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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 20, 2022 13:05:27 GMT
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Post by theatreian on Nov 20, 2022 15:06:13 GMT
It's dreadful and I know homophobic attacks occur in lots of places but the US can be so polarised in it's views. Here's hoping the person responsible is brought to justice.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 20, 2022 16:08:33 GMT
Thankfully the shooter was over powered by people in the club and is in custody.
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Post by karloscar on Nov 21, 2022 8:33:15 GMT
It appears the shooter was the grandson of a far right politician and Trump supporter who recently lost his seat in the California assembly. It's good to see that the shallow "thoughts and prayers" hypocrisy of right wing legislators is being called for what it is. Their homophobic rhetoric and refusal to reform gun law is directly responsible for events like these. Thank goodness for the brave individuals who intervened to overpower the gunman and prevent more loss of life, this tragedy could have been much much worse. When will America learn that the precious "right to bear arms" offers far more danger than protection?
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Post by kathryn on Nov 21, 2022 14:56:24 GMT
Reports suggest the shooter had previously made bomb threats against his own mother, but was not prosecuted and did not have his guns removed when no explosives were found.
Unbelievable.
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Post by crowblack on Nov 21, 2022 20:22:33 GMT
When will America learn that the precious "right to bear arms" offers far more danger than protection? Compare their reactions after Sandy Hook and so many other school shootings to us after Dunblane, and Britain was, then, a country where a lot of people still had handguns, old service revolvers and the like. You think, what has to happen to make them see sense but nothing does. They just shrug and carry on. And added to that they evidently have very little in the way of psychiatric care to treat disturbed individuals before they kill. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2022 21:15:34 GMT
Given that the "right to bear arms" is enshrined in our Constitution, it is unlikely to ever be removed or interpreted significantly differently than it historically has been.
Many in America realize its shortcoming and try to enact legislation that meets Constitutional muster at local, state, and federal levels, but it is very difficult to do so.
And at this point, millions of citizens have millions of guns, a condition that it is difficult to imagine changing even if the Constitution or gun laws would.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 21, 2022 21:33:14 GMT
That really doesn't hold water as an argument when you look at the whole amendment.
It says:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The necessity for a well regulated Militia ceased many, many decades ago. Therefore the need to allow people to keep and bear arms also ceased to be necessary let alone desirable.
There is nothing in the 2nd Amendment that protects the right of the citizen to own firearms given that there is no citizen militia.
It is time for the US to grow up and wean themselves off this addiction. Because it is exactly that. A murderous addiction.
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Post by harrietcraig on Nov 21, 2022 23:08:21 GMT
oxfordsimon, this American (and many other Americans) completely agrees with your interpretation of the Second Amendment. Unfortunately, our Supreme Court doesn’t agree. In a 2008 decision called District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court, by a 5-4 vote, held (in a majority opinion written by the late, unlamented Antonin Scalia), “The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.” A dissenting opinion written by Justice Stevens, on behalf of himself and the three other dissenting Justices, took what you and I agree is the best interpretation of the Second Amendment and said, “the Amendment is most naturally read to secure to the people a right to use and possess arms in conjunction with service in a well-regulated militia.” But the dissenting Justices were outvoted, 5-4, so the Scalia opinion is now the law of the land (and is unlikely to change any time soon, in view of the fact that Trump appointed three Justices to the Supreme Court since then). I can assure you that many Americans have “grown up” (as you put it), and regularly write to our members of Congress and sign petitions urging the enactment of sensible gun control laws. But as long as so many of our elected representatives remain in thrall to the gun lobby, and as long as the conservative majority on the Supreme Court lasts, I despair of that happening.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 21, 2022 23:34:59 GMT
I appreciate that there are many Americans who despair of the situation. But as a nation they keep electing representatives who accept the status quo (and that includes both main parties)
Unless and until that changes, gun related murders in the US will continue to shock the world.
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 23, 2022 21:40:50 GMT
This turd is now claiming to be non-binary with they/them pronouns...gurl...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2022 22:00:10 GMT
I appreciate that there are many Americans who despair of the situation. But as a nation they keep electing representatives who accept the status quo (and that includes both main parties) Unless and until that changes, gun related murders in the US will continue to shock the world. We don't keep electing them. They keep rigging the system to get re-elected. We have a broken electoral system sadly. |
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 23, 2022 22:25:03 GMT
I appreciate that there are many Americans who despair of the situation. But as a nation they keep electing representatives who accept the status quo (and that includes both main parties) Unless and until that changes, gun related murders in the US will continue to shock the world. We don't keep electing them. They keep rigging the system to get re-elected. We have a broken electoral system sadly. Half true, but c'mon a lot of people still vote for them and a lot of them vote for them because they will protect their right to bear arms. |
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Post by kathryn on Nov 24, 2022 8:47:02 GMT
This turd is now claiming to be non-binary with they/them pronouns...gurl... I thought we were are meant to take people at their word about this stuff? Or are we allowed to make exceptions for people who do things we don’t like now? It doesn’t stop being a homophobic hate crime just because they identify as non-binary. Trans people can be homophobes too! We don’t actually know what the claimed motive was yet - it may be like the school and workplace mass shootings (like the Walmart shooting yesterday), where the shooter lashes out at those in their own community for reasons unfathomable. |
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Post by karloscar on Nov 25, 2022 13:53:58 GMT
Apparently the killer's homophobic, former WWA fighter, former pornstar, Mormon, right wing conservative republican father was horrified that his estranged offspring might be gay by even being in a gay bar, but voiced his relief that they were just shooting at them! He'd never heard of them being non-binary, but somehow I don't think they're that close as a family! (You couldn't make it up! )
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 25, 2022 14:07:00 GMT
Apparently the killer's homophobic, former WWA fighter, former pornstar, Mormon, right wing conservative republican father was horrified that his estranged offspring might be gay by even being in a gay bar, but voiced his relief that they were just shooting at them! He'd never heard of them being non-binary, but somehow I don't think they're that close as a family! (You couldn't make it up! ) I don't believe for a second he's non-binary, that's just his next card in the game. |
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Post by Jan on Nov 25, 2022 15:41:44 GMT
Apparently the killer's homophobic, former WWA fighter, former pornstar, Mormon, right wing conservative republican father was horrified that his estranged offspring might be gay by even being in a gay bar, but voiced his relief that they were just shooting at them! He'd never heard of them being non-binary, but somehow I don't think they're that close as a family! (You couldn't make it up! ) I don't believe for a second he's non-binary, that's just his next card in the game. Well yes but Colorado has self-ID laws I think. |
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 25, 2022 15:57:52 GMT
I don't believe for a second he's non-binary, that's just his next card in the game. Well yes but Colorado has self-ID laws I think. It also has murder laws but he didn't really take those very seriously either... |
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Post by kathryn on Nov 25, 2022 16:40:12 GMT
He may or may not really be non-binary.
But as being ‘non-binary’ is something that only the individual can determine, and cannot be objectively determined (and doesn’t my even have a clear definition) if you legislate for Self-ID no-one can officially gainsay anyone who claims it.
Feminists who point out that this is easily exploitable by bad people usually get called transphobic.
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 25, 2022 16:45:53 GMT
He may or may not really be non-binary. But as being ‘non-binary’ is something that only the individual can determine, and cannot be objectively determined (and doesn’t my even have a clear definition) if you legislate for Self-ID no-one can officially gainsay anyone who claims it. Feminists who point out that this is easily exploitable by bad people usually get called transphobic. Which is the reason he is doing it because he knows it will cause more drama. |
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Post by Jan on Nov 25, 2022 17:13:25 GMT
Well yes but Colorado has self-ID laws I think. It also has murder laws but he didn't really take those very seriously either... But the point of the self ID laws is that you have no right to question his assertion - they literally say that only he can decide so there's no question about it, he's non-binary because he says he is. |
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Post by kathryn on Nov 25, 2022 17:25:20 GMT
He may or may not really be non-binary. But as being ‘non-binary’ is something that only the individual can determine, and cannot be objectively determined (and doesn’t my even have a clear definition) if you legislate for Self-ID no-one can officially gainsay anyone who claims it. Feminists who point out that this is easily exploitable by bad people usually get called transphobic. Which is the reason he is doing it because he knows it will cause more drama. We have no evidence of that at this stage. I can think of other possibilities - including that he is indeed gay, self-loathing (because look at his father’s attitude) and sees declaring a ‘non-binary’ identity as a way of *not* being gay. There’s certainly indications that this is not what you’d call a mentally stable individual. I don’t think we can assume some Machiavellian mastermind at work before a motive has even been established, let alone a mental health assessment completed. |
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 25, 2022 18:40:50 GMT
Which is the reason he is doing it because he knows it will cause more drama. We have no evidence of that at this stage. I can think of other possibilities - including that he is indeed gay, self-loathing (because look at his father’s attitude) and sees declaring a ‘non-binary’ identity as a way of *not* being gay. There’s certainly indications that this is not what you’d call a mentally stable individual. I don’t think we can assume some Machiavellian mastermind at work before a motive has even been established, let alone a mental health assessment completed. I don't think it's a mere coincidence. www.them.us/story/club-q-suspect-nonbinary-anderson-lee-aldrichAt the end of the day it does not matter what the motive is, he killed 5 people and injured 20 and would've killed a hell of a lot more if he was not almost instantly stopped the minute he entered the club. I'm sure his plan was to kill as many people as possible before the police gunned him down and he became a poster boy for the far right. If he'd been killed we'd know the full story by now. Now we will have to wait until the inevitable nation wide televised trial in 2 year time. |
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Post by kathryn on Nov 25, 2022 19:57:49 GMT
Motive matters: otherwise we wouldn’t have a class of murder called ‘hate crime’. There isn’t a thread about the Walmart shooting I mentioned above, where 6 people were murdered before the shooter killed himself. And there’s a reason for that. Sadly mass shootings are all too common: there have been 607 of them so far this year amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/11/23/us/2022-mass-shootings-tracking-second-highest/index.htmlSome shootings get a lot more attention than others. Usually because they feed into particular media and political culture war narratives, or manage to shock Americans out of their complacency temporarily. |
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Post by theatrefan62 on Nov 25, 2022 22:31:53 GMT
Sadly even if some gun legislation were to come in, i think the genie is so far out of the bottle now i fear its too late. It will take lifetimes before any meaningful difference is seen, if ever. There are so many guns out there now, plus it would likely go underground if restrictions were brought in making it even harder to trace them.
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