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Post by digipal on Feb 26, 2020 19:36:49 GMT
Just started it's UK run last night
As a great Whitney fam, I'm going to see it in Brighton
There seems to be a lot of negativity online about the pricnciple of all this and exploitation from beyond the grave and all that
It seems to have been sanctioned by her estate and is it really any worse than going to one of the lookey soundy tours like Queen of the Night? Which I went to and loved by the way: as did the rest of the audience on the night I went, or Judy with Rene, etc, etc, etc. What upsets people about a hologram yet a filmic human recreation OK?
Someone said it's no different than buying one of her recordings now as I guess the money's going to the same place: if indeed it is
So many questions, I'm rambling LOL
What do people think?
I'm a bit conflicted but will give it a go anyway and the live backing singers, band and dancers with a hologram all sounds interesting
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Post by Marwood on Feb 26, 2020 20:45:54 GMT
If you’re happy with it, don’t feel ripped off (and can afford it without running up a massive card debt) then good luck to you, I’ve seen some truly terrible tribute acts over the last few years that would struggle to make it into Stars In Their Eyes and would have preferred to have seen holograms or just video clips on a big screen rather than what I got to see : I wouldn’t want to go somewhere the size of the O2 to see a hologram show but I’d be open to seeing something in a far more moderately sized venue.
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Post by Jon on Feb 26, 2020 21:01:53 GMT
At least a hologram is more likely to turn up on time!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 21:02:45 GMT
I can understand why people are against them at the moment, because the way they’re being presented is basically as a cash grab - especially where Whitney is concerned, knowing that she has no living descendants to benefit from this.
However the technology itself is interesting and shouldn’t just be dismissed. Sometime in the future I’d like to see the technology used to re-create concerts that people want to re-live or ‘experience’ in person. Take Madonna for example - The Blond Ambition Tour is one of the most revered pop concerts of all time: imagine if this technology could be used to put a 1990 version of Madonna back on stage doing the exact same show? Then there’s Michael Jackson - imagine if the technology develops to the point they can finally stage his This Is It show?
I think there is more merit in recreating something that was culturally significant, rather than inventing a new show. At least that way they could even use the live vocals that were recorded at the time, rather than album tracks.
Extending the concept out, would we go and see a theatre performance generated in such a way? I don’t mean a 12 month run of a holographic Olivier doing a show he was never in, but I’d imagine the technology could eventually be developed to a point where AI could take existing footage (such as the NT archive material) and repurpose it in a ‘3D’ way somehow - be it for commercial or academic gain.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Feb 26, 2020 21:23:23 GMT
Sounds naff.
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Post by horton on Feb 26, 2020 23:06:24 GMT
Instinctively I find it exploitative, dishonest and rather ghoulish- like a mass self-deception to pretend the dead star is really there- otherwise why not just watch a music video?
The artist has not given consent for her image/ identity to be used in this way- whereas she did consent to appear in the videos and tribute acts are actual people, who can be applauded for their own skills in live performance.
If this is where the future of "live" performance is going, I won't be partaking.
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Post by shady23 on Feb 27, 2020 8:29:49 GMT
It feels to me like when you go to a big concert and end up with such a bad view you end up watching it on the big screen. I do feel if I am watching a screen rather than a performer then what is the point.
It's more of an exhibition of technology than a performance. Not for me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 9:43:00 GMT
I caught the Buddy Holly/Roy Oberon hologram tour in Brighton. I’m not a massive fan of either but could not resist a gander (especially after being offered very good seats for a very good price).
It’s an odd night out and not completely unsuccessful. The creatives haven’t got it quite right (no in between songs natter, noencore) but the songs do carry the evening and u soon get caught up in the weird gig.
It works least when they move around so this will be fine for WH and all the band and and backing singers are real people so it’s not completely soulless
I agree this format would work best with the Jacksons and Madonna’s best of all, however the technology isn’t there yet and it looks odd as hell when they move around.
I think it’s totally worth going if u a) get seats within the first 8 rows b) have more money than sense c) get great seats at really REALLY cheap prices
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Post by The Matthew on Feb 27, 2020 12:19:43 GMT
There are a few articles around that suggest it's done with "body doubles and CGI face mapping", but realistically there are only a few things I can think of that they can do:
1) Pepper's Ghost: essentially a flat image appearing to float in space.
2) A look-alike performer seen from too far away to tell the difference, with real-time CGI used to replace the face for larger images on screens.
3) (Possibly) A look-alike performer with real-time CGI projected on to their face with tracking as they move. I don't know how well this would work, as you can't remove the real features of the performer this way.
4) Not bother, and rely on the audience thinking "we paid a fortune for this; no way are we admitting to having been played for suckers".
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Post by intoanewlife on Feb 27, 2020 12:36:34 GMT
I saw the Cirque Jacko show where they use it and I thought it was really clever and quite moving because it was of him as a child. But then it was only for like half a song, I don't know if I could last a whole concert of it.
The entire music industry is pretty much based around exploiting people so this really shouldn't come as a surprise.
It is a bit ghoulish but hey people pay money to see much worse and more offensive stuff.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Feb 27, 2020 12:40:49 GMT
Isn’t this what the long awaited Abba “reunion” concerts are going to be using? Björn said recently that it was taking such a long time because they couldn’t get the technology right.
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Post by digipal on Feb 27, 2020 18:49:57 GMT
Isn’t this what the long awaited Abba “reunion” concerts are going to be using? Björn said recently that it was taking such a long time because they couldn’t get the technology right. Yes, I believe their calling them "Abbatars" |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 11:54:27 GMT
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Post by Mr Snow on Feb 28, 2020 11:58:49 GMT
On another Forum there's a current discussion of a Maria Callas Hologram tour doing the rounds in the States. Same issues.
Conclusion its not for true fans or sceptics. But for a new audience who want to see what the fuss was about, it seems to work OK.
This is how the technology worked for that tour.
"The visual part of the Callas hologram is created through the acting of a “body double” who imitates the style of Callas. Facial features and other aspects of the performance are later changed through the use of computer-generated imagery (CGI)."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 12:28:07 GMT
They have done Elvis on the big screen but if they have done a Buddy Holly hologram tour then there must be technology to create fresh characters as Buddy died over 60 years ago. The Beatles, Abba, Sinatra etc would seem logical ones to do in the future.
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Post by intoanewlife on Feb 28, 2020 13:33:48 GMT
Honestly I'd rather they do this with beloved singers than go through anymore jukebox musicals...
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Feb 28, 2020 14:06:36 GMT
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Post by tonyloco on Feb 28, 2020 15:01:37 GMT
They have done Elvis on the big screen but if they have done a Buddy Holly hologram tour then there must be technology to create fresh characters as Buddy died over 60 years ago. The Beatles, Abba, Sinatra etc would seem logical ones to do in the future.
I saw Callas live six times in the early 1960s: four times in opera (Tosca and Norma) and twice at the Royal Festival Hall in concert, all of which were memorable occasions. Callas's amazing charisma and persona worked their magic every time, and the singing wasn't bad either, apart from the last disastrous recital with Giuseppe di Stefano when her voice had almost deserted her, but she still gave a wonderful performance of being the great diva!
I found the hologram concert remarkably uneffective. The initial surprise of seeing the hologram image walk onstage soon wore off and the longer the concert went on, the less interesting it became, especially as one could see some of the on-stage orchestral players through Callas's head! My overall judgement was that I would have preferred just to listen to the recordings played on top quality reproduction equipment than look at the phoney hologram image pretending to sing. The people I was with who had never seen Callas live were also not particularly impressed.
As a PS I should say that the two productions that I have seen of Terence McNally's 1995 play Master Class with Patti LuPone and Tyne Daly gave to me a much more vivid picture of Callas, both as a woman and as a performer, than the hologram concert.
Whether the Whitney Houston Hologram Tour will be more successful remains to be seen. |
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Post by kathryn on Feb 28, 2020 19:24:47 GMT
I can see how there would still be some value in the communal experience of going to a concert for fans of an artist, but not sure what the difference is between a hologram and a live accompaniment to film footage of them singing.
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Post by xanady on Feb 29, 2020 10:19:17 GMT
Will Gompertz’s review on the Beeb is very entertaining in a biting and sarcastic way....apparently some of the crowd in Sheffield took offence at the announcement at the top of the show about it being a live experience by Whitney (!) and then resorted to shouting out such things as ‘blow me a kiss’ and ‘get off!’ etc at the hologram...oh dear! He says that most of the entertainment was provided by the affronted crowd rather than the bizarre and detached hologrammy-thing on stage.The irony of this entire venture is quite mind-boggling.People are choosing to pay up to £70 for this?
As a side-note,I’ve only ever been to Sheffield once,but remember a comedy stand-up many years ago describing it as the kind of place where the locals still stop in the street,point at the sky and exclaim in astonishment - ‘Look,a plane!’
Can’t be true,surely?😂
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Post by tonyloco on Feb 29, 2020 10:52:19 GMT
I can see how there would still be some value in the communal experience of going to a concert for fans of an artist, but not sure what the difference is between a hologram and a live accompaniment to film footage of them singing.
And of course the hologram, despite being meant to present the actual person corporeally, is totally artificial and robotic and can only do what has been captured in the digital recording. This became very apparent when the Callas hologram continued to acknowledge applause that had long since stopped. I am not surprised that the audience at the Houston concert in Sheffield began to make fun of the hologram and of course the hologram was unable to respond in any way, which would have made the whole thing even more ludicrous.
I have just looked at the video on YouTube of the Callas hologram concert and remembered that there were a couple of very impressive technical moments, the best being at the end of the Card Scene from Carmen when Callas threw the pack of cards she had been holding up into the air and the individual cards fluttered down around her to the ground. That was magical, so I can imagine holograms being used for special effects in operas or musicals but not to sustain a complete concert performance. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Feb 29, 2020 12:14:53 GMT
I can see how there would still be some value in the communal experience of going to a concert for fans of an artist, but not sure what the difference is between a hologram and a live accompaniment to film footage of them singing. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2020 14:47:05 GMT
They have done Elvis on the big screen but if they have done a Buddy Holly hologram tour then there must be technology to create fresh characters as Buddy died over 60 years ago. The Beatles, Abba, Sinatra etc would seem logical ones to do in the future.
I saw Callas live six times in the early 1960s: four times in opera (Tosca and Norma) and twice at the Royal Festival Hall in concert, all of which were memorable occasions. Callas's amazing charisma and persona worked their magic every time, and the singing wasn't bad either, apart from the last disastrous recital with Giuseppe di Stefano when her voice had almost deserted her, but she still gave a wonderful performance of being the great diva!
I found the hologram concert remarkably uneffective. The initial surprise of seeing the hologram image walk onstage soon wore off and the longer the concert went on, the less interesting it became, especially as one could see some of the on-stage orchestral players through Callas's head! My overall judgement was that I would have preferred just to listen to the recordings played on top quality reproduction equipment than look at the phoney hologram image pretending to sing. The people I was with who had never seen Callas live were also not particularly impressed.
As a PS I should say that the two productions that I have seen of Terence McNally's 1995 play Master Class with Patti LuPone and Tyne Daly gave to me a much more vivid picture of Callas, both as a woman and as a performer, than the hologram concert.
Whether the Whitney Houston Hologram Tour will be more successful remains to be seen.Thanks for the great insight and also amazing to read that you saw Maria live a number of times getting on for 60 years ago and can share your memories with us. |
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Post by tonyloco on Feb 29, 2020 16:04:57 GMT
Thanks for the great insight and also amazing to read that you saw Maria live a number of times getting on for 60 years ago and can share your memories with us. Thanks brexiteer for those kind words. Sharing my memories is about all I can manage to do these days as the physical decline of old age sets in, but it is always a pleasure to post something on Theatre Board. I presume you have seen what I had to say recently about going to Glyndebourne, and I have put in my two penneth about productions of Wagner's Ring cycle. I mentioned nothing specific about the Ring but I can say that my first Ring cycle was at Covent Garden in 1960 conducted by Rudolf Kempe and it was the musical experience I still remember vividly rather than the theatrical or dramatic one, which I think I found serviceable but nothing remarkable. |
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Post by TallPaul on Feb 29, 2020 18:48:24 GMT
I can assure you, xanady, that nobody in Sheffield has time to look at the sky. We are all too busy creating product for theatres up and down the country - like Jamie, Life of Pi and Standing at the Sky's Edge. 🙂 Before that, we were all too busy making the steel that won two world wars. And until the 1970s, there was no sky anyway, cos of all the smoke! |
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Post by xanady on Feb 29, 2020 21:12:21 GMT
The reviews for this have been universally bad as far as I can see,but on some dates it hasn’t sold at all well.I reckon this is going to pop up on the seat-filler sites any day now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 11:36:13 GMT
Thanks for the great insight and also amazing to read that you saw Maria live a number of times getting on for 60 years ago and can share your memories with us. Thanks brexiteer for those kind words. Sharing my memories is about all I can manage to do these days as the physical decline of old age sets in, but it is always a pleasure to post something on Theatre Board. I presume you have seen what I had to say recently about going to Glyndebourne, and I have put in my two penneth about productions of Wagner's Ring cycle. I mentioned nothing specific about the Ring but I can say that my first Ring cycle was at Covent Garden in 1960 conducted by Rudolf Kempe and it was the musical experience I still remember vividly rather than the theatrical or dramatic one, which I think I found serviceable but nothing remarkable. Hearing from people who have seen long departed performers from any genre is always of interest as no doubt these are some performances that a lot of us wish we had "been there to see".
I dabble in some classical and opera performances and from time to time I bump into a gentleman who is well into his 70's who always talks about seeing stuff from the era you have talked about and he even keeps a record of very concert he has been to so he can check how many times he has seen a particular piece. He is always very interesting to talk to in order to hear how he views each interpretation.
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Post by xanady on Mar 5, 2020 7:56:47 GMT
Against all expectations,I had a wonderful time at this event last night.Was lucky enough to see Whitney herself on tour at the height of her powers many moons ago and last night was a great reminder of that powerhouse voice.
Most of the arena tarped/curtained off and a lot of comps,but those who were there seemed to have a great time.
Hologram works best when it is alone on stage imo so that there is no stark visual contrast with the ‘living’ dancers.
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Post by digipal on Mar 5, 2020 20:25:14 GMT
Against all expectations,I had a wonderful time at this event last night.Was lucky enough to see Whitney herself on tour at the height of her powers many moons ago and last night was a great reminder of that powerhouse voice. Most of the arena tarped/curtained off and a lot of comps,but those who were there seemed to have a great time. Hologram works best when it is alone on stage imo so that there is no stark visual contrast with the ‘living’ dancers. Thanks for the review, I'm going on Saturday in Brighton so will report back as well |
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