People (THESE people) broke the law promoting Brexit”. What you’re saying is “The Brexit campaign broke the law”, or “Brexit was rendered illegal”. Weirdly, I think that passive voice has caused a dangerous relationship to the facts.
You see, I think there’s a form of cognitive dissonance here. There’s been a lot recently about the difference between a lie and bullsh*tting. Apparently, lying is where I say “It’s raining” on a sunny day, and I’m rightly called wrong. Bullsh*tting is where I say “Today they tell us it’s sunny, but don’t you feel the rain?” and I unite us behind one ideology – a false ideology, but as a belief cannot be a lie, it's bullsh*t. It's like the difference between saying “Scientists believe Climate Change isn't man made” (a lie) and “Well, can scientists be trusted on such a chilly day as this?”. OR it's the difference between saying “The chief exec of the NHS is wrong” (a lie) and “The people have had enough of experts”...
So, to the EU campaign. People didn’t vote because of lies the campaign peddled. People didn't FEEL they were lied to. The lies felt part of a belief system. Even if proven wrong, people still believe in the thought behind them, if not the facts. Will the NHS get £350 million? No – but it feels right that if we leave the EU we can spend more on ourselves. Are our bananas too bendy? No – but Brussels does control a lot of our rules and some of them seem crazy so it feels right to blame the bananas. Did the campaign overspending promote any flat-out lies? No – it promoted bullsh*t.
If there is an intervention tomorrow, and Brexit is invalidated the day after, and a vote occurs the day after – ooh, that’d make it Christmas! – Brexit would win by a landslide. Why? People wouldn’t say the invalidation was democratic UK law – they’d call it another intervention in the Will of the People™. This is why a lot of Brexit voters don’t mind the interference. They weren’t ‘lied’ to. You can’t lie about belief, and a lot of the Brexit campaign was based on belief, a bullsh*t belief. If I BeLeave in Britain, I don’t care who funded it. If anything, I’m glad that bullsh*t view was funded in the first place.
As such – especially as there’s no way in hell the referendum will now be nullified, but even if it is, that bullsh*t ideology won’t be – what I think we have to do is shift the conversation itself. We need to point out that the ideology behind the bullsh*t is wrong. We need to attach the illegality to someone. We need to stop using the passive voice “YOU were lied to” and start pro-actively saying “Boris Johnson lied to you”. We need to stop saying “YOUR vote was illegal and rendered invalid” and start saying “Boris Johnson’s illegality invalidated your vote”. Better, we need to show how unpatriotic, how undemocratic, how uncaring he was (they were) by accepting foreign money, by promoting their bullsh*t.
Frankly, as I see it, on the legal front yeah, we have to move on. On the ideological front, though, we’re only just beginning. And who knows, mebbe if we get that ideological front going (if we get some of that bullsh*t to stick), the legal front might evolve from there. Simply, stop saying “The referendum was rendered illegal”. Start saying “THESE ARE THE PEOPLE who rendered the referendum illegal”. Please use one very big name in particular.
For a start, if things progress according to the red lines set out in the withdrawal agreement, EVERY SINGLE UK CITIZEN loses the right to live/work/study/retire across about thirty other countries, and for no good reason other than to appease a bunch of racists and xenophobes and allow obscenely wealthy people to continue to evade their taxes. And leaving aside how depressing - no, not depressing, disgusting - it is to see people vote for their children to have fewer rights and opportunities than they did themselves, freedom of movement will end as a result of a referendum which has been proven to have been conducted illegally. That's unacceptable.
Here’s my contention there.
A large number of working-class people voted Leave. Did they take these opportunities away from their children? There’s a degree of privilege you need to work and travel abroad which many Leave voters don’t have. Austerity had already taken those opportunities away – Brexit felt like a vote for more rights, given how many rights austerity had stripped away already.
A large number of rich people voted Leave. Therefore they can buy their children Visas.
For working-class voters, that younger generation is already losing rights and opportunities. For Thomas, Samuel, Victoria and Isabelle, mummy and daddy can continue buying those rights and freedoms. The latter should make us angry in an Internationale way. The former, however, should make us angry at the country we’ve let Britain become.
Therefore to some extent there is a class thing. We need to resolve that. Europe is a luxury to some extent. We should address that. We should have addressed that a long time ago. HOWEVER, with 40% of children living in poverty by 2022 (WHY ARE WE IGNORING THIS?), it’s frankly disingenuous to say that a generation is making their children poorer by leaving the EU. Thank you very much, we’re making our children poorer using good old fashioned British cruelty.
So, if you travel vocationally, you need to have studied to that level, earned a job, readied your career, and saved up. IF you travel to secure a job, you need a certain amount of disposable income. If you struggle financially to take your family on holiday to the Isle of Man, it’s hardly taking an opportunity away to take Slovakia off the table. This disparity is something we should have tackled already.
A key example here is education. The long term impact here will be devastating – imagine being a historian and not being able to affordably visit Pompeii or Athens, a computer scientist barred from CERN, a geologist pining for the Fjords. How many conferences take place – in English, conveniently – in Europe?
All of that being lost is tragic – but if your local school is crowdfunding pens and pencils, trips to Europe are probably far off.
Did Brexit take opportunities away from a young generation? No – austerity did. Sorry, YES, Brexit has – but austerity got there first. Austerity, and the lax treatment of the working-class throughout the Blair tenure which led to the working-class being the natural victims of Tory austerity. Those worst hit by austerity are rarely given a voice, so we didn’t hear about the systematic destruction of basic rights like guaranteed shelter or a budget for food first-hand, and STILL don’t – whilst those of us NOW having our opportunities taken are the children of journalists, academics, Twitter-savvy gonzos – people with a voice. That opportunity to “live and love” in Europe is a namby-pampy pipe dream for most people, and really, is it a right or a luxury? The right to better ourselves, economically, educationally, sociologically, scientifically, in Europe is one that we SHOULD fight for – but one that’s already off-limit to many Leave voters, and still open for the richer Leave voters.
You could argue that working-class Leave voters took that opportunity away for a generation – but middle and upper class politicians took those opportunities away for a young working-class generation a long time ago.
(Incidentally, these are connected. Brexit became an ideology – a bullsh*t ideology – which was perpetuated by bullsh*tters like Johnson to the communities he was, and is, stripping rights from already. A nullified, illegal Brexit vote would make us happy – we’re getting our opportunities to visit Toneelgroep and the Schaubauhne back – but those people bullsh*tted too angry – they’re getting nothing out of it, but their democratic right to voice their opinion denied.)
Anywho, long story short, did people vote for their children to be poorer? For rich people it’s no skin off their nose – look at how many Leave campaigners are buying EU citizenship for their families – money talks. For working-class communities, our wretched country robbed them of these opportunities long ago. YES, we have made a generation poorer – my f***ing generation, thanks – but only certain brackets of that generation – my f***ing bracket, thanks. If I hear someone say “We’ve stopped a generation being able to live and travel and work and retire and love in Europe” once more I’ll scream. That’s always been a privilege – that’s never been an opportunity for 40% of children in 2022 in our viciously cruel country. It’s a more complex picture than that. We still have major problems to sort for a desperately poor generation, increasingly robbed of rights and opportunities on home soil by bullsh*tting politicians, back in blind uncaring Blighty.
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Post by londonpostie on Dec 22, 2019 22:17:10 GMT
That's a great read, love it!
Some would say the biggest bullsh*t slogan was the £350 million on the bus. Others might say the data shows the most successful slogan of the 21st century is the EC Commission's 'Freedom of Movement' strapline; a factual nonsense but beautifully calibrated to emotional invest key demographics.
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1,970 posts
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Post by sf on Dec 22, 2019 22:18:22 GMT
If I hear someone say “We’ve stopped a generation being able to live and travel and work and retire and love in Europe” once more I’ll scream. That’s always been a privilege Not the point. This government has been elected on the back of - among other things - a promise to strip an established right from every single UK citizen. That's horrifying, because if they're prepared to do it once, they'll be prepared to do it again. YES, austerity has also robbed people of rights and opportunities. YES, a lot of working-class people voted Leave. A lot of them didn't, too, the split isn't anything like as clear-cut as some commentators would like to suggest. Will losing freedom of movement affect me? Yes, in a first-world-problem sort of way: after years of being my mother's caregiver, I am finally free to choose where I live. I can work pretty much anywhere, but unless I choose to establish myself somewhere in Europe during the transition period I'll have fewer choices post-Brexit than I have now (and fewer choices even if I do, because residency in *one* country, in terms of work, is not at all the same thing as freedom of movement). I'm not rich, I don't have the sort of bank balance that can buy another citizenship, but I've got an education and a certain amount of experience and I've lived overseas before. If I choose, I can probably find ways to navigate this new world so that I end up where I choose. Someone like my nephew, on the other hand - 21, working-class, a very hard worker, failed by the education system, voted Remain - is going to find himself with fewer options than he has now. He has an aunt in Spain who he visits at least once a year (and she's not a stereotypical Brit-on-a-Costa); she runs a property business, he's worked as a labourer for builders and landscapers, she's told him more than once that there's work for him if he wants to go out there. With the best will in the world - and this is someone who is far cleverer than his paper qualifications would suggest - if he's going to have to apply for a visa, that door will close to him. It's not simply about middle-class people losing opportunities. Middle-class people are more likely to be able to find a workaround. It's a policy change that slams the door on a lot of people who don't have another way in, and to see politicians in Parliament smugly suggesting that this is a positive outcome for us is thoroughly sickening. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 22:54:50 GMT
Great post once again, Nicholas. The way that Trump is acting is, of course, the ultimate in bull*****ing (he’s a proponent of the ‘look at all this snow, what about that climate change?’ talk, for example). Even after trying to get foreign governments to subvert elections a heartbreakingly large number of people still see the Emperor with lovely clothes. You would think that such things would make people wake up but this suggests that, here and there, we need something more effective than just ‘the truth’, to prevail against this politics.
On the opportunities for the working class and free movement, one thing I would suggest is that, maybe uniquely, we have seen fewer of those lower on the economic scale willing to be economic migrants to the rest of the EU. Our appalling level of skill at languages may play a part, as well as underperformance educationally, but it just hasn’t been sold as a benefit and one that was always within reach of the young in economically deprived areas. Of course, there’s a level beneath which it is seen as possible but it has further cemented this idea of Europe as take not give.
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Brexit
Dec 22, 2019 23:09:48 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Dec 22, 2019 23:09:48 GMT
We can only wonder at the lost opportunities for 19-year old South Shields-born Deliveroo app riders in Bucharest and Tallinn.
I can feel a sitcom script coming on ...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 0:49:14 GMT
We can only wonder at the lost opportunities for 19-year old South Shields-born Deliveroo app riders in Bucharest and Tallinn.
I can feel a sitcom script coming on ...
Exactly the attitude that is at the root of the mess we are now in. Why those two countries, I have no idea. Estonia, with its tech revolution would be a better bet whereas Romania struggles, for example. Given the choice, don’t you think that France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Netherlands etc,, would be more of a draw though? If thousands from other countries come here, its our tragedy that this sneering at the possibility of going the opposite way has led us to this act of national self harm, especially if here, their option is zero hours contracts. |
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Brexit
Dec 23, 2019 7:57:42 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Dec 23, 2019 7:57:42 GMT
Thank you, Kier Starmer. This is the 'freedom of movement' slogan in action:
Or scroll down for the graphs here: |
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Post by NeilVHughes on Dec 23, 2019 8:47:22 GMT
In the perceived flippancy of what londonpostie alluded to there is a truth which has been forgotten. In the 80’s as our traditional economies declined many of what are considered unskilled workers had to find work overseas predominantly in the EU when we were considered the poor man of Europe. We have been lulled into what Nicholas so eloquently calls the bullsh*t and as we enter these uncharted waters we have pulled up the drawbridge and removed a coping method as all indicators show there will be an impact on the UK economy in the short to mid term. My initial reaction was my retirement plans have been messed up forgetting that I am lucky enough to have this option and can most probably ride out Brexit successfully, my thoughts are with the ones who have been hoodwinked into Brexit and how we move forward to provide the same opportunities I had outside of the EU. The first thing is to differentiate ignorance and stupidity, ignorance is not knowing, stupidity is knowing and still acting in an irrational way. The electorate who voted for Brexit were not stupid, the facts they were presented with were bullsh*t aligned with their beliefs. The mistake that was made by the remainers is that we assumed our position was so obvious and it did not need defending. The mainstream media drip fed their bullsh*t whilst we sat there in our primarily cosmopolitan bubble seeing through the bullsh*t not noticing that we had moved from a position based on facts to a position based on belief. The challenge over the next five years is to change Nordic socialism from a political concept to a reality that can become pseudo religious in the way Brexit became. How this can be done is the challenge that faces us all if we believe this is the way, we need our disciples who do not necessarily have to be in the political sphere. |
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Brexit
Dec 23, 2019 11:25:05 GMT
Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 11:25:05 GMT
Thank you, Kier Starmer. This is the 'freedom of movement' slogan in action:
Or scroll down for the graphs here: The first link above points to this, and gets right to the point. “Paradoxically, many of the countries most afflicted by depopulation problems are also those most opposed to policies increasing immigration. This is problematic because increased inward flows of immigrants are seen as a key ameliorating factor, and also one of the economically simplest fixes. However, politically, plugging such demographic shortfalls with immigrants can be a tough sell. Visegrad governments in central Europe, namely in Hungary and Poland are loath to accept immigrants.” The latter, with their ‘populist’ governments, are driving people away yet seek to infringe free movement principles. Maybe London, Manchester etc., should do the same, stopping young people from moving there and away from their ‘depopulated’ towns? That’s where this sort of thing ends. |
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Brexit
Jan 29, 2020 14:41:24 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Jan 29, 2020 14:41:24 GMT
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Brexit
Jan 29, 2020 17:40:53 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 17:40:53 GMT
I thought the cost cutting was coz the tories promised to continue free license fee for over 75s and then decided that the bbc should pay for it instead? |
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Brexit
Jan 29, 2020 18:01:14 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Jan 29, 2020 18:01:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 18:13:22 GMT
The free licence for over 75’s was fully funded by central government since 2000. Recently this changed, so that the BBC would have to pay. As they need to save money, they decided not to fund it for wealthier pensioners. Some people are easily conned, they think that the BBC paid for it all the time, when the government pulling that funding was the real catalyst. It’s what a conservative (and arguably any) government does, it puts the blame for its own actions onto others to avoid the fallout.
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1,863 posts
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Brexit
Jun 30, 2020 20:01:33 GMT
Post by NeilVHughes on Jun 30, 2020 20:01:33 GMT
As we pass the extension date the EU begin to get tough, no financial equivalence for financial firms from the 1st Jan.
“the UK cannot keep the benefits of the single market without the obligations”, Mr Barnier said “there is no way” the proposals would be accepted by EU national governments or the European Parliament.
Having worked in highly regulated industries for my whole career this was obvious from the start, to sell in the EU you must be compliant with the ‘CE’ regulations which we used to influence.
We can re-introduce the ‘Kite Mark’ but this can only be applied for products imported to the UK or made and sold in the UK. To export you have to comply with the Regulations of that Country, making the taking back control mantra meaningless.
If we now look at exports, 22 of the 27 EU Countries Export less than 3% of their GDP to the UK, the only Countries above 3% are Belgium, Netherlands, Ireland, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic.
In comparison the UK exports 45% of GDP to the EU.
The mistake is we consider the EU a single Country, in reality as very little can only be sourced in the UK what will happen the imports from the UK will be sourced from within the EU backfilling the lost exports to the UK at the national level.
We are leaving the EU this is not negotiable but we do need to become realistic on the impact, in the climate of Covid we are in for a turbulent few years, maybe decades and we need to be prepared or at least knowledgeable on what this means.
This is not project fear as this has no relevance, as also shown today the Custom infrastructure where lorries can lodge their paperwork electronically to allow unhindered travel across the channel has not even been developed so each truck driver will have to physically present their paperwork at the Port to Custom Officers of which only 4,000 of the 50,000 required have been recruited. This requirement is not impacted by what type of deal we get as we have left the Custom Union.
i know a lot of Brexiteers will call me defeatist and negative.
We have chosen to leave the EU Regulatory and Customs infrastructure and am not trying to stop it as this is futile, all I want is Brexiteers to consider and provide workable solutions for their decision.
As the EU becomes just another Country we need to understand what this means, am happy for someone with the experience of exporting product outside the EU to add it is not as simple as putting it in a box with a stamp as it is to the EU now as many seem to believe.
All I ask is for the Brexiteers to provide solutions rather than hyperbole as we only have 6 months to get this right.
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2,339 posts
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Brexit
Jun 30, 2020 20:04:27 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 30, 2020 20:04:27 GMT
As we pass the extension date the EU begin to get tough, no financial equivalence for financial firms from the 1st Jan. “the UK cannot keep the benefits of the single market without the obligations”, Mr Barnier said “there is no way” the proposals would be accepted by EU national governments or the European Parliament. ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/speech-barnier-eurofi-30062020_en.pdf Having worked in highly regulated industries for my whole career this was obvious from the start, to sell in the EU you must be compliant with the ‘CE’ regulations which we used to influence. We can re-introduce the ‘Kite Mark’ but this can only be applied for products imported to the UK or made and sold in the UK. To export you have to comply with the Regulations of that Country, making the taking back control mantra meaningless. If we now look at the exports, 22 of the 27 EU Countries Export less than 3% of GDP to the UK, the only Countries above 3% are Belgium, Netherlands, Ireland, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic. In comparison the UK exports 45% of GDP to the EU. The mistake is we consider the EU a single Country, in reality as very little can only be sourced in the UK what will happen the imports from the UK will be sourced from within the EU backfilling the lost exports to the UK at the national level. We are leaving the EU this is not negotiable but we do need to become realistic on the impact, in the climate of Covid we are in for a turbulent few years, maybe decades and we need to be prepared. This is not project fear as this has no relevance, as also shown today the Custom infrastructure where lorries can lodge their paperwork electronically to allow unhindered travel across the channel has not even been developed so each truck driver will have to physically present their paperwork at the Port to Custom Officers of which only 4,000 of the 50,000 required have been recruited. This requirement is not impacted by what type of deal we get as we have left the Custom Union. i know a lot of Brexiteers will call me defeatist and negative. We have chosen to leave the EU Regulatory and Customs infrastructure please provide solutions as the EU becomes another Country, am happy for someone with the experience of exporting product outside the EU to add it is not as simple as putting it in a box with a stamp as it is to the EU now. All I ask is for the Brexiteers to provide solutions rather than hyperbole as we only have 6 months to get this right. Bloody centrists |
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1,970 posts
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Brexit
Jun 30, 2020 20:18:36 GMT
Post by sf on Jun 30, 2020 20:18:36 GMT
i know a lot of Brexiteers will call me defeatist and negative. And I suspect some of them are in for a very rude awakening come January. All I ask is for the Brexiteers to provide solutions rather than hyperbole as we only have 6 months to get this right. I've been asking for this ever since the referendum was called. At this point, I'm not holding my breath. Most of the government's effort at this point seems to be going into propaganda: trying to create the impression that when things go wrong, which they will, it'll be Brussels's fault rather than our own. |
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Brexit
Jul 13, 2020 16:53:23 GMT
Post by NeilVHughes on Jul 13, 2020 16:53:23 GMT
The administration costs of Brexit for U.K. companies are beginning to be made public.
Each company who trades with the EU will need a Custom Declaration at a cost of ~£32.50 of which it is estimated 400 million a year will be required costing businesses ~£12.8bn each year far in excess of the cost of EU membership.
Businesses are also being encouraged to hire “customs intermediaries” to help traders complete and submit declarations and apply for “duty deferment accounts” to pay for customs charges via direct debit and are also being told to prepare to pay for VAT on imported goods and ensure drivers have international driving permits.
These costs will need to be absorbed either by the employees or the customer and our EU customers are likely to source within the EU if passed on so therefore wages will be hit as companies are not usually known for prioritising wages over profit and this is even before tariffs being added if we do not get a Deal.
As our productivity is already one of the lowest in industrialised nations this additional layer of paper pushers is just what we need as we enter what is thought will be one of the greatest recessions in history.
Again I ask Brexiteers what are the benefits of leaving the EU.
To trade in the EU we have to comply with EU Regulations so tacking back control is not one, with the caveats in the immigration Bill, immigration will likely remain the same only where they come from changing, the cost of doing business will rise, and our travel opportunities to our favourite holiday destinations by frequency seriously constrained.
£12.8bn a conservative amount is a lot of money each year to pay for a blue passport*
*French-designed Polish-printed
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Brexit
Jul 13, 2020 17:56:55 GMT
via mobile
Post by danb on Jul 13, 2020 17:56:55 GMT
Don’t, it’s not even funny. It’s an utter farce, and with the cost of Covid on top of it we’re absolutely screwed and will be handing decades of debt to our children. Particularly annoying after years of austerity to supposedly claw back Labours overspends.
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Brexit
Jul 14, 2020 14:57:18 GMT
Post by basdfg on Jul 14, 2020 14:57:18 GMT
Remember we going to also have to deal with China - remember a deal with Bejing was a part of Brexit offer but that has rightly gone now.
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2,339 posts
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Brexit
Jul 14, 2020 15:15:17 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 14, 2020 15:15:17 GMT
The administration costs of Brexit for U.K. companies are beginning to be made public. Each company who trades with the EU will need a Custom Declaration at a cost of ~£32.50 of which it is estimated 400 million a year will be required costing businesses ~£12.8bn each year far in excess of the cost of EU membership. Businesses are also being encouraged to hire “customs intermediaries” to help traders complete and submit declarations and apply for “duty deferment accounts” to pay for customs charges via direct debit and are also being told to prepare to pay for VAT on imported goods and ensure drivers have international driving permits. These costs will need to be absorbed either by the employees or the customer and our EU customers are likely to source within the EU if passed on so therefore wages will be hit as companies are not usually known for prioritising wages over profit and this is even before tariffs being added if we do not get a Deal. As our productivity is already one of the lowest in industrialised nations this additional layer of paper pushers is just what we need as we enter what is thought will be one of the greatest recessions in history. Again I ask Brexiteers what are the benefits of leaving the EU. To trade in the EU we have to comply with EU Regulations so tacking back control is not one, with the caveats in the immigration Bill, immigration will likely remain the same only where they come from changing, the cost of doing business will rise, and our travel opportunities to our favourite holiday destinations by frequency seriously constrained. £12.8bn a conservative amount is a lot of money each year to pay for a blue passport* *French-designed Polish-printed But it is about the ability to make your own decisions even though you have denied this. Why else did anybody vote for this? |
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Brexit
Jul 14, 2020 15:54:01 GMT
Post by NeilVHughes on Jul 14, 2020 15:54:01 GMT
theglenbucklaird What decisions? To export you have to comply with the Regulations of the importing Market, to ship to the EU you have to comply with CE, to ship to the US you have to comply with U.S. Federal Regulatory Framework....... All we have introduced is another Regulatory Body we have to comply with, whatever the U.K. decides to introduce similar to the old Kitemark and an additional cost to ones who want to sell to the U.K. I cannot see any decisions we can now make that we couldn’t before and if there are any how they will compensate for the increased cost and bureaucracy that leaving the EU will entail even the immigration changes will not reduce immigration only where the immigrants come from, the only way to reduce immigration is to reduce opportunity as the majority move to Countries to earn money not to scrounge of benefits and the reduced immigration over the last few years would indicate we are no longer a preferred choice as our economy becomes weaker. I am still waiting for a Brexiteer to come up with a cost/benefit analysis indicating how leaving the EU will make us better off tangibly not rhetorically. All I get is hyperbole, we can make decisions without stating the ones they mean, controlling our borders which we could have done if we chose, we can get trade deals with other Countries, state which ones will compensate for the inevitable loss of business with the EU (Most EU Countries export less than 3% GDP to the U.K., the U.K. exports 45% of GDP to the EU)......
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Brexit
Jul 14, 2020 16:35:28 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jul 14, 2020 16:35:28 GMT
theglenbucklaird What decisions? To export you have to comply with the Regulations of the importing Market, to ship to the EU you have to comply with CE, to ship to the US you have to comply with U.S. Federal Regulatory Framework....... All we have introduced is another Regulatory Body we have to comply with, whatever the U.K. decides to introduce similar to the old Kitemark and an additional cost to ones who want to sell to the U.K. I cannot see any decisions we can now make that we couldn’t before and if there are any how they will compensate for the increased cost and bureaucracy that leaving the EU will entail even the immigration changes will not reduce immigration only where the immigrants come from, the only way to reduce immigration is to reduce opportunity as the majority move to Countries to earn money not to scrounge of benefits and the reduced immigration over the last few years would indicate we are no longer a preferred choice as our economy becomes weaker. I am still waiting for a Brexiteer to come up with a cost/benefit analysis indicating how leaving the EU will make us better off tangibly not rhetorically. All I get is hyperbole, we can make decisions without stating the ones they mean, controlling our borders which we could have done if we chose, we can get trade deals with other Countries, state which ones will compensate for the inevitable loss of business with the EU (Most EU Countries export less than 3% GDP to the U.K., the U.K. exports 45% of GDP to the EU)...... There isn't a cost against benefits analysis but I don't think many people voted for that. I'm not a Brexiteer so not the best person to ask. You've kind of answered your own question. You have given all the benefits to leaving the EU. The UK now controls it borders, has greater say on it's economy and that does include the ability to be able to trade with other countries. Which Brexiteers (and this government) will hope to fill much of the gap in the economy with. We could even become a great Socialist state now which I am not sure we could whilst under membership of the EU. At the end of the day, the UK right wants make the decisions rather than the European right. |
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