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Post by asfound on Nov 11, 2018 11:20:21 GMT
Not an echo chamber, just some informed intelligent people talking based on facts. Contrastingly, I had a very productive chat on twitter yesterday with an acquaintance who first doubted the gender pay gap, who then listened, read some articles and said he'd gone away informed. That, is how the grown ups do it. I've read plenty of articles across the spectrum, as well as the actual reports and analyses (I work in a research institute with statistics so I have to). Do not assume people with a different opinion are automatically less informed. Intelligent people taking based on facts eh? If you do say so yourself.
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Post by bellboard27 on Nov 12, 2018 18:51:53 GMT
I’ve noticed the National Theatre is selling a book entitled “Feminist”. It consists entirely of blank pages.
Of course it’s just a notebook.
OR
Could they be sending some subtle message I can’t figure out?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 20:58:00 GMT
I have been considering starting a change.org petition for a 9pm curfew for men. If there are enough signatories the issue will have to be debated in parliament. Who knows we may even get them to pass a law. I think we should at least try it for a month. Can you imagine, a whole month with the men locked in after 9pm and us women free to roam the streets, parks and public spaces of the UK stress and hassle free. In the future we could have this extended to asking men step down from all positions of power - just for a trial month. Bagsie artistic directorship of the NT. Bring it on.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 16, 2018 12:56:13 GMT
I would break that law - as a matter of principle.
My freedom should not be curbed in that way. I pose no physical (or other) threat towards any person I meet on the street at any time of day or night. Indeed I plan my routes in order to maximise my own safety.
Legally curbing my freedom just because of my sex/gender is unjustifiable.
And in a world where people are campaigning for the right to self-identify, what would stop anyone who wanted to break such a law for nefarious reasons from just self-identifying in such a way as to avoid the restrictions?
Far better to campaign for better street lighting, broader CCTV coverage in hotspot areas, increased police activity - where such things can make a real difference when it comes to deterrence.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 13:06:17 GMT
Can you imagine, a whole month with the men locked in after 9pm and us women free to roam the streets, parks and public spaces of the UK stress and hassle free Except of course that the very men likely to ignore such a curfew are going to be the most dangerous to women, and the decent men who would step in and help won't be around. In the utopia I envisage men will never have to come to our aid because there will be enough protection in place. This is all a temporary measure you understand, giving men time to reflect upon and address the deficiencies that have brought the world to such a sorry pass. All the decent men will be deployed in the reprogramming of the weird ones.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 16, 2018 14:01:41 GMT
Except of course that the very men likely to ignore such a curfew are going to be the most dangerous to women, and the decent men who would step in and help won't be around. In the utopia I envisage men will never have to come to our aid because there will be enough protection in place. This is all a temporary measure you understand, giving men time to reflect upon and address the deficiencies that have brought the world to such a sorry pass. All the decent men will be deployed in the reprogramming of the weird ones. No. Just no. I am not going to be held responsible for those who assault or abuse. It is utterly wrong to blame one entire section of the population because there are those whose behaviour is inappropriate/illegal/dangerous. Just as it is wrong to victim blame Trying to set all men up as the problem is to misunderstand the situation.
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Post by The Matthew on Nov 16, 2018 14:50:22 GMT
It's easy to think of the world as Us and Them and convince yourself that it's Them that's the problem. And it's frighteningly easy to convince yourself that it's justifiable to strip Them of Their rights. When those things are history we call them atrocities. When we're doing them we call them necessary.
I've no respect for people who think "equality" means "it's my turn to be the bully".
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 18:41:21 GMT
I am heartened that men on here are so outraged by my provocation, but I am a little puzzled. If so many of you stand up for equality etc why is there still so much discrimination and everyday sexism? Why are women still so unsafe in the world? While the figures for violence against women in the UK are not amongst the worst in the world they are still pretty bad. In 2015/16 there was a spike in domestic violence figures. Apparently, a couple of women are killed each week through domestic violence and that does not include the figures for those who are injured or hospitalised in those circumstances. This represents the extreme form of discrimination. I listened to a radio phone in the other day which said that most crimes are committed by poc (untrue) which justified stop and search. Perhaps the same logic should be applied to VAW.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 18:53:09 GMT
I am heartened that men on here are so outraged by my provocation, but I am a little puzzled. If so many of you stand up for equality etc why is there still so much discrimination and everyday sexism? Why are women still so unsafe in the world? While the figures for violence against women in the UK are not amongst the worst in the world they are still pretty bad. In 2015/16 there was a spike in domestic violence figures. Apparently, a couple of women are killed each week through domestic violence and that does not include the figures for those who are injured or hospitalised in those circumstances. This represents the extreme form of discrimination. I listened to a radio phone in the other day which said that most crimes are committed by poc (untrue) which justified stop and search. Perhaps the same logic should be applied to VAW. I think the "outrage" comes from the fact that your proposal to deal with this issue is to simply enforce a different form of discrimination more than anything else.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 19:04:40 GMT
Honestly, it's very disheartening to see how strongly some people feel about a hypothetical proposed curfew compared with some of the other things they've expressed displeasure with in the past. Even the most Eeyore-ish of board members who rarely express positive opinions on anything have never reacted with as much raw displeasure before. If you all took this level of response to the idea of being theoretically disadvantaged and applied it to supporting people who are *actually* disadvantaged, you could all be a real force for good in the world. But I guess real problems aren't as important to some people as thought experiments are. Still, I guess it's useful to know where we all stand...
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Post by The Matthew on Nov 16, 2018 20:35:32 GMT
I'm going to start this off by saying that I'm not getting at any particular person when I write this, or even any particular discussion. It's a difficult post to write, and I've no idea who will have been the most recent poster when I submit it. (There's one woman here who thought I hated her because I posted something immediately after she did and she thought it was directed at her. I tried to explain that her post hadn't been the last one when I'd started writing, but I'm not sure she ever believed me.) This particular post has taken well over an hour. I'm not even entirely sure what point I'm trying to make yet.
As I revealed last year in a similar discussion, I've been a victim of abuse myself, for about two and half years starting shortly before my fourteenth birthday. It's been difficult. But it was years ago, and although there are some things I was forced into that I still can't talk about, even to myself — the very thought of putting them into words gives them a power I can't face — for the most part I've recovered.
But the thing I find most distressing — the thing that means I have to take sedatives in order to sleep several times a month — is that as far as many women are concerned I'm treated as an abuser, not a victim. The sexual abuse was many years ago. The emotional and verbal abuse from women who really ought to be on my side happens almost daily. It's something I can never put behind me. It's a ceaseless torment.
Every time women treat the issue of abuse or sexism or feminism or anything else as a men-against-women thing it's basically telling me that what happened to me doesn't count. A year ago I was told in no uncertain terms that I wasn't allowed to have my own opinion of how I should best handle the abuse I myself suffered because my opinion wasn't woman-approved. It sometimes felt like I was being berated for daring to step on their turf. I suspect some of the women didn't even bother to read my difficult admission, as not listening to what any man had to say was very much the order of the day.
I can't put into words how much pain it causes me whenever any woman attacks "men" as a generic concept. It's not just the comments themselves: the very knowledge that there are many women out there who think of me as The Enemy and think they are right to do so causes me an immense amount of distress. The sexual abuse I suffered was at school and my abusers were other kids; they didn't have a full understanding of what they were doing, and knowing that has helped me to accept it. But all the people here are adults, and they bloody well should understand the implications of the things they say and do.
We all know that the way women were treated in the past was a disgrace and that although things are improving there's still some way to go, but it's vitally important to make sure the right target is attacked. Indiscriminate bigotry towards men isn't standing up for women's rights. It's beating up a kid who spent two and a half years having unwanted cocks shoved in both ends of him and doesn't even get to call it rape because legally it can't be.
Some people here seem more concerned with attacking men than with making things better for women. That needs to change. Because if your behaviour results in a child abuse victim needing sedation to sleep then you're not one of the good guys, no matter how much you justify it to yourself.
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Post by Tibidabo on Nov 16, 2018 20:42:30 GMT
Matthew, I normally ignore the more serious stuff on here, so have not said what I think before. But your unbelievably, painfully brave post has made me want me to add my bit, for the record.
I am totally fed up with the hatred towards men in general on this board. So much so that I don't post on here so much any more. To those who are doing this, please stop. In particular, please stop turning so many threads into an anti-men agenda.
Just stop.
Matthew 💔
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Post by martello736 on Nov 16, 2018 21:42:21 GMT
Hello lovely people. I'm going to write a proper "this is my life experience as a trans woman" thing when I get a moment but first I want to respond to the curfew thing. When I was in my third year at university, I acted as a mentor to some of the first years who had attendance problems and who were slipping behind on their work. There was one particular boy, or should I say, young man, who was very clearly suffering from depression and it impacted his ability to complete his assignments and revise for his exams. It took me a while to get him to speak openly about his problems but it became apparent that he had very low self esteem, and found it distressing to go on social media because of nasty comments that he would find on there. A bit more digging revealed that it wasn't specific targeted abuse, he'd look down his Twitter timeline for example and see tweets like "men should just die" and "men are trash" with upwards of 20,000 likes each - many of which came from feminists and supposed social justice activists thinking they were making a bold progressive stance - and he would feel like each of those people were speaking specifically to him and had a whole army backing them up. When he walked through the university campus, he assumed that every woman automatically hated him for being male unless they proved otherwise. It eroded his self-confidence and he found himself unable to function because he felt so heavily berated because of his arbitrary characteristics that he lost sight of the point. I'm gonna be honest, I was quite possibly one of those "eughhh f*** all men" types before I met that guy, but it completely changed my mind. You can never be too kind. You can never show enough compassion. Oppression is a vile thing to experience, believe me I know, but if your first response is to fire that same vitriol you've had shown to you into the faces of people who haven't done anything to you, you're probably not the great person that you see yourself as. Women go through a lot of sh*t, but that doesn't excuse such nastiness. 3 out of 4 suicides in the UK are male, men on the whole really struggle to talk openly about their feelings, and that's just as much because of the "you don't matter" culture social justice has created as it is the fault of other men. If when a man tells you that he's struggling your first response is to a) tell him why his problems are irrelevant or b) say "yeah well that's just patriarchy so it's your own fault anyway" then you need to take a step back and consider that maybe you need to show that same kindness you wish somebody had shown you when you needed it. Be kind, always. Matthew, you're beautiful and amazing and if I could give you a hug right now I would. Anybody who tells you that you have something to feel guilty for for as a result of things beyond your control is an idiot. As a fellow sexual abuse victim, I will always have your back, and you are incredibly brave for speaking out
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Post by martello736 on Nov 16, 2018 21:53:52 GMT
More thoughts, sorry... I really think we need to stop applying collective guilt. This notion of "men, you need to stop other men from being twats" is really weird. The kinds of lovely, funny, sweet, wonderful men that really take this kind of rhetoric to heart and are affected by it are the same people that would have absolutely no power in convincing the 'gym bros' to stop whistling at women in the street. I have so many incredible men in my life and it's wrong to lump them in with the predators and the vile people just because they share the same anatomy. For every man that's threatened me in the street there's been another man who would challenge him or rush over to check I'm okay. Last year I was punched in the middle of Stevenage and a total stranger gave me £20 so I could get a taxi home and refused to give me his details so I could reimburse him because he wanted to do something nice. There are so many lovely men on this forum too, and it pains me to think of you reading unnecessarily bitter comments that attack your humanity for the crime of being a man. There are horrible, awful men out there (and I'll do a post about that once I've had time to collect my thoughts) but it's always wrong to assume. Random thing I've just remembered, Guardian journalist Caitlin Moran put out a tweet a few weeks ago asking men about what they struggle with most in life, and there were so many people who replied with things like "I don't even know how to respond to this because it's not a question I've ever been asked before". It was a real shame. Feminism should be making things better for everyone, not just those the orthodoxy deems worthy of it.
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Post by lynette on Nov 16, 2018 22:00:40 GMT
I’m sad that people on this Board are negatively affected by what others have said but I’m proud that we do discuss this here and I hope our love of theatre can be unifying and positive from now on.
If I may introduce another related idea into the thread, it is how we bring up children to be respectful of each other regardless of how we express our gender or sexuality. We can help to do this simply by example, in the home and in public. Children do not naturally discriminate. But we also have to protect them and teach them how to protect themselves. So we introduce anxieties which they interpret within the culture they live in. It is very tricky but crucial to get this right and we don’t always succeed. Raising a boy to be a man is one of the greatest privileges I have had in my life. It is like holding your breath while running very fast.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 16, 2018 22:32:33 GMT
Every time women treat the issue of abuse or sexism or feminism or anything else as a men-against-women thing it's basically telling me that what happened to me doesn't count. A year ago I was told in no uncertain terms that I wasn't allowed to have my own opinion of how I should best handle the abuse I myself suffered because my opinion wasn't woman-approved. It sometimes felt like I was being berated for daring to step on their turf. I suspect some of the women didn't even bother to read my difficult admission, as not listening to what any man had to say was very much the order of the day. And that passed without comment from anyone on this forum. An absolute disgrace.
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Post by peggs on Nov 16, 2018 22:36:38 GMT
The Matthew what a very brave thing to write. How sad that our shared love of theatre that brings us here runs side by side by some readers/posters being so badly impacted. Sometimes coming on here makes my life seem rather narrow. I too am glad that we can talk about the serious and there aren't really any no go topics but sorry if the result can be so painful. And yes how we model to children and bring them up is crucial and such a responsibility but also a gift. Thank you to all of those who have opened themselves up by sharing here and in other threads.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 22:36:44 GMT
A male colleague of mine was going to compete with me for a promotion but then told me that he was going to stand aside because he thought I was the best person for the role. I was shocked and incredibly moved. It was also great to see men on the last women’s march - especially those who attended with their young daughters. Despite these experiences I honestly don’t believe that men in power are doing enough to support women and to create a more equal world.
So interesting that people are holding on to the curfew nonsense unwilling to let it go and discuss the more serious issues. The WHO has said that VAW is a global epidemic, although I acknowledge that in the UK it isn’t nearly as bad as in some other countries. The passion with which people have talked about the curfew as though it was a real possibility has been quite shocking to me. I had no idea it would cause so much anxiety. I am also interested to observe that it that it has resulted in women having to reassure men about how wonderful they are (as I have done at the top of this post)
As a survivor of child abuse myself (this is a euphemism really isn’t it for what is actually rape) by a couple of grown men I sympathise with anyone male or female who has experienced this - I understand the lifelong struggle to manage the devastating impact.
It is going to be difficult to stay away because I really love this Board, but I am going to take a break from the forum. I fear I am spoiling the fun and I can make better use of my time and interests elsewhere.
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Post by martello736 on Nov 16, 2018 23:00:35 GMT
So interesting that people are holding on to the curfew nonsense unwilling to let it go and discuss the more serious issues. The passion with which people have talked about the curfew as though it was a real possibility has been quite shocking to me. I had no idea it would cause so much anxiety. I am also interested to observe that it that it has resulted in women having to reassure men about how wonderful they are (as I have done at the top of this post) See, being transgender I'm very used to people hypothetically suggesting ways entire groups' rights should be restricted and then wondering why there's a backlash to it. "Why do the men in dresses get so triggered when you suggest they are a danger to children?" they opine whilst planning how they can make it as difficult as possible for us to access healthcare. So when I see someone discussing legislative discrimination as though it's just one of those fun games you play it makes me angry, and the idea that people defending and standing up for the group you targeted is inherently noteworthy because said group is men and not a woke caucus approved marginalised group is also stupid. We're "holding on to the curfew nonsense" because you're the only person that's come into this thread expecting your suggestion of making people's lives intentionally more difficult to be taken seriously. I'm sorry to hear you were sexually assaulted. The more people you talk to the more endemic a problem it seems to be that has been swept under the rug for far too long.
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Post by Roxie on Nov 16, 2018 23:12:13 GMT
The Mattnew (i don’t know how to tag, sorry) I was moved by your story, you’re so incredibly brave.
I’ve said this time and time again, feminism is NOT manhating. It’s not anti men, it’s about equality of the sexes. Sexist comments from women about men are as bad as sexist remarks from men towards women, and abuse in any form to anyone is unacceptable.
I of course acknowledge that both sexes experience violence and abuse. Men can be suffers of domestic violence/rape/assault and we need to change the conversation about this. With the high suicide rate amongst men, it’s important to encourage men to talk about their feelings and not bottle things up even though it’s not always seen as the done thing.
All that being said, most men are bigger and stronger than most women, so women are physically in more danger from men than the other way around in most circumstances. That is why it’s ingrained in many women to be wary of men, and that’s why that imaginary curfew was mentioned on twitter, to open up the conversation and bring it to light. We women recognise it’s only a small minority of men who are a threat, it’s just you don’t know who.
As one poster said, I also saw Caitlin Moran’s post about men’s struggles and it was heartbreaking. I think it’s about trying to understand each other’s struggles, support each other and try to be good humans. Though I recognise it’s a much more complex issue than that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 23:21:02 GMT
So interesting that people are holding on to the curfew nonsense unwilling to let it go and discuss the more serious issues. The passion with which people have talked about the curfew as though it was a real possibility has been quite shocking to me. I had no idea it would cause so much anxiety. I am also interested to observe that it that it has resulted in women having to reassure men about how wonderful they are (as I have done at the top of this post) See, being transgender I'm very used to people hypothetically suggesting ways entire groups' rights should be restricted and then wondering why there's a backlash to it. "Why do the men in dresses get so triggered when you suggest they are a danger to children?" they opine whilst planning how they can make it as difficult as possible for us to access healthcare. So when I see someone discussing legislative discrimination as though it's just one of those fun games you play it makes me angry, and the idea that people defending and standing up for the group you targeted is inherently noteworthy because said group is men and not a woke caucus approved marginalised group is also stupid. We're "holding on to the curfew nonsense" because you're the only person that's come into this thread expecting your suggestion of making people's lives intentionally more difficult to be taken seriously. I'm sorry to hear you were sexually assaulted. The more people you talk to the more endemic a problem it seems to be that has been swept under the rug for far too You’re not listening. Hellbent on attack and pushing an unrelated agenda. You defend one survivor and think nothing of attacking another. But I don’t give a ^^^*. Look, I am home now and about to deactivate my account. So you all better be quick if you want to get in some last minute vitriol.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 23:23:26 GMT
So interesting that people are holding on to the curfew nonsense unwilling to let it go and discuss the more serious issues. The passion with which people have talked about the curfew as though it was a real possibility has been quite shocking to me. I had no idea it would cause so much anxiety. I am also interested to observe that it that it has resulted in women having to reassure men about how wonderful they are (as I have done at the top of this post) See, being transgender I'm very used to people hypothetically suggesting ways entire groups' rights should be restricted and then wondering why there's a backlash to it. "Why do the men in dresses get so triggered when you suggest they are a danger to children?" they opine whilst planning how they can make it as difficult as possible for us to access healthcare. So when I see someone discussing legislative discrimination as though it's just one of those fun games you play it makes me angry, and the idea that people defending and standing up for the group you targeted is inherently noteworthy because said group is men and not a woke caucus approved marginalised group is also stupid. We're "holding on to the curfew nonsense" because you're the only person that's come into this thread expecting your suggestion of making people's lives intentionally more difficult to be taken seriously. I'm sorry to hear you were sexually assaulted. The more people you talk to the more endemic a problem it seems to be that has been swept under the rug for far too long. I have talked about it enough and as I said it was not assault. I don’t want or need your sympathy.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 7:40:16 GMT
Hi All. I reactivated my account for one last post because I found something that I hope is useful to some of you and because I was concerned by the idea conveyed on here that it was difficult for men to make a difference. The white Ribbon movement is comprised of men who work to bring about change in the area of violence against women (it is overwhelmingly women who are victims and men who are the perpetrators). They work to educate men and boys about discrimination and abuse. Their website contains useful statistics and information. Those men who consider themselves allies would do well to put their money where their mouth is and take the white ribbon pledge. That’s all folks.
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Post by The Matthew on Nov 17, 2018 7:43:47 GMT
(Most of excellent post deleted for space) As one poster said, I also saw Caitlin Moran’s post about men’s struggles and it was heartbreaking. I think it’s about trying to understand each other’s struggles, support each other and try to be good humans. Though I recognise it’s a much more complex issue than that. I've said many times that it's important to listen to everyone. One of the comments that most upset me last year was when I suggested that women needed to listen to men too and someone replied that it was strictly a one way street and only women should be heard. But that street leads nowhere but narrowmindedness. Ouch, that's a clunky metaphor. It's a very different subject, and I've told this story before, but when I was in the sixth form at school we had a discussion about abortion. We all turned up with our teenage-simplistic arguments at the ready, and then someone devastated all of them by describing how she felt on discovering that her parents had been going to abort her. I forget whether we ended up mostly for or against abortion, but the main lesson I took away was that you need to listen to everyone because someone may have knowledge or experience that wipes out all your assumptions and forces you to consider issues you'd never known existed.
What I'm hoping for is that everyone will consider the consequences of their behaviour on others, whether it's casually dismissing a carefully thought out post as mansplaining or telling women that the gender wage gap is mostly over. Sometimes there's too much point-scoring and not enough paying attention.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 8:15:35 GMT
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