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Post by max on Jun 30, 2023 10:46:45 GMT
A thread for theories on: trends, and working out 'what's going on?'.
Made a thread on this as many musicals seem to be struggling and some interesting comments on what does / doesn't sell have been made on various show threads. Most recently some good conjecture on the Aspects Of Love thread as it's closing early. Yes, that show got mainly poor reviews, and proved divisive, but generally there seems to be a feeling that you need to hit one of two buzzers:
*family oriented (possibly with some stunt or shiny casting)
or
*cult following (however manufactured that vibe might be)
I notice the latter in shows like 'Heathers' and ' Operation Mincemeat'. I've been a bit vocal on calling out 'Mincemeat' for what I feel is faked coddling of its audience (loyalty schemes that barely reward anyone). Nevertheless, "I'm part of the clan" seems a strong way to hook an audience, and hold them. A biproduct is that they surely don't go and see as many other shows (I could cry for 'Glory Ride' at Charing Cross) because they're so deeply bought in to an allegiance to the clan they've joined, and seeing it as often as possible. .
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Post by max on Jun 30, 2023 10:51:22 GMT
In other threads posters have cited:
Travel disruption due to strikes.
Cheap productions post-covid (either off-puttingly cheap, or kooky fringe-scale shows thrive as they naturally match that aesthetic and play on cult vibe).
Supporting my local theatre instead.
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Post by Jon on Jun 30, 2023 10:55:00 GMT
Theatre isn't dying nor is the West End. People didn't find Aspects of Love appealing nor have any interest in Ain't Too Proud.
There's been success in theatreland, the National is having a hot streak at the moment as is the Almeida.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Jun 30, 2023 10:58:23 GMT
A biproduct is that they surely don't go and see as many other shows (I could cry for 'Glory Ride' at Charing Cross) because they're so deeply bought in to an allegiance to the clan they've joined, and seeing it as often as possible Personally I've never known this to be true? Even the hardcore Six fans go and see other things that have former Six actresses in. I have shows I love and return to but I still see pretty much everything that opens (maybe not all the plays, but definitely almost all the musicals). |
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Post by theatrefan62 on Jun 30, 2023 10:59:07 GMT
For me (and I know other friends and family) the west end doesn't stand for that pinnacle of quality it used to.
Physical productions are cheaper, casts aren't always top tier. The difference between what you'd pay a premium for in London and what you get on tour is very minimal to non existent these days.
The cost of getting into London is just more and more expensive, and also unreliable.
You can spend on a day trip to see a show the same amount as a weekend away in Europe.
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Post by distantcousin on Jun 30, 2023 11:08:02 GMT
Theatre isn't dying nor is the West End. People didn't find Aspects of Love appealing nor have any interest in Ain't Too Proud. There's been success in theatreland, the National is having a hot streak at the moment as is the Almeida. No one said it was dying. We're just looking at how it has changed beyond recognition in the past 10 years or so - how and why? |
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Post by theatrefan62 on Jun 30, 2023 11:11:05 GMT
Exactly. No one said its dying but both here, and on broadway, there has been a shift.
It's very simplistic to say 'people just didn't want to see....'. But if companies didn't analyse why a product or service didn't succeed then they would never progress. That's all that's happening here.
The difference with places like the national is it has a larger built in (and local) audience. The commercial west end relies more on UK day trippers and tourists.
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Post by richey on Jun 30, 2023 11:12:18 GMT
I think cost is a big factor.
I've just booked a few days in London, using basic travel and one of the cheaper chain hotels, yet the cost of that would probably have got me a week's holiday abroad. Add to that the unreliability of transport, particularly trains.
I know I haven't made as many visits this year as I previously do, though there are plenty of shows I know I'd like to see
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Post by theatrefan62 on Jun 30, 2023 11:15:30 GMT
Yes cost definitely.
Not London but when I went to Chichester to see assassins the trains had gone up 50% since before covid (first post pandemic visit). Parking at station was now a tenner. Add in food and the day cost almost £100, plus theatre tickets. Definitely more than pre covid and did make me realise I'll have to consider all costs before racing to book.
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Post by Jon on Jun 30, 2023 11:16:00 GMT
Exactly. No one said its dying but both here, and on broadway, there has been a shift. It's very simplistic to say 'people just didn't want to see....'. But if companies didn't analyse why a product or service didn't succeed then they would never progress. That's all that's happening here. Aspects of Love is a show which hasn't aged well with unlikeable characters, I don't think it closing early indicates anything other than it wasn't the right time to revive it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2023 11:21:29 GMT
As a long-time theatergoer in both London and NYC, I find myself post-pandemic as a more discerning arts consumer, primarily because of the rising ticket prices. I think the pandemic changed many people's habits in a lot of ways that some producers and the leadership of arts organizations haven't fully incorporated into their offerings.
I still attend a lot of shows, but I'm less likely to see something it if wasn't strongly reviewed, has decent word of mouth, or includes cast members or creative team members whom I've found generally are worth supporting. In addition, I'm a bit more choosy on subject matter.
One other more recent influence on my attendance has been the seeming rise in audience behavior that I find less than desirable. Of course this is very subjective, but I don't want to pay top dollar for a musical only to have audience members singing or dancing along during the performance. Many of the musicals drawing on pop tunes seem to either encourage or enable such behavior. Curtain calls are an exception and I'm fine with that.
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Post by max on Jun 30, 2023 11:23:12 GMT
I've flogged this dead horse on a number of threads in the past, but here I go again, haha....
For the benefit of new musicals I wonder if playing shows In Rep would work? A banker show supports something more tricky to sell (and never going to support 8 shows a week). ALW often reaches for 'innovation' that's actually to meet a different agenda of his. So why not 'School Of Rock' supporting fewer perfs of 'Aspects Of Love'. I need to see Michael Ball's Dewey Finn! With Laura Pit Pulford doing 'Tell Me On A Sunday' on... Sundays.
Then rehearse a new musical underneath to replace one of them. Am I working the cast hard enough?
But seriously, it might work in an off-West End venue as a salaried scheme for new graduates. This would also bring that 'I know the company / I fancy that one' vibe that people seem to like.
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Post by A.Ham on Jun 30, 2023 11:24:09 GMT
It’s probably worth me re-stating what I said in the Ain’t Too Proud thread - surely cost is a huge factor for people at the moment? To book in advance for reasonable seats with a family or group of friends is expensive, there’s no getting away from that, and people simply don’t have as much disposable income at the moment. I’m lucky that I often go on my own so can use rush tickets or offers to pick up a cheap ticket and see things that way, but for larger groups wanting to book ahead that’s not usually possible.
For that reason I’ve not booked for Lyonesse yet - as much as I want to see it, anything at an ok price currently is either behind one of the Pinter’s many pillars or squeezed into a very tight corner, but I’m hoping that despite the star casting there’ll still be some offers nearer the time.
And when people do decide to spend their money and go see a show, they’re more likely to pick something ‘tried and tested’ that’s a known quantity and book for a well known show rather than taking a risk on something new like Ain’t Too Proud or Crazy For You.
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Post by Jon on Jun 30, 2023 11:24:34 GMT
It's very easy to look at shows closing early and think something is wrong and things are doomed but we've seen just as many successful shows, perhaps not musicals but plays are in very good health, people are seeing The Motive and the Cue and Patriots for example and neither are familiar titles.
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Post by theatrefan62 on Jun 30, 2023 11:24:57 GMT
As a long-time theatergoer in both London and NYC, I find myself post-pandemic as a more discerning arts consumer, primarily because of the rising ticket prices. I still attend a lot of shows, but I'm less likely to see something it if wasn't strongly reviewed, has decent word of mouth, or includes cast members or creative team members whom I've found generally are worth supporting. In addition, I'm a bit more choosy on subject matter. One other more recent influence on my attendance has been the seeming rise in audience behavior that I find less than desirable. Of course this is very subjective, but I don't want to pay top dollar for a musical only to have audience members singing or dancing along during the performance. Many of the musicals drawing on pop tunes seem to either encourage or enable such behavior. Curtain calls are an exception and I'm fine with that. That's a great point. I've stopped going to cinemas for that reason. It's just a nicer experience at home. And theatre, for some shows has definitely started to head in that direction with behaviour. I also used to be someone who tried to see everything, but that's just not feasible anymore. Quality over quantity |
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Post by cezbear on Jun 30, 2023 11:25:20 GMT
I think cost and travel too. I love going to the theatre, I have a reasonable disposable income and 'decent' transport links to London. Not that long ago I was going at least every couple of weeks. It's slipped to me rarely bothering, because the cost and effort involved are just too much - and that's just for me, a huge fan with the money to spend on it, and the knowledge on how to get decent deals.
I have no idea how the average family goes anymore - and probably they don't.
Show tickets are expensive. Trains are extortionate, and frequently delayed or cancelled or striking. If you want to go catch an evening show from somewhere like Liverpool, there are no longer any trains that will get you home again afterwards - and that's if you were willing to spend the ridiculous prices.
There's coaches but they also don't return late enough for an evening show.
Make it expensive AND logistically difficult and why would the casual theatregoer want to bother. I don't even want to bother and it's something I love.
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Post by theatrefan62 on Jun 30, 2023 11:26:02 GMT
It's very easy to look shows closing early and think something is wrong and things are doomed but we've seen just as many successful shows, perhaps not musicals but plays are in very good health. Again, no one is saying things are doomed. |
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Post by Jon on Jun 30, 2023 11:28:23 GMT
As a long-time theatergoer in both London and NYC, I find myself post-pandemic as a more discerning arts consumer, primarily because of the rising ticket prices. I still attend a lot of shows, but I'm less likely to see something it if wasn't strongly reviewed, has decent word of mouth, or includes cast members or creative team members whom I've found generally are worth supporting. In addition, I'm a bit more choosy on subject matter. One other more recent influence on my attendance has been the seeming rise in audience behavior that I find less than desirable. Of course this is very subjective, but I don't want to pay top dollar for a musical only to have audience members singing or dancing along during the performance. Many of the musicals drawing on pop tunes seem to either encourage or enable such behavior. Curtain calls are an exception and I'm fine with that. That's a great point. I've stopped going to cinemas for that reason. It's just a nicer experience at home. And theatre, for some shows has definitely started to head in that direction with behaviour. I also used to be someone who tried to see everything, but that's just not feasible anymore. Quality over quantity I do think it's a bit hyperbolic to suggest it's better to stay at home than to go out. The pandemic and lockdowns proved to me personally that it's not actually a good thing to just spend your free time at home. There are always going to be idiots but there's the minority and not the majority. |
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Post by theatrefan62 on Jun 30, 2023 11:33:35 GMT
That's a great point. I've stopped going to cinemas for that reason. It's just a nicer experience at home. And theatre, for some shows has definitely started to head in that direction with behaviour. I also used to be someone who tried to see everything, but that's just not feasible anymore. Quality over quantity I do think it's a bit hyperbolic to suggest it's better to stay at home than to go out. The pandemic and lockdowns proved to me personally that it's not actually a good thing to just spend your free time at home. There are always going to be idiots but there's the minority and not the majority. Not at all. And I didn't suggest it's better to stay home in general. But for me the cinema isn't a particularly enjoyable experience anymore. Especially as it costs so much more these days so its cheaper to watch at home too. It has to be a film I really can't wait a couple of months to see, which doesn't happen very often. You can stream most films within a few months. It's a much nicer experience to get friends or family round and watch in comfort of own home. |
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Post by Jon on Jun 30, 2023 11:44:11 GMT
I've flogged this dead horse on a number of threads in the past, but here I go again, haha.... For the benefit of new musicals I wonder if playing shows In Rep would work? A banker show supports something more tricky to sell (and never going to support 8 shows a week). ALW often reaches for 'innovation' that's actually to meet a different agenda of his. So why not 'School Of Rock' supporting fewer perfs of 'Aspects Of Love'. I need to see Michael Ball's Dewey Finn! With Laura Pit Pulford doing 'Tell Me On A Sunday' on... Sundays. Then rehearse a new musical underneath to replace one of them. Am I working the cast hard enough? But seriously, it might work in an off-West End venue as a salaried scheme for new graduates. This would also bring that 'I know the company / I fancy that one' vibe that people seem to like. I suspect no producer would ever go for that approach, the cost would be too much. |
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Post by theatrelover97 on Jun 30, 2023 11:44:32 GMT
I think prices are the main issue but others include interesting creative and casting decisions, transport costs and strikes and tourism stil not fully back.
Aspects I think the fact its only Michael Ball that is a big name and it only has one well known song is why it has flopped.
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Post by theatreian on Jun 30, 2023 11:49:05 GMT
AS mentioned above cost is probably the primary concern together with the reduced tourist numbers in London compared to pre covid. I think it will take a few years to get back to anything like it was as with the cost of living implications/ mortgage rates etc , Theatre is one element that can be cut out.
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Post by robertb213 on Jun 30, 2023 11:55:50 GMT
Life is just too expensive now and luxuries like theatre will be the first thing that people cut back on when they need to. People need to pay their bills, they don't need to see a show. I don't spend my money on anything else and don't have a family to support so I'm very lucky, but cost will be governing most people's decisions to cut back on theatre trips rather than the selection of shows on offer.
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Post by longinthetooth on Jun 30, 2023 12:39:22 GMT
I'm another one who has pared back their theatregoing due to cost. I keep an ever changing list of shows I would like to see, and usually take great delight in crossing one off once booked. However, more than one show has been pushed down the order or even dropped once I've seen the cost of tickets. I like to sit near the front as I like to feel involved in a show, but the price of these tickets is prohibitive in most cases. I'm fortunate in that I'm close enough to London not to need to plan too far ahead (and equally fortunate that I still have some trains even on strike days) and can take advantage of offers if and when they come up (I'm retired), but frequently such offers don't include matinees or weekends. I'm equally fortunate in that I'm usually a solo theatregoer, so don't have to worry about pre- or post-show meals with companions (I just grab a sandwich somewhere), and am also old enough to have a senior railcard. I agree, though, that theatregoing is one of the first things to go when money is tight. I recall once becoming embroiled in the comments section of the Daily Fail (don't judge me!), when I said something about theatre tickets and was accused of flaunting my privileged existence!!!
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