287 posts
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Post by singingbird on Jul 3, 2023 9:17:45 GMT
What I still don't get - and never will - is that in the West End plays seem to do okay with more serious/adult subject matter, but musicals don't - and increasingly so over the last ten or more years.
It's not entirely true away from the WE - more adult musicals have done well recently at the Almeida, Young Vic, Donmar etc - but why can they not translate to that wider play-going audience? What is it about singing on stage, or using music to explore ideas and emotions, that puts so many people off? Music is so much a part of all our lives - it's not like it's some weird niche thing.
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Post by BVM on Jul 3, 2023 9:34:51 GMT
What I still don't get - and never will - is that in the West End plays seem to do okay with more serious/adult subject matter, but musicals don't - and increasingly so over the last ten or more years. It's not entirely true away from the WE - more adult musicals have done well recently at the Almeida, Young Vic, Donmar etc - but why can they not translate to that wider play-going audience? What is it about singing on stage, or using music to explore ideas and emotions, that puts so many people off? Music is so much a part of all our lives - it's not like it's some weird niche thing. Interesting point - and agree more "adult" West End plays. I think possibly money again. Musicals are SO expensive - bigger casts, entire orchestra to pay, complexities in sound design and normally (well less so these days) bigger sets and stagings. Producers don't want to risk it. Plus more expensive and complex to develop, involving more people. Also, the plays are in smaller houses, easier to fill and cheaper to hire. But totally agree on your last point. I am gutted using music to explore serious/adult ideas and emotions seems to be in terminal decline. |
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Post by shownut on Jul 3, 2023 10:05:09 GMT
What I still don't get - and never will - is that in the West End plays seem to do okay with more serious/adult subject matter, but musicals don't - and increasingly so over the last ten or more years. It's not entirely true away from the WE - more adult musicals have done well recently at the Almeida, Young Vic, Donmar etc - but why can they not translate to that wider play-going audience? What is it about singing on stage, or using music to explore ideas and emotions, that puts so many people off? Music is so much a part of all our lives - it's not like it's some weird niche thing. Interesting point - and agree more "adult" West End plays. I think possibly money again. Musicals are SO expensive - bigger casts, entire orchestra to pay, complexities in sound design and normally (well less so these days) bigger sets and stagings. Producers don't want to risk it. Plus more expensive and complex to develop, involving more people. Also, the plays are in smaller houses, easier to fill and cheaper to hire. But totally agree on your last point. I am gutted using music to explore serious/adult ideas and emotions seems to be in terminal decline. I would not agree that 'serious-minded' musicals are in decline. True, they are more risky in terms of commercial success, but that hasn't stopped them from being written/produced/winning awards/touring/licensing. One of Broadway's most recent successes/Tony winners is KIMBERLY AKIMBO which is not a tap-dancing spectacle and likely considered 'serious' musical theatre. In recent times we have also had DEAR EVAN HANSEN and COME FROM AWAY, not to mention a recently well-received productions of PARADE, CAROLINE OR CHANGE and LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA in New York. This summer, West End audiences have A STRANGE LOOP and NEXT TO NORMAL to enjoy, following a very successful run of THE BAND'S VISIT last year (and is rumoured to be making a limited return). And although I found nothing to enjoy in either STANDING AT THE SKY'S EDGE or HADESTOWN, both are headed to the West End soon. |
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Post by BVM on Jul 3, 2023 10:28:49 GMT
Interesting point - and agree more "adult" West End plays. I think possibly money again. Musicals are SO expensive - bigger casts, entire orchestra to pay, complexities in sound design and normally (well less so these days) bigger sets and stagings. Producers don't want to risk it. Plus more expensive and complex to develop, involving more people. Also, the plays are in smaller houses, easier to fill and cheaper to hire. But totally agree on your last point. I am gutted using music to explore serious/adult ideas and emotions seems to be in terminal decline. I would not agree that 'serious-minded' musicals are in decline. True, they are more risky in terms of commercial success, but that hasn't stopped them from being written/produced/winning awards/touring/licensing. One of Broadway's most recent successes/Tony winners is KIMBERLY AKIMBO which is not a tap-dancing spectacle and likely considered 'serious' musical theatre. In recent times we have also had DEAR EVAN HANSEN and COME FROM AWAY, not to mention a recently well-received productions of PARADE, CAROLINE OR CHANGE and LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA in New York. This summer, West End audiences have A STRANGE LOOP and NEXT TO NORMAL to enjoy, following a very successful run of THE BAND'S VISIT last year (and is rumoured to be making a limited return). And although I found nothing to enjoy in either STANDING AT THE SKY'S EDGE or HADESTOWN, both are headed to the West End soon. True, but they are the exception rather than the rule. And certainly Broadway does this more. There's not much home grown stuff of that ilk. And they come and go quite quickly in London. I guess maybe I feel that bigger budget ambitious serious musicals are in decline. And certainly sung through ones. Lots of those shows rely on long spoken sections to get the plot across so I find the "emotion through music" less than what we've seen in the past. Dear Evan Hansen, Come From Away, Kimberly Akimbo all designed as cheaper with simple sets, small casts, small bands - so are closer to play budgets than the big musicals. And this is where the ambition lies in new musicals generally. Also they are much less popular here with the former two having comparatively less successful London runs and if the latter does come over I am sure will be less successful here. Next to Normal is a short run in a small theatre and Strange Loop is not West End. Delighted to see Sky's Edge transfer in and hope the Groundhog Day rumours are true - two big British success stories which pleases me muchly. Though it very much remains to be seen if the buzz and sales of a limited time in a subsidised venue translates to an open ended or longer (not sure which they are going for) West End run where the climate is harsher. |
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Post by viserys on Jul 3, 2023 10:32:05 GMT
It's not entirely true away from the WE - more adult musicals have done well recently at the Almeida, Young Vic, Donmar etc - but why can they not translate to that wider play-going audience? What is it about singing on stage, or using music to explore ideas and emotions, that puts so many people off? Music is so much a part of all our lives - it's not like it's some weird niche thing. But that's also where I feel this kind of show belongs. So many of the recent Tony winners (for Best Musical) were a success Off-Broadway, then didn't do well on Broadway, because they just didn't belong on a big stage where they lost their intimacy and also felt overpriced for what were usually rather small shows. I purposely didn't bother with Kimberly Akimbo on Broadway now, because I'd much rather see it in a far more intimate setting in London in 1-2 years, perhaps at the Donmar or Young Vic. I also just couldn't muster any interest in seeing Parade on Broadway - while I do think it's a worthy subject to be telling, I couldn't face sitting through something so utterly depressing. As a movie, at home, okay, but not when I spend a lot of money on an evening out. And also, for me personally - musicals need to engage me with good music and lyrics from the get-go, I have no patience with wannabe profound shows with complicated music you need to listen to 20 times to "get it" or have to work out complicated metaphors. Call me shallow, but it's how it is. As I wrote in the Strange Loop thread, RL is stressful and challenging enough, I want entertainment and emotional engagement when I go to the theatre, shows that make me laugh or cry or ideally both. I guess the avid play-goers just have so much to choose from, why would they want to expand on that? Most musical fans rarely branch out into plays or opera either. |
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Post by apubleed on Jul 3, 2023 11:02:55 GMT
viceroys have you been to the booth theatre in NYC? As one of Broadway's smallest theatres I would describe it as quite intimate and I don't think the intimacy of Akimbo would be lost especially from the stalls/orchestra. I would also say some of the other recent smaller best musical winners (e.g. Fun Home, Gentlemen's Guide, Strange Loop) were indeed in smaller theatres but it's the subject matter and complexity that does not appeal to the mass market. I kind of take your point though that there is a big problem with musicals that you do need to put a lot of effort sometimes to be able to cut through the complexity to finally hear the patterns in the music etc. I personally find the pay off highly worth it but I am very niche - why should someone pay £50-£100 to see a show only to then have to see it multiple times and/or listen to the recording to really get it? That's a big ask of audiences who just want to be entertained.
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Post by shownut on Jul 3, 2023 11:03:05 GMT
It's not entirely true away from the WE - more adult musicals have done well recently at the Almeida, Young Vic, Donmar etc - but why can they not translate to that wider play-going audience? What is it about singing on stage, or using music to explore ideas and emotions, that puts so many people off? Music is so much a part of all our lives - it's not like it's some weird niche thing. But that's also where I feel this kind of show belongs. So many of the recent Tony winners (for Best Musical) were a success Off-Broadway, then didn't do well on Broadway, because they just didn't belong on a big stage where they lost their intimacy and also felt overpriced for what were usually rather small shows. I purposely didn't bother with Kimberly Akimbo on Broadway now, because I'd much rather see it in a far more intimate setting in London in 1-2 years, perhaps at the Donmar or Young Vic. I also just couldn't muster any interest in seeing Parade on Broadway - while I do think it's a worthy subject to be telling, I couldn't face sitting through something so utterly depressing. As a movie, at home, okay, but not when I spend a lot of money on an evening out. And also, for me personally - musicals need to engage me with good music and lyrics from the get-go, I have no patience with wannabe profound shows with complicated music you need to listen to 20 times to "get it" or have to work out complicated metaphors. Call me shallow, but it's how it is. As I wrote in the Strange Loop thread, RL is stressful and challenging enough, I want entertainment and emotional engagement when I go to the theatre, shows that make me laugh or cry or ideally both. I guess the avid play-goers just have so much to choose from, why would they want to expand on that? Most musical fans rarely branch out into plays or opera either. To each his own and there is no need to be apologetic if you favour shows that are geared towards entertainment/escapism rather than addressing 'the human condition' or the world at large. That is what I love about the form is that there is something that appeals to all tastes and diversity of opinion. That said, I would argue that it we don't encourage writers of more serious minded musicals, musical theatre as we know it may well go the way of the dinosaurs and not remain an art form that deserves to be taken seriously. On a side note, it is odd how the same piece can affect people differently. You won't embrace A STRANGE LOOP because the content is considered upsetting but I and many others left the theatre on a high as it addressed the art of just 'being,' despite how awful the world can be or how we percieve it to be inside of our heads (with voices that are more than willing to reinforce those negative emotions about ourselves and those around us). I found it life-affirming rather than troubling but then again, to each his own. |
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Post by viserys on Jul 3, 2023 11:34:39 GMT
You won't embrace A STRANGE LOOP because the content is considered upsetting Oh, no, that was Parade  Strange Loop I just can't muster all that much interest in, even though I'm VERY familiar with those voices in my head. If I was living in/near London and could spontaneously go (ideally on a discount), I would certainly check it out, but I have to plan my travels from abroad months in advance and then pick carefully what I want to see in those days, partly because hotel prices are ridiculous now, but also because I just can't "absorb" more than 4 shows, 5 at a pinch, in short succession. I also think musicals can be entertaining AND deeply moving, which is why I'm so utterly in love with Hadestown. I absolutely love the music and lyrics and also how it packs a punch in pointing out the human condition and mankind's ability to wreck things for themselves for eternally doubting themselves instead of having faith. And many of the classics, such as "Carousel" are also very deeply moving and about the human condition without having to be exhausting. |
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Post by shownut on Jul 3, 2023 11:55:29 GMT
You won't embrace A STRANGE LOOP because the content is considered upsetting Oh, no, that was Parade Strange Loop I just can't muster all that much interest in, even though I'm VERY familiar with those voices in my head. If I was living in/near London and could spontaneously go (ideally on a discount), I would certainly check it out, but I have to plan my travels from abroad months in advance and then pick carefully what I want to see in those days, partly because hotel prices are ridiculous now, but also because I just can't "absorb" more than 4 shows, 5 at a pinch, in short succession. I also think musicals can be entertaining AND deeply moving, which is why I'm so utterly in love with Hadestown. I absolutely love the music and lyrics and also how it packs a punch in pointing out the human condition and mankind's ability to wreck things for themselves for eternally doubting themselves instead of having faith. And many of the classics, such as "Carousel" are also very deeply moving and about the human condition without having to be exhausting. Ah yes. PARADE is upsetting so certainly not for everyone. Remains one of my favourite scores and I am heading to NYC later this month to catch that revival before it closes. And you make a good point about being a bit more discerning when you have to travel in to see a show. With high costs and unpredictable train strikes I would agree - for that journey one might want at least some guarantee of a good night out. I wish I enjoyed HADESTOWN as much as you did but seem to be one of only two people on the planet that didn't warm to it. True that many of the classics are vital and deeply moving but we will hopefully encourage todays writers to try equally challenging subjects and ways of stretching the form so that modern musical theatre informs as well as it entertains. Good luck on your next West End visit! :-) |
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Post by Jon on Jul 3, 2023 12:06:07 GMT
I would point out that big scale musicals with serious subject matters hasn't really been done in quite some time. Indeed, the closest one is probably Hamilton and that is fairly low tech. Moulin Rouge at a stretch given the ending.
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Post by Dawnstar on Jul 3, 2023 15:00:42 GMT
Most musical fans rarely branch out into plays or opera either. Surely some must? I can't be the only one! This year the 35 performances I've seen have been made up of 7 ballets, 5 opera, 1 operetta, 4 musicals, 2 plays & 1 improv group (before anyone says that doesn't add up to 35, I've done multiple viewings of some, especially ballets with different casts). Admittedly sometimes I think I & my bank account would find it easier if I didn't want to see several different genres of theatre! |
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Post by viserys on Jul 3, 2023 15:44:26 GMT
Surely some must? I can't be the only one! You are actually the only person I know who's ALSO interested in opera and ballet and I don't even know you in person! One friend likes ballet (but rarely goes to see one live) and my Mom likes opera as well as musical (but not plays) and that's about it. But generally I only hear from musical-loving friends that they're going to see a play when it's a star they're interested in seeing on stage. |
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Post by Dawnstar on Jul 3, 2023 16:15:49 GMT
You are actually the only person I know who's ALSO interested in opera and ballet and I don't even know you in person! One friend likes ballet (but rarely goes to see one live) and my Mom likes opera as well as musical (but not plays) and that's about it. But generally I only hear from musical-loving friends that they're going to see a play when it's a star they're interested in seeing on stage. You must know a few other people besides me because there are a (admittedly fairly small) number of us who post in the Opera & Dance section on here. I know, mostly online rather than in person, a number of people who like opera, ballet & some musicals, usually the more dance-heavy end of the musicals spectrum. I'll admit I'm not a big play-goer, or at least not serious plays. When I do see plays they're almost always comedies. |
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Post by A.Ham on Jul 3, 2023 16:31:44 GMT
I’m a musicals AND plays fan too!
In fact in recent years I’ve found myself enjoying the plays I’ve seen more than some trips to musicals. I find the audience behaviour generally better (even at Shirley Valentine on a Saturday night!) and I’ve found I often get more emotionally/connection-wise from the performance too. Perhaps I’ve just seen too many musicals so the bar has got higher and higher.
I will admit to being drawn by star casting though, at least when it’s a highly capable actor who I want to see. Jodie Comer, Sheridan Smith and James Norton being recent examples.
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Post by Stephen on Jul 3, 2023 16:55:23 GMT
I think it's worth noting (and I'm playing devils advocate a little here) that sometimes star casting is a good thing!
Seems to be much better on broadway though where I've seen some wonderful actors in both plays and musicals, all being big names bringing audiences in. Off the top of my head...Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard (not Blvd) Alan Cumming and Emma Stone in Cabaret, Hugh Jackman in the Music Man. All were some of the best performances in musicals I've seen. Jim Parson in Harvey also a standout for me across the pond.
We just don't seem to be as good at it over here often casting soap/reality tv stars in the lead roles.
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Post by BVM on Jul 3, 2023 17:00:33 GMT
I think it's worth noting (and I'm playing devils advocate a little here) that sometimes star casting is a good thing! Seems to be much better on broadway though where I've seen some wonderful actors in both plays and musicals, all being big names bringing audiences in. Off the top of my head...Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard (not Blvd) Alan Cumming and Emma Stone in Cabaret, Hugh Jackman in the Music Man. All were some of the best performances in musicals I've seen. Jim Parson in Harvey also a standout for me across the pond. We just don't seem to be as good at it over here often casting soap/reality tv stars in the lead roles. Think you've hit the nail on the head. Star casting - great. Stunt casting - bad! |
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Post by tmesis on Jul 3, 2023 21:48:39 GMT
I too go to 'a bit of everything.'
Since Jan 1st I've been to 37 performances.
This breaks down:
Play 16
Musical 10
Ballet 6
Opera 5
I increasingly find satisfaction mainly in the plays I go to see and next in order the ballets. I would go and see more ballets but I have seen most of the standard repertoire so many times there's got to be a good reason to see it. I'm surprised I've been to so few operas but again I've seen all the standard repertoire (and not so standard) so many times there has to be a compelling reason to visit; plus the ROH seems to be gradually replacing all their good to OK productions with something far worse.
I've really not enjoyed many musicals recently; The Secret Life of Bees was quite meh, Glory Ride, boring beyond belief and virtually everything at Southwark I've seen has misfired. I love Crazy for You (seen it 3 times - 2 Chichester 1 WE.) The only new(ish) musical I have really enjoyed and also rate highly is The Band's Visit.
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Post by tmesis on Jul 3, 2023 21:53:59 GMT
Oh also forgot, really enjoyed Alex Parker's The Railway Children in Guildford.
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Post by BVM on Aug 12, 2023 10:37:10 GMT
Thought of this thread yesterday as SOLT quoted some official figures re average ticket prices.
Average ticket price currently is £54.38
Average ticket price in 2019 before the coronavirus was £52.17
Adjusted for inflation average ticket price is DOWN 7.8%.
(Taken from Stage article - can’t post due to paywall).
Now I know facts and stats aren’t as fun as hyperbole, high emotion, #it’sadisgrace rhetorics, finding an agency seating plan pic, circling the premium seats and screaming into the abyss on Twitter etc etc etc.
But despite perception to the contrary, the average West End ticket price is very much in check.
Of course my previous point re some people having jobs where salaries keep up with inflation while some have massive real terms pay cuts, and the grim widening of inequality under Tory Britain still stand.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 12, 2023 10:46:18 GMT
But what does that average ticket price actually represent?
Is it the average price paid by punters? If so, how is that data gathered?
Is it the average advertised price? If so, how does that work in a world of dynamic pricing?
Statistics can, of course, be used to show anything you need.
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Post by BVM on Aug 12, 2023 10:55:26 GMT
But what does that average ticket price actually represent? Is it the average price paid by punters? If so, how is that data gathered? Is it the average advertised price? If so, how does that work in a world of dynamic pricing? Statistics can, of course, be used to show anything you need. You’re quite right. But one would hope that whatever method SOLT do use, it was the same for 2019 and 2023 so the two are directly comparable. I guess my main point is that perception and reality can vary massively. Add in the high emotion this topic causes and I think even more so! It’s also a common fan excuse as to why their fave show has sold badly. “It’s failed because THEY’VE PRICED IT TOO HIGH!” I mean human nature. Easier to explain it like that when you love something rather than think simply it’s failed cos not many people wanna see it. Anyway, just an interesting tidbit to add to the debate I thought! |
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Post by theatrefan62 on Aug 12, 2023 11:06:33 GMT
When people see a show they might be interested in they go on to buy tickets and they'll see the vast majority of good seats at a premium price which for many will be off putting. The majority of the public won't know about day seats, dynamic pricing or offers (although offers don't seem as common place as they once were).
Today you have the cheap 'headline grabbing' tickets at the back being subsidised by the premium seats at the front.
I found an old Lion King ticket from 1999 the other day. Adjusted for inflation it would cost approx £78 today. Those same seats for sale now are £138 to £183 (the seats cross two price bands today)
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 12, 2023 11:19:19 GMT
But what does that average ticket price actually represent? Is it the average price paid by punters? If so, how is that data gathered? Is it the average advertised price? If so, how does that work in a world of dynamic pricing? Statistics can, of course, be used to show anything you need. You’re quite right. But one would hope that whatever method SOLT do use, it was the same for 2019 and 2023 so the two are directly comparable. I guess my main point is that perception and reality can vary massively. Add in the high emotion this topic causes and I think even more so! It’s also a common fan excuse as to why their fave show has sold badly. “It’s failed because THEY’VE PRICED IT TOO HIGH!” I mean human nature. Easier to explain it like that when you love something rather than think simply it’s failed cos not many people wanna see it. Anyway, just an interesting tidbit to add to the debate I thought! They may be comparable but they very much are there to show something that SOLT wants the public to believe. And quite frankly, I am not convinced by their narrative. Top ticket prices are now far higher than they have ever been. That applies to the provinces as well as London. And whilst we cannot prove it, it seems highly likely that high advertised prices are making people question whether they can afford to go to the theatre. The Theateboard community isn't typical as people here are more aware of how to find deals whether it be through papering sites or knowing about day seats/other lower price mechanisms. But the average punter wanting to book a treat for a family trip is going to look at top prices well over 100 quid a go and decide not to bother. And whilst I know that star casting can be expensive, I do really get annoyed at the growing trend for one person shows with huge prices. Yes, I know that this is all a business thing. |
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Post by LaLuPone on Aug 12, 2023 11:26:20 GMT
That figure will be from box offices sending weekly data to SOLT telling them the number of seats sold and how much the show grossed. From that SOLT would work out the average ticket price, so it includes everything from rush up to the super premium seats.
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