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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 2:33:44 GMT
Does anyone else think it strange that this Windrush story is being adapted and directed by white creatives? Isn’t that a tad insensitive? In this anniversary year when the Windrush generation were treated so appallingly, they now have to experience the appropriation of their stories by the National Theatre. Has RN become so up himself that he can’t see this?
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Post by hal9000 on Oct 4, 2018 2:44:38 GMT
I wouldn’t think it would make a difference if the production had a good deal of black artists in the production in various roles from top to toe. However given that the man in charge is directing, and given his record of late, it is a real surprise and not a good one. I’ll wait until judging but I am apprehensive.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 4:22:44 GMT
It could be very good but I would have thought a black director and writer would be a better choice for this. Just think about it: the writer and the director are two of the most powerful creatives on any production. He could perhaps have been more mindful of these issues, especially at this time.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Oct 4, 2018 8:44:25 GMT
Andrea Levy is closely involved in the project and must have given her approval in order for it to proceed.
Surely if she is happy, then that is more important. It is her work, her story that is being adapted and presented.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 10:03:11 GMT
Andrea Levy is closely involved in the project and must have given her approval in order for it to proceed. Surely if she is happy, then that is more important. It is her work, her story that is being adapted and presented. Wouldn’t you give your approval too? It’s the NT! The woman has to live, but that doesn’t make RNs actions OK. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Oct 4, 2018 10:16:16 GMT
Andrea Levy is closely involved in the project and must have given her approval in order for it to proceed. Surely if she is happy, then that is more important. It is her work, her story that is being adapted and presented. Wouldn’t you give your approval too? It’s the NT! The woman has to live, but that doesn’t make RNs actions OK. As a successful author, she could have withheld consent. But she didn't. She could have given permission - but kept her distance. But she didn't. She is closely involved. If the original creator of the work is happy with the NT team, then that has to be respected. She is a far better position to judge things than anyone on here. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 11:57:58 GMT
What is this? Some form of censorship. People have a right to ask questions. Even if Levy declared that it was ok to have an all white cast it would still be ok to ask the question. Even if Levy thought that RN was the only director in the country with the insight into that particular history it would still be ok - probably very important - to ask the question. When an artist is presented with such a juicy offer it is not that easy (probably impossible)to say no. Even if she asked for RN himself he could have suggested a more suitable director. Culture is important and has much wider implications than the individual artist. If the work was just about those three creatives then they could show it to their friends and family. As it is the Windrush generation will be witness to the fact that all their effort has not secured a fair future (certainly not in the arts where all the “good guys” work) for their descendants. The NT is just the tip of the iceberg. IMHO this should at least be co-written or directed by someone who would have also benefited from the resources offered by the NT. And it is possible to respect an artist’s decision while voicing a disagreement with it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 12:04:23 GMT
What is this? Some form of censorship. People have a right to ask questions. Even if Levy declared that it was ok to have an all white cast it would still be ok to ask the question. Even if Levy thought that RN was the only director in the country with the insight into that particular history it would still be ok - probably very important - to ask the question. When an artist is presented with such a juicy offer it is not that easy (probably impossible)to say no. Even if she asked for RN himself he could have suggested a more suitable director. Culture is important and has much wider implications than the individual artist. If the work was just about those three creatives then they could show it to their friends and family. As it is the Windrush generation will be witness to the fact that all their effort has not secured a fair future (certainly not in the arts where all the “good guys” work) for their descendants. The NT is just the tip of the iceberg. IMHO this should at least be co-written or directed by someone who would have also benefited from the resources offered by the NT. And it is possible to respect an artist’s decision while voicing a disagreement with it. I don't think anyone's told you to stop speaking, mate... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 12:06:30 GMT
What is this? Some form of censorship. People have a right to ask questions. Even if Levy declared that it was ok to have an all white cast it would still be ok to ask the question. Even if Levy thought that RN was the only director in the country with the insight into that particular history it would still be ok - probably very important - to ask the question. When an artist is presented with such a juicy offer it is not that easy (probably impossible)to say no. Even if she asked for RN himself he could have suggested a more suitable director. Culture is important and has much wider implications than the individual artist. If the work was just about those three creatives then they could show it to their friends and family. As it is the Windrush generation will be witness to the fact that all their effort has not secured a fair future (certainly not in the arts where all the “good guys” work) for their descendants. The NT is just the tip of the iceberg. IMHO this should at least be co-written or directed by someone who would have also benefited from the resources offered by the NT. And it is possible to respect an artist’s decision while voicing a disagreement with it. I don't think anyone's told you to stop speaking, mate... Thanks, mate... |
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Post by lynette on Oct 4, 2018 12:27:42 GMT
So you have to be black to write/direct/perform work about black people. Is that where we are now? Our attempts to redress the balance of white/ethnic presence in the arts has led to this division.
It is similar to the kind of thinking that says Shakespeare must have been a lawyer or gone abroad or suffered from insomnia ...or stabbed someone because he wrote so well about such things. As he did about being black, being Jewish and being a woman.
Of course personal experience and cultural environment feed into and inspire a writer/director/performer but it should not define the same and yet now it seems it is only acceptable if it does.
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Post by zahidf on Oct 4, 2018 12:45:45 GMT
In and of itself, there's nothing wrong with this being done by white creative's
However, there is a broader issue with inclusivity at the national of women and people of colour creatives/writers. (Including it being on the big stages rather than shunted off to the dorfman)
I'm reluctant to judge without seeing it or seeing if they talk about it, but the optics of it in that context is problematic
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Xanderl
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Not always very high value in terms of ticket yield or donations
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Post by Xanderl on Oct 4, 2018 13:09:41 GMT
Related: announcing the play by Lenny Henry which isn't on till 2020 has the effect of distracting from the fact that all the plays announced for 2019 other than one are by white writers.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 13:28:15 GMT
This issue is kicking off on Twitter among black creatives. I am supportive of this.
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Post by zahidf on Oct 4, 2018 13:32:21 GMT
Related: announcing the play by Lenny Henry which isn't on till 2020 has the effect of distracting from the fact that all the plays announced for 2019 other than one are by white writers. Considering how much of a commercial/artistic hit Nine Night was/is, there is clearly a market for that sort of thing. Must be better than another bloody David Hare |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 13:45:55 GMT
Related: announcing the play by Lenny Henry which isn't on till 2020 has the effect of distracting from the fact that all the plays announced for 2019 other than one are by white writers. Considering how much of a commercial/artistic hit Nine Night was/is, there is clearly a market for that sort of thing. Must be better than another bloody David Hare Xanderl makes a valid point. The strategy of mentioning Henry’s 2020 show covers the 2019 programme’s lack of diversity. These arguments have nothing to do with quality - One assumes/hopes they will be good, but arts council money is given to theatres to help them to encourage diversity and that is being abused here in quite a cynical way. I’m going to try to shut up now. - I’m supposed to be working! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 13:56:15 GMT
I am going to hazard a guess that I won't be bumping into you anytime soon at The Nash then @cleoskryker? I assume you will be protesting with your feet and not attending any show at The Nash until perhaps the Lenny Henry production?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 14:23:44 GMT
I am going to hazard a guess that I won't be bumping into you anytime soon at The Nash then @cleoskryker ? I assume you will be protesting with your feet and not attending any show at The Nash until perhaps the Lenny Henry production? Oh, I'll be there! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 14:37:14 GMT
I am going to hazard a guess that I won't be bumping into you anytime soon at The Nash then @cleoskryker ? I assume you will be protesting with your feet and not attending any show at The Nash until perhaps the Lenny Henry production? Oh, I'll be there! But why? Clearly you feel very strongly about this so why would you continue to support this theatre by continuing to attend until they make those real effective changes that you appear to want them to make? Isn't that just being complicit with the way the theatre is running at the moment? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 19:06:13 GMT
But why? Clearly you feel very strongly about this so why would you continue to support this theatre by continuing to attend until they make those real effective changes that you appear to want them to make? Isn't that just being complicit with the way the theatre is running at the moment? Ryan, I fear my solo protest carries no weight. And I love the NT. I love Theatre. Besides, you can’t protest if you don’t know what you’re up against. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 20:08:20 GMT
But why? Clearly you feel very strongly about this so why would you continue to support this theatre by continuing to attend until they make those real effective changes that you appear to want them to make? Isn't that just being complicit with the way the theatre is running at the moment? Ryan, I fear my solo protest carries no weight. And I love the NT. I love Theatre. Besides, you can’t protest if you don’t know what you’re up against. Ah I see. Oh well. |
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Oct 6, 2018 11:03:59 GMT
Related: announcing the play by Lenny Henry which isn't on till 2020 has the effect of distracting from the fact that all the plays announced for 2019 other than one are by white writers. Considering how much of a commercial/artistic hit Nine Night was/is, there is clearly a market for that sort of thing. Must be better than another bloody David Hare I’d rather see I Can’t Sing, the musical than another bloody David Hare at this rate. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2018 14:05:27 GMT
Ryan, I fear my solo protest carries no weight. And I love the NT. I love Theatre. Besides, you can’t protest if you don’t know what you’re up against. Ah I see. Oh well. If artists of colour decided to boycott the NT or the show I would definitely stop attending. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2018 18:15:05 GMT
If artists of colour decided to boycott the NT or the show I would definitely stop attending. Or you could be the person to lead the charge if it was something you feel strongly about? Someone always has to be the first. A pioneer! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2018 18:40:04 GMT
So you have to be black to write/direct/perform work about black people. Is that where we are now? y attempts to redress the balance of white/ethnic presence in the arts has led to this division. It is similar to the kind of thinking that says Shakespeare must have been a lawyer or gone abroad or suffered from insomnia ...or stabbed someone because he wrote so well about such things. As he did about being black, being Jewish and being a woman. Of course personal experience and cultural environment feed into and inspire a writer/director/performer but it should not define the same and yet now it seems it is only acceptable if it does. It is an incredible act of arrogance for Rufus Norris to take ownership of a Windrush story in the way that he is doing with this project. Some of the stuff he says about diversity and his role in it makes me sick. He has set himself up as the saviour of black people rather than giving them the means to save themselves. |
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Post by lynette on Oct 7, 2018 19:38:02 GMT
I'd be delighted if he set himself up as the saviour of the National Theatre.
To be serious Cleo I think you are being a bit hard on Rufus. And the play isn’t even on yet. But I appreciate you feel very strongly about this.
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Post by joem on Oct 7, 2018 20:07:50 GMT
So you have to be black to write/direct/perform work about black people. Is that where we are now? Our attempts to redress the balance of white/ethnic presence in the arts has led to this division. It is similar to the kind of thinking that says Shakespeare must have been a lawyer or gone abroad or suffered from insomnia ...or stabbed someone because he wrote so well about such things. As he did about being black, being Jewish and being a woman. Of course personal experience and cultural environment feed into and inspire a writer/director/performer but it should not define the same and yet now it seems it is only acceptable if it does. It is more or less where we are now and it's going that way with gender. I am appalled whenever and wherever there is discrimination against anyone for colour, creed, gender etc but what is often happening now is that discrimination is being perpetrated in the name of fairness and disguised as something positive. Helping someone is positive, penalising someone is not. History cannot be rewritten and historical wrongs cannot be corrected by creating new victims. Opportunities have to be created, equal opportunities. To discriminate against someone for the colour of their skin cannot be condoned whatever that colour might be. To say that someone deserves to be punished for what someone of their own colour did 200 years ago is simply racist. If I am only allowed to act/write/direct and be involved creatively in productions which fit my racial profile (apartheid scientists would have loved this) then should I also spend my money only on productions which fit my profile? And will at some point a future government legislate to ensure that we do not transgress by crossing racial divides? |
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Post by zahidf on Oct 7, 2018 22:01:39 GMT
Without getting too much into it, there are systematic and historical discriminations against people of colour and women in arts (and other areas of life).
Too try and remedy that, 'positive discrimination ' is one tool of many. If it's an 'person of colour ' story, I think it's a fair question to ask why a person of colour is not involved on the creative team. If they have a good answer to that, that's fine, but I think that's it's wrong to equate asking that question to the actual and historical roadblocks to people of colour and women in the industry.
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Post by meister on Apr 17, 2019 16:25:46 GMT
Anyone going to the first preview tonight? Interested to hear thoughts...
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Post by Snciole on Apr 18, 2019 7:57:30 GMT
I am off to see it tonight. Running time is 3 hours for some reason so I am already dreading it but thanks Young Patrons Membership for the promise of two free drinks later.
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Post by nash16 on Apr 18, 2019 8:57:56 GMT
Anyone going to the first preview tonight? Interested to hear thoughts... It's long. 3.5hrs last night. Out just after 11pm. |
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