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Post by londonpostie on Dec 13, 2019 12:19:57 GMT
I need a visa to go to the USA, doesn't seen entirely unreasonable.
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Post by viserys on Dec 13, 2019 12:44:28 GMT
I need a visa to go to the USA, doesn't seen entirely unreasonable. If you're a British citizen, you don't need a visa. You are part of the visa-waiver ESTA programme that's more like a pre-arrival clearance thing. And it could in theory be free, but they like to charge $14 which was supposed to support the US tourism industry. I could see something similar happen here post-Brexit, but $14 every two years wouldn't break the bank all things considered. I assume though that they will wrangle something free as they do with other European nations outside the EU, that will stamp your passport for free. Even many countries far outside Europe let people enter for free.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 13, 2019 12:50:12 GMT
A couple of other divisions that will now be the focus of attention and action.
The Union is under threat, maybe after hundreds of years to be brought down by a temporary tiff with Europe. Scotland looks lost, Ireland on the way, Wales would surely follow. I've long thought that the different nations should resolve into a looser federal system and maybe it will take the offer of that to keep the Union together. Without that sort of offer then hundreds of years of united achievement will be just history.
A much more knotty problem, the age war. It used to be class that divided the country but not in the last decade. The big divide in voting is age, young labour, old conservative. I never believed there would be a rising up on class lines but the prospect of the young fighting back against old voters who are dictating their future? It seems, at this point in time, to be more likely to me. Even if a government tries to do something it will still be old voters dictating to young voters. If I was looking for a flashpoint over the next few years that's where I'd suggest.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 13:07:52 GMT
It’s an interesting thought, and on the flip side, I wonder what the impact on free movement had on west end sales? It’s no secret the west end relies on tourism. I don’t think people will stop visiting the UK, but I’d expect some form of impact. Very little, I think. The Middle classes moved around easily before we joined the EEC and will presumably continue to do so, and the UK will be a cheap destination.. The idea of visiting a foreign country for leisure wasn’t necessarily accessible to the masses prior to joint the EEC. Yes, some rich folk could achieve it in the 1960s, but international travel wasn’t the norm. Theatre has moved beyond being something only the middle classes can afford and prior to the 1980s the idea of a long term long running show was alien - which I assume means there wasn’t enough tourists to support them in the same way they do now (among other factors behind a long runner, and yes, I’m ignoring The Mousetrap). So I suppose I was just questioning if the impact of EU membership on west end sales over the decades rather than suggesting a drop in sales as a result of Brexit.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 13:22:34 GMT
I know it looks like a decent part of the country is finally united in one way (which hasn’t happened in a long time) It really doesn't. The Tory vote is 43.6% (with one seat left to declare), which gets them a massive majority of seats because of our stupid first past the post system, but certainly doesn't amount to a majority of the country being united. Unless you meant the approx. 2/3 who were united against Corbyn. Please don’t twist my words into something that allows you to call out yet another result you’re not happy with. 43.6% of people is a decent part of the country. I never mentioned a majority or the number of seats. The full sentence, that you’ve only quoted part of, actually concludes by suggesting the Tory win increases the divide between parliament and the electorate.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 13:27:29 GMT
What happened last night was probably what people thought should have happened in 2017. The Labour Party has a long way back having been wiped out in a lot of areas. There are some seats that they will win back but with the SNP having a strong hold in Scotland and parties not contesting the 18 or so NI seats. Labour will be hard pressed to win well over 300 seats in England and Wales alone.
People calling for JC to resign immediately doesn't make sense as with their Deputy Leader having stood down to leave the Party totally leaderless with an un elected interim put in place would make matters worse. I don't see how JC can stay on for any length but let the party take stock over Xmas and New Year and then hold a spring leadership election to fill the two top jobs.
The Party may have moved so far to the left that their rump doesn't want to go back to the more centrist left ground and after they have suffered big election defeats the remainder of any party tends to be the more hardcore element.
Hopefully Brexit can now be delivered and we have a broad One Nation Conservative Government who can take us forward.
There will be calls for another Scottish Referendum but the way Sturgeon and co did all they could to block Brexit I don't see Boris allowing them another vote any time soon.
I was sad to see Dennis Skinner lose his seat after 49 years as although my politics are very different from his, I respected him for his principles and he was hugely entertaining to watch in Parliament.
Jo Swinson losing her seat was funny and I'm not making any further Jungle jokes but their is a rumour that she and Anna Soubry are trying to get a last minute panto gig as the Ugly Sisters in a production of Cinderella.
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Post by Dave25 on Dec 13, 2019 13:33:56 GMT
The real outcome of this election: the Leave/Remain share of the vote is as follows:
▪️Leave 47%
▪️Remain 53%
And a vast majority of the people voting against the Conservatives. The number of votes for Labour and Libdems combined is already towering above the number of votes for Conservatives. And then I'm not even counting the SNP and other parties.
It's amazing how flawed this seat system is. Resulting in seats that do not represent the will of the people.
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Post by olliebean on Dec 13, 2019 14:03:51 GMT
It really doesn't. The Tory vote is 43.6% (with one seat left to declare), which gets them a massive majority of seats because of our stupid first past the post system, but certainly doesn't amount to a majority of the country being united. Unless you meant the approx. 2/3 who were united against Corbyn. Please don’t twist my words into something that allows you to call out yet another result you’re not happy with. 43.6% of people is a decent part of the country. I never mentioned a majority or the number of seats. The full sentence, that you’ve only quoted part of, actually concludes by suggesting the Tory win increases the divide between parliament and the electorate. I'm not sure what point you were making, then, because the Tory vote in 2017 was 42.4% - was that not a decent part of the country? On that basis, I doubt there's ever not been a decent part of the country united behind one thing or another. The country as a whole is still very divided, though, and this election certainly hasn't helped with that.
(I apologise for not quoting you in full btw; my intention was brevity, not distortion.)
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Post by olliebean on Dec 13, 2019 14:12:52 GMT
The real outcome of this election: the Leave/Remain share of the vote is as follows: ▪️Leave 47% ▪️Remain 53% And a vast majority of the people voting against the Conservatives. The number of votes for Labour and Libdems combined is already towering above the number of votes for Conservatives. And then I'm not even counting the SNP and other parties. It's amazing how flawed this seat system is. Resulting in seats that do not represent the will of the people. Labour + Lib-Dem is "towering" above the Conservatives by only 0.1%. And although it's probable Labour's second referendum would have resulted in a Remain win, you can't call them an unambiguously Remain party. Much as I'd love this result to be an indication of a 6% majority for Remain, I don't think it's that clear cut.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Dec 13, 2019 14:40:20 GMT
What happened last night was probably what people thought should have happened in 2017. The Labour Party has a long way back having been wiped out in a lot of areas. There are some seats that they will win back but with the SNP having a strong hold in Scotland and parties not contesting the 18 or so NI seats. Labour will be hard pressed to win well over 300 seats in England and Wales alone. People calling for JC to resign immediately doesn't make sense as with their Deputy Leader having stood down to leave the Party totally leaderless with an un elected interim put in place would make matters worse. I don't see how JC can stay on for any length but let the party take stock over Xmas and New Year and then hold a spring leadership election to fill the two top jobs. The Party may have moved so far to the left that their rump doesn't want to go back to the more centrist left ground and after they have suffered big election defeats the remainder of any party tends to be the more hardcore element. Hopefully Brexit can now be delivered and we have a broad One Nation Conservative Government who can take us forward. There will be calls for another Scottish Referendum but the way Sturgeon and co did all they could to block Brexit I don't see Boris allowing them another vote any time soon. I was sad to see Dennis Skinner lose his seat after 49 years as although my politics are very different from his, I respected him for his principles and he was hugely entertaining to watch in Parliament. Jo Swinson losing her seat was funny and I'm not making any further Jungle jokes but their is a rumour that she and Anna Soubry are trying to get a last minute panto gig as the Ugly Sisters in a production of Cinderella. I don't think that is quite true. I immediately thought the same I will admit. Johnson for (at least) ten years does feel abhorrent. But I think the Labour party could win back lots of the seats lost in the Midlands and North East in particular. Don't think they won a seat with a referendum result of vote Leave >55%. But they lost seats votes predominantly to the Brexit party, with small percentages to Tory, Lib Dem and SNP. These votes could be up for grabs again at the next election. We will have to see who takes over the Labour Party and the state of the UK after five more years of Boris. Five years could seem a very long time in some of the poorest constituencies in the country if some of the Brexit warnings come true. Think I heard a stat that the Tory vote only went up 1.42% with massive swings to their party. So there could be lots to play for at the next election. Have to see where we are in five years time.
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Post by londonpostie on Dec 13, 2019 15:00:12 GMT
The real outcome of this election: the Leave/Remain share of the vote is as follows: ▪️Leave 47% ▪️Remain 53% And a vast majority of the people voting against the Conservatives. The number of votes for Labour and Libdems combined is already towering above the number of votes for Conservatives. And then I'm not even counting the SNP and other parties. It's amazing how flawed this seat system is. Resulting in seats that do not represent the will of the people. The will of the people as expressed in the referendum?
It seems the percentages and the polling and the marching and the online petitions all indicate 'remain' until it comes to am actual ballot box?
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 13, 2019 15:22:19 GMT
What happened last night was probably what people thought should have happened in 2017. The Labour Party has a long way back having been wiped out in a lot of areas. There are some seats that they will win back but with the SNP having a strong hold in Scotland and parties not contesting the 18 or so NI seats. Labour will be hard pressed to win well over 300 seats in England and Wales alone. People calling for JC to resign immediately doesn't make sense as with their Deputy Leader having stood down to leave the Party totally leaderless with an un elected interim put in place would make matters worse. I don't see how JC can stay on for any length but let the party take stock over Xmas and New Year and then hold a spring leadership election to fill the two top jobs. The Party may have moved so far to the left that their rump doesn't want to go back to the more centrist left ground and after they have suffered big election defeats the remainder of any party tends to be the more hardcore element. Hopefully Brexit can now be delivered and we have a broad One Nation Conservative Government who can take us forward. There will be calls for another Scottish Referendum but the way Sturgeon and co did all they could to block Brexit I don't see Boris allowing them another vote any time soon. I was sad to see Dennis Skinner lose his seat after 49 years as although my politics are very different from his, I respected him for his principles and he was hugely entertaining to watch in Parliament. Jo Swinson losing her seat was funny and I'm not making any further Jungle jokes but their is a rumour that she and Anna Soubry are trying to get a last minute panto gig as the Ugly Sisters in a production of Cinderella. Wow, that last paragraph is out and out nasty.
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 13, 2019 15:29:26 GMT
What happened last night was probably what people thought should have happened in 2017. The Labour Party has a long way back having been wiped out in a lot of areas. There are some seats that they will win back but with the SNP having a strong hold in Scotland and parties not contesting the 18 or so NI seats. Labour will be hard pressed to win well over 300 seats in England and Wales alone. People calling for JC to resign immediately doesn't make sense as with their Deputy Leader having stood down to leave the Party totally leaderless with an un elected interim put in place would make matters worse. I don't see how JC can stay on for any length but let the party take stock over Xmas and New Year and then hold a spring leadership election to fill the two top jobs. The Party may have moved so far to the left that their rump doesn't want to go back to the more centrist left ground and after they have suffered big election defeats the remainder of any party tends to be the more hardcore element. Hopefully Brexit can now be delivered and we have a broad One Nation Conservative Government who can take us forward. There will be calls for another Scottish Referendum but the way Sturgeon and co did all they could to block Brexit I don't see Boris allowing them another vote any time soon. I was sad to see Dennis Skinner lose his seat after 49 years as although my politics are very different from his, I respected him for his principles and he was hugely entertaining to watch in Parliament. Jo Swinson losing her seat was funny and I'm not making any further Jungle jokes but their is a rumour that she and Anna Soubry are trying to get a last minute panto gig as the Ugly Sisters in a production of Cinderella. Wow, that last paragraph is out and out nasty. As Boris Johnston said that if the Conservative Party doesn’t leave the EU, the Brexit vote will be split between the Tories and the Brexit party and Labour will win the general election. The exact opposite happened yesterday, with the remain vote split between Labour and the Libs, with the Conservatives. Coming straight through the middle and victorious.
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Post by olliebean on Dec 13, 2019 15:31:47 GMT
I don't think that is quite true. I immediately thought the same I will admit. Johnson for (at least) ten years does feel abhorrent. But I think the Labour party could win back lots of the seats lost in the Midlands and North East in particular. Don't think they won a seat with a referendum result of vote Leave >55%. But they lost seats votes predominantly to the Brexit party, with small percentages to Tory, Lib Dem and SNP. These votes could be up for grabs again at the next election. We will have to see who takes over the Labour Party and the state of the UK after five more years of Boris. Five years could seem a very long time in some of the poorest constituencies in the country if some of the Brexit warnings come true. Think I heard a stat that the Tory vote only went up 1.42% with massive swings to their party. So there could be lots to play for at the next election. Have to see where we are in five years time. My worry is that where we'll be in five years will be with Labour's chance of winning anything back much reduced through gerrymandering changes to the constituency boundaries. Fully expecting the Tories to bring in this, voter ID, and anything else they can think of to minimise the chance of a democratic win for anyone else.
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Post by intoanewlife on Dec 13, 2019 15:37:54 GMT
They are allowed to choose and most of them choose to wear the burka of the own free will.
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Post by Dave25 on Dec 13, 2019 15:40:28 GMT
Labour + Lib-Dem is "towering" above the Conservatives by only 0.1%. I still think it's peculiar that when you have a majority of voters voting against Conservatives (so a minority for Conservatives), or basically, more votes for the opposition, the Conservatives can win so much seats with a minority vote. This system is totally wrong in my opinion. Now we have the majority of the country disappointed. And stuck with a government that a minority voted for.
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Post by Dave25 on Dec 13, 2019 15:50:10 GMT
" until it comes to am actual ballot box?"
Given the fact that a majority of all voters voted anti Conservatives I would say it reflects the polling, the marching and the online petitions. It's just the seat system that is extremely flawed, as it results in the opposite of what a majority of the country wants.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 15:51:52 GMT
What happened last night was probably what people thought should have happened in 2017. The Labour Party has a long way back having been wiped out in a lot of areas. There are some seats that they will win back but with the SNP having a strong hold in Scotland and parties not contesting the 18 or so NI seats. Labour will be hard pressed to win well over 300 seats in England and Wales alone. People calling for JC to resign immediately doesn't make sense as with their Deputy Leader having stood down to leave the Party totally leaderless with an un elected interim put in place would make matters worse. I don't see how JC can stay on for any length but let the party take stock over Xmas and New Year and then hold a spring leadership election to fill the two top jobs. The Party may have moved so far to the left that their rump doesn't want to go back to the more centrist left ground and after they have suffered big election defeats the remainder of any party tends to be the more hardcore element. Hopefully Brexit can now be delivered and we have a broad One Nation Conservative Government who can take us forward. There will be calls for another Scottish Referendum but the way Sturgeon and co did all they could to block Brexit I don't see Boris allowing them another vote any time soon. I was sad to see Dennis Skinner lose his seat after 49 years as although my politics are very different from his, I respected him for his principles and he was hugely entertaining to watch in Parliament. Jo Swinson losing her seat was funny and I'm not making any further Jungle jokes but their is a rumour that she and Anna Soubry are trying to get a last minute panto gig as the Ugly Sisters in a production of Cinderella. Wow, that last paragraph is out and out nasty. The last paragraph is a joke. Neither lady is ugly but they are called the Ugly Sisters in panto. Some places call them wicked Stepsisters when they are played by females. There was a similar joke about the House of York offering themselves up as a Panto Package as Baron Hardup, the Wicked Stepmother and the Ugly Sisters. There is a great meme going around of Jo Swinson in the window of the 2nd hand shop from the Bagpuss TV series which might amuse people.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 15:53:48 GMT
Wow, that last paragraph is out and out nasty. As Boris Johnston said that if the Conservative Party doesn’t leave the EU, the Brexit vote will be split between the Tories and the Brexit party and Labour will win the general election. The exact opposite happened yesterday, with the remain vote split between Labour and the Libs, with the Conservatives. Coming straight through the middle and victorious. The Brexit Party potentially took votes away from Labour in seats they stood in if people couldn't bring themselves to vote Tory so voted for a more right wing party.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 15:55:06 GMT
They are allowed to choose and most of them choose to wear the burka of the own free will. Boris with burkas, JC with the Jewish issue and Swinson lost her seat!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 15:56:35 GMT
I don't think that is quite true. I immediately thought the same I will admit. Johnson for (at least) ten years does feel abhorrent. But I think the Labour party could win back lots of the seats lost in the Midlands and North East in particular. Don't think they won a seat with a referendum result of vote Leave >55%. But they lost seats votes predominantly to the Brexit party, with small percentages to Tory, Lib Dem and SNP. These votes could be up for grabs again at the next election. We will have to see who takes over the Labour Party and the state of the UK after five more years of Boris. Five years could seem a very long time in some of the poorest constituencies in the country if some of the Brexit warnings come true. Think I heard a stat that the Tory vote only went up 1.42% with massive swings to their party. So there could be lots to play for at the next election. Have to see where we are in five years time. My worry is that where we'll be in five years will be with Labour's chance of winning anything back much reduced through gerrymandering changes to the constituency boundaries. Fully expecting the Tories to bring in this, voter ID, and anything else they can think of to minimise the chance of a democratic win for anyone else. There was supposed to be some consistency review coming through but I don't know what happened to it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 16:04:31 GMT
What happened last night was probably what people thought should have happened in 2017. The Labour Party has a long way back having been wiped out in a lot of areas. There are some seats that they will win back but with the SNP having a strong hold in Scotland and parties not contesting the 18 or so NI seats. Labour will be hard pressed to win well over 300 seats in England and Wales alone. People calling for JC to resign immediately doesn't make sense as with their Deputy Leader having stood down to leave the Party totally leaderless with an un elected interim put in place would make matters worse. I don't see how JC can stay on for any length but let the party take stock over Xmas and New Year and then hold a spring leadership election to fill the two top jobs. The Party may have moved so far to the left that their rump doesn't want to go back to the more centrist left ground and after they have suffered big election defeats the remainder of any party tends to be the more hardcore element. Hopefully Brexit can now be delivered and we have a broad One Nation Conservative Government who can take us forward. There will be calls for another Scottish Referendum but the way Sturgeon and co did all they could to block Brexit I don't see Boris allowing them another vote any time soon. I was sad to see Dennis Skinner lose his seat after 49 years as although my politics are very different from his, I respected him for his principles and he was hugely entertaining to watch in Parliament. Jo Swinson losing her seat was funny and I'm not making any further Jungle jokes but their is a rumour that she and Anna Soubry are trying to get a last minute panto gig as the Ugly Sisters in a production of Cinderella. I don't think that is quite true. I immediately thought the same I will admit. Johnson for (at least) ten years does feel abhorrent. But I think the Labour party could win back lots of the seats lost in the Midlands and North East in particular. Don't think they won a seat with a referendum result of vote Leave >55%. But they lost seats votes predominantly to the Brexit party, with small percentages to Tory, Lib Dem and SNP. These votes could be up for grabs again at the next election. We will have to see who takes over the Labour Party and the state of the UK after five more years of Boris. Five years could seem a very long time in some of the poorest constituencies in the country if some of the Brexit warnings come true. Think I heard a stat that the Tory vote only went up 1.42% with massive swings to their party. So there could be lots to play for at the next election. Have to see where we are in five years time. In 2005 Labour got 355 seats and the Tories 198 and in 2010 Labour were out of power so in 5 years time we could see a change of government. I had said in the run up to yesterday that whoever won this time, the other major party was likely to win next time. For Labour now to get a majority next time would be hard but they got 40% only 2 years ago so votes are there. The key is the tight leader. Sir Kier Starmer is probably the sharpest guy in their top team but would the unions back a Sir and a QC type guy. They might go for a younger person if they will have 5 years to grow in opposition. This is where the loss of people of Chuka's quality is a huge blow to Labour. Could they even reach out to David Miliband to return? He is still only 54 years old but would he want to return to frontline politics given he has a very well paid job in NY.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 13, 2019 16:17:31 GMT
In 2005 Labour got 355 seats and the Tories 198 and in 2010 Labour were out of power so in 5 years time we could see a change of government. I had said in the run up to yesterday that whoever won this time, the other major party was likely to win next time. For Labour now to get a majority next time would be hard but they got 40% only 2 years ago so votes are there. The key is the tight leader. Sir Kier Starmer is probably the sharpest guy in their top team but would the unions back a Sir and a QC type guy. They might go for a younger person if they will have 5 years to grow in opposition. This is where the loss of people of Chuka's quality is a huge blow to Labour. Could they even reach out to David Miliband to return? He is still only 54 years old but would he want to return to frontline politics given he has a very well paid job in NY. There is also a fair chance that the left will refuse to cede power. In such a case, what would the centrist MPs do? I doubt they will just wait it out yet again.
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Post by olliebean on Dec 13, 2019 16:28:50 GMT
I still think it's peculiar that when you have a majority of voters voting against Conservatives (so a minority for Conservatives), or basically, more votes for the opposition, the Conservatives can win so much seats with a minority vote. This system is totally wrong in my opinion. Now we have the majority of the country disappointed. And stuck with a government that a minority voted for. It works both ways. Labour only had 43.2% of the vote in 1997, which gave them a majority 100 greater than the Tories have now. So it's an unfair system whoever wins. I think there's only ever been one occasion when a majority party in Parliament had a majority share of the vote, way back in 1931 - and even then, the Tories got 76% of the seats with only 55% of the votes.
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Post by n1david on Dec 13, 2019 16:37:14 GMT
Wow, that last paragraph is out and out nasty. The last paragraph is a joke. Neither lady is ugly but they are called the Ugly Sisters in panto. Some places call them wicked Stepsisters when they are played by females. There was a similar joke about the House of York offering themselves up as a Panto Package as Baron Hardup, the Wicked Stepmother and the Ugly Sisters. Gosh with "jokes" like that you could write a Telegraph column.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 16:59:30 GMT
The real outcome of this election: the Leave/Remain share of the vote is as follows: ▪️Leave 47% ▪️Remain 53% And a vast majority of the people voting against the Conservatives. The number of votes for Labour and Libdems combined is already towering above the number of votes for Conservatives. And then I'm not even counting the SNP and other parties. It's amazing how flawed this seat system is. Resulting in seats that do not represent the will of the people. That’s not the real outcome of the election at all, as Labour (the UK’s 2nd largest party) refused to state if they were a remain or leave party. A vote for Labour was a vote for a second referendum, not a vote to remain in the EU. However I agree that the system is flawed, but the truth of the matter is that the conservatives won both the largest number of seats and votes. Yes, you could argue that the majority don’t want a conservative government, but that is the reality of multiple parties and a populist vote. It wouldn’t have won them this election, but I do think one of the ways forward would be for Labour and the Lib Dem party to merge (The Lib Labs?). Combined they represent almost half of the electorate and clearly offer something of value between themselves. Then if take a firm stance about keeping the union together, they could offer a real alternative to the SNP in Scotland.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 13, 2019 17:28:19 GMT
That’s not the real outcome of the election at all, as Labour (the UK’s 2nd largest party) refused to state if they were a remain or leave party. A vote for Labour was a vote for a second referendum, not a vote to remain in the EU. However I agree that the system is flawed, but the truth of the matter is that the conservatives won both the largest number of seats and votes. Yes, you could argue that the majority don’t want a conservative government, but that is the reality of multiple parties and a populist vote. It wouldn’t have won them this election, but I do think one of the ways forward would be for Labour and the Lib Dem party to merge (The Lib Labs?). Combined they represent almost half of the electorate and clearly offer something of value between themselves. Then if take a firm stance about keeping the union together, they could offer a real alternative to the SNP in Scotland. That misunderstands the vast difference between socialism (or social democracy) and liberalism. The answer is not fewer parties, it is more parties. To try and yoke together disparate philosophies just further disenfranchises voters by given them a manufactured binary choice. An easy path to a labour win in 2014 is to propose a cross party pact to reform the electoral system to a proportional one.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Dec 13, 2019 17:46:32 GMT
The irony is not lost, the most centrist party were well beaten yesterday, unable to be openly remain or leave as not offend, only the centre was left and that was rightly seen as having no opinion at all.
This should be seen as a warning as the centre can be perceived as a safe place from which it is difficult to build engagement and momentum as the policies can be considered anodyne and at its worst could be seen as having no no ideas.
For me the following would be my preferred direction.
The first part is for Labour is to move to be an openly Europhile Party to continue the engagement of the young voters who will naturally become more influential over the next few years, we may have left the EU but we are all Europeans and Europe will continue to be our biggest partner and influencer.
The next phase is to build on the socialist green deal policies of the manifesto and make this the core from which all policies build on, of which nationalisation of rail, energy and water can be a central tenet along with house building and making our current homes more energy efficient. This should not be too difficult as Greenpeace ranked the Labour manifesto higher than the Greens.
The welfare state and NHS are / should be a given and the imagery of Labour should subliminally include this in some way.
These two pillars along with the subliminal Party of welfare will be a key differentiator and done well could remove the bad smell of socialism and replace it with a sweeter smell of socioenvironmentalism or some such, only hopefully more catchy tag line.
This for me would build a new identity for the Party and build the foundation and vision for all or futures.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 13, 2019 18:08:51 GMT
The irony is not lost, the most centrist party were well beaten yesterday, unable to be openly remain or leave as not offend, only the centre was left and that was rightly seen as having no opinion at all. This should be seen as a warning as the centre can be perceived as a safe place from which it is difficult to build engagement and momentum as the policies can be considered anodyne and at its worst could be seen as having no no ideas. For me the following would be my preferred direction. The first part is for Labour is to move to be an openly Europhile Party to continue the engagement of the young voters who will naturally become more influential over the next few years, we may have left the EU but we are all Europeans and Europe will continue to be our biggest partner and influencer. The next phase is to build on the socialist green deal policies of the manifesto and make this the core from which all policies build on, of which nationalisation of rail, energy and water can be a central tenet along with house building and making our current homes more energy efficient. This should not be too difficult as Greenpeace ranked the Labour manifesto higher than the Greens. The welfare state and NHS are / should be a given and the imagery of Labour should subliminally include this in some way. These two pillars along with the subliminal Party of welfare will be a key differentiator and done well could remove the bad smell of socialism and replace it with a sweeter smell of socioenvironmentalism or some such, only hopefully more catchy tag line. This for me would build a new identity for the Party and build the foundation and vision for all or futures. That’s the same again with a different cover. First thing I would suggest to any Labour metropolitan supporter is to spend time in former Labour voting areas in the North, Wales and Midlands. This isn’t a need for a rebranding exercise, the whole product is not fit for purpose. Back to my ‘labour for life but not really any more’ parents. Problem one, Labour is seen as a London based party that has no clue about life outside their bubble. Problem two, Labour are seen as telling their voters what they should believe rather than asking their voters what they want. Problem three (and this needs to be said again and again), Labour isn’t interested in changing things ‘for the likes of us’. The element with some change is the Europhile bit, but that’s the last battle. Too late now. One bright spot was Ed Balls and Alan Johnson eviscerating the odious Lansman on the ITV coverage, more of that, please!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 18:27:59 GMT
Actually I think you’ll find most northerners probably want Brexit more than they do the Labour Party. Labour refused to deliver on it and it’s cost them dearly. For northerners to elect a Tory is almost unheard of - some of the seats they won yesterday they’ve never held, and a number of them they haven’t had for decades (going back almost a century in some places). Thatcher still isn’t forgiven up there and that’s a grudge that will last a life time.
But Labour seen as a London based party? Never. I mean even Blair had a northern constituency! The Conservatives are synonymous with Westminster and Eton, worlds apart from us northern folk.
i would argue Corbin refusing to give his party a Brexit identity meant that anyone considering them hasn’t a clue what they would get. Wanting a second referendum without supporting leave or remain is just repeating the cycle and does no one any good. Usually you know where you are with Labour but not since Gordon Brown’s attempt have we really known. All Ed Miliband did was try and slag off Cameron and Corbyn promised to re-invent the wheel in an attempt to win.
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