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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 16:56:29 GMT
@cleoskryker I can only speak for myself, but I fully acknowledge as a White Woman I wasn't aware of the differences/need for different approaches, means of support etc for WOC within Feminism when I was younger. Thankfully I've been able to educate myself/be educated by WOC and hopefully my own Feminism is now more intersectional, and I as a person am more aware so that I can be supportive, step in/use my voice etc where possible.
Obviously inter-sectionalism goes across many different areas- I am for example naturally more in tune with Queer women's experience, and Working Class women's experience. And while I don't expect everyone to automatically be as knowledgeable as someone like me who grew up/exists as part of those groups, much like the wider issue of Feminism I do expect other women to listen to those experiences. As we as White women should to WOC.
Nobody's experience as a woman is the same as the next, but the point being we shouldn't be dismissing other women's experiences. We should learn from and support them, and where needed adjust our view of the world to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 17:03:31 GMT
There are small ways of challenging everyday sexism. For example, when a woman is talked over in a meeting we can say something like “x just said something that I didn’t quite hear. Can you repeat it?” Or if someone says something that is dismissed and subsequently accepted when a man says it we can say “ oh yes, that’s what x said and I thought was a good idea”. So often this doesn’t happen. More often than not people watch what is happening and let it go. Because of this it can be hard for the person on the receiving end to speak up “that was my idea” can seem petty or like sour grapes. I wouldn’t challenge aggressive behaviour for fear of escalation, but I have literally stood beside women who are on the receiving end of threats etc. I make a point of never turning a blind eye to situations where women (or anyone for that matter) are under threat.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 17:25:11 GMT
I'm a big fan of the mid-meeting "that is literally what I just said" and I hope I'm as good at standing up for other women as I think I am, but I know I'm less good at standing up for myself in some situations (when a mostly friendly acquaintance says something incredibly out of the blue and by the time you've processed it they've moved on, or if I'm on a mostly empty train late at night and there's an intimidating group nearby, and I don't think I'd find it as easy to stand up to a big boss at work as it is when it's someone nearer my level). We just all have to keep practising and backing each other up and it will get easier. Especially if men get involved, a "hey mate, that's not cool" from you will unfortunately carry more weight when it comes to a certain type of harasser than a "f*ck off and leave me alone" from an angry/nervous woman will.
(I'm sure I was trying to reply to your post there, @cleoskryker, but I seem to have gone on a bit of a tangent...)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 17:33:27 GMT
There was a good story (I'll link back if i can find it) about how just engaging a woman in conversation if say she's being harassed on public transport is a good tactic. So just asking 'hi how are you' making banal conversation etc etc as it's non confrontational and distracts somewhat. Of course again a guy wading in with 'hey are you ok? can I help?' has a good effect as well (as in to say men don't have to confront the attacker either if they aren't comfortable but can still help).
The other side of this we haven't touched on yet, as much, is women building up women. So whether that's if you're successful in your field at work, helping and supporting more 'junior' women, or simply cheerleading your friends and encouraging them to pursue their passions (career or otherwise) it's the women supporting women side that is just as powerful as that, you know little job of fighting the patriarchy.
I recently had two very different experiences of this (those of you who know me will know EXACTLY who and what I'm talking about). Where within days I had a woman, very succesful in her field 'reaching back' and helping in even a very small way to pull me up too, to support me and above all just be a cheerleader for what I'm doing in my career. And it's not about receiving 'praise' or even validation, though nothing wrong with that. It's certainly no 'leg up' what is valuable there is a woman who has been successful telling someone trying to be, 'well done, you got this keep at it'
On the other side, I got torn to SHREDS by a fellow woman, I'd say at an equal life/career stage, who proceeded to tell me I had no 'right' to a career 'win' I'd gained, and to proceed to tell me all the ways I was inferior and not entitled to something, ultimately that she wanted but hadn't got. That was a friend of 8 years. Now we're all human and jealousy rears its head, but feminism is also about supporting your fellow women, cheering them on (even through gritted teeth sometimes).
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Post by The Matthew on Nov 8, 2018 18:01:28 GMT
Especially if men get involved, a "hey mate, that's not cool" from you will unfortunately carry more weight when it comes to a certain type of harasser than a "f*ck off and leave me alone" from an angry/nervous woman will. It seems to me that an awful lot of social change comes through peer disapproval than through legal enforcement. It's easy to convince yourself that you can get away with a bit of law-breaking, but there's no escape from your friends thinking you're an utter tool and stating their contempt to your face.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Nov 8, 2018 18:14:01 GMT
At work I have always preferred the wisdom of women over the cockiness of the opinionated male, in one Team I managed, an intelligent woman lacking in confidence when supported to contribute spoke more sense than anyone else in the room.
Some behaviour by men towards women I have seen since I have moved to London has been quite shocking, having mostly lived in rural areas where you more likely to be ‘known’ I wonder if the anonymity of the metropolis drives behaviour that would not be tolerated elsewhere.
As society moves from the traditional male bias and the predominantly better educated women begin to move to influential positions we can hopefully move on from the sh*tstorm we men have made of the World and the men who harass which I believe comes from inferiority in the same way that the most homophobic men are likely protesting too much, are shown up to be the small minded idiots they are.
One thing I do find confusing though, on the few occasions I have perused a ‘Woman’s Magazine, I am always surprised that nearly every article and advert is about attractiveness over just about everything else and continues to perpetuate the myth attractiveness is all. I cannot see why women consume what I perceive as patronising drivel.
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Post by daisy24601 on Nov 8, 2018 19:10:07 GMT
Some behaviour by men towards women I have seen since I have moved to London has been quite shocking, having mostly lived in rural areas where you more likely to be ‘known’ I wonder if the anonymity of the metropolis drives behaviour that would not be tolerated elsewhere. Unfortunately I can report that this is not the case. It happens everywhere.
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Post by hannechalk on Nov 8, 2018 22:34:14 GMT
Recently I walked in Hanley in Stoke-on-Trent, and this man approached me saying he needed to get to the hospital as his wife was giving birth, and he didn't know how to get there. Thinking he was asking for directions, I apologised for not being local, and stopped a passing gentleman to see if he knew.
The guy had me with my back to a wall, waved on the man, and said 'I don't need directions, I need you to give me £5 to get there.'. I got so angry. How bloody dare he. He was trying to intimidate me into giving him money. I gave him what for and pushed past.
Kudos to the gentleman, he did stop to make sure I was able to get away.
It made me so angry though, plenty of people were walking there but he targeted a woman on her own, and backed me into a wall. Unfortunately for him I live in a city where I am often approached with bullsh*t like that.
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Post by Roxie on Nov 8, 2018 23:30:09 GMT
Recently I walked in Hanley in Stoke-on-Trent, and this man approached me saying he needed to get to the hospital as his wife was giving birth, and he didn't know how to get there. Thinking he was asking for directions, I apologised for not being local, and stopped a passing gentleman to see if he knew. The guy had me with my back to a wall, waved on the man, and said 'I don't need directions, I need you to give me £5 to get there.'. I got so angry. How bloody dare he. He was trying to intimidate me into giving him money. I gave him what for and pushed past. Kudos to the gentleman, he did stop to make sure I was able to get away. It made me so angry though, plenty of people were walking there but he targeted a woman on her own, and backed me into a wall. Unfortunately for him I live in a city where I am often approached with bullsh*t like that. Whaaaat!? Where in Hanley was this? I told you to be careful, it’s getting more and more dodgy in town, there’s loads of druggies. I don’t like it on my own after dark anymore. I love my home city, i really do, but if they’re trying to improve the city, they need to get a handle on this drugs problem. It’s like monkey dust capital. I’m sorry that happened to you Hanne. Glad you’re ok.
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Post by Backdrifter on Nov 8, 2018 23:50:43 GMT
Be more Joan Cusack. We should ALL be more Joan. SPOILER ALERT But she ended up reduced to a pile of ash in that film!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 1:37:09 GMT
Recently I walked in Hanley in Stoke-on-Trent, and this man approached me saying he needed to get to the hospital as his wife was giving birth, and he didn't know how to get there. Thinking he was asking for directions, I apologised for not being local, and stopped a passing gentleman to see if he knew. The guy had me with my back to a wall, waved on the man, and said 'I don't need directions, I need you to give me £5 to get there.'. I got so angry. How bloody dare he. He was trying to intimidate me into giving him money. I gave him what for and pushed past. Kudos to the gentleman, he did stop to make sure I was able to get away. It made me so angry though, plenty of people were walking there but he targeted a woman on her own, and backed me into a wall. Unfortunately for him I live in a city where I am often approached with bullsh*t like that. Whaaaat!? Where in Hanley was this? I told you to be careful, it’s getting more and more dodgy in town, there’s loads of druggies. I don’t like it on my own after dark anymore. I love my home city, i really do, but if they’re trying to improve the city, they need to get a handle on this drugs problem. It’s like monkey dust capital. I’m sorry that happened to you Hanne. Glad you’re ok. That sadly is one of the many excuses that some beggars use. I've seen numerous ones get in people's faces and for anyone let alone a woman it can be intimidating. There are some homeless people that I see around who I will give money or a snack to but aggressive beggars or those with bull**** stories I just ignore.
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Post by Backdrifter on Nov 9, 2018 9:59:18 GMT
Whaaaat!? Where in Hanley was this? I told you to be careful, it’s getting more and more dodgy in town, there’s loads of druggies. I don’t like it on my own after dark anymore. I love my home city, i really do, but if they’re trying to improve the city, they need to get a handle on this drugs problem. It’s like monkey dust capital. I’m sorry that happened to you Hanne. Glad you’re ok. That sadly is one of the many excuses that some beggars use. I've seen numerous ones get in people's faces and for anyone let alone a woman it can be intimidating. There are some homeless people that I see around who I will give money or a snack to but aggressive beggars or those with bull**** stories I just ignore. A few years ago I saw a couple pull this routine twice in different parts of SW London, weeks apart. I thought, wow they still haven't reached the hospital yet then...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 13:21:03 GMT
That sadly is one of the many excuses that some beggars use. I've seen numerous ones get in people's faces and for anyone let alone a woman it can be intimidating. There are some homeless people that I see around who I will give money or a snack to but aggressive beggars or those with bull**** stories I just ignore. A few years ago I saw a couple pull this routine twice in different parts of SW London, weeks apart. I thought, wow they still haven't reached the hospital yet then... The empty petrol can, money for bus or train fare home is another one. The one which really annoyed me was a guy saying he was AWOL from the Army - I just hope he asked a serving or former service person one time for money.
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Post by hannechalk on Nov 9, 2018 13:55:15 GMT
Whaaaat!? Where in Hanley was this? I told you to be careful, it’s getting more and more dodgy in town, there’s loads of druggies. I don’t like it on my own after dark anymore. I love my home city, i really do, but if they’re trying to improve the city, they need to get a handle on this drugs problem. It’s like monkey dust capital. I’m sorry that happened to you Hanne. Glad you’re ok. That sadly is one of the many excuses that some beggars use. I've seen numerous ones get in people's faces and for anyone let alone a woman it can be intimidating. There are some homeless people that I see around who I will give money or a snack to but aggressive beggars or those with bull**** stories I just ignore. It was on the Sunday-morning, as I was walking to the bus station. I'm well used to them, living in Bristol, once had the same guy approach me three times in the same spot in the same week with the 'ran out of petrol'-story. I'm not easily intimidated (at 5'9 and 17 stone), they will soon know they picked the wrong girl.
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Post by lynette on Nov 9, 2018 13:58:48 GMT
The above are all different kinds of begging, putting a gloss on it and are tricks of course. The next move is towards blatant trickery. There is a lot of it abroad for example, the lady with the gold ring on the pavement she has just found...she sells it to you cos you found it with her. It is brass of course. It plays on our greed or on our view of luck. Then all the rst follow, the pigeon poo trick which distracts from pickpocking ....down the line to mugging.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 15:07:33 GMT
I've had people asking to change money and then trying to walk off without giving you your change.
I've even had a pair of beggars and one asks me something and when I ignore the first one the other says my friend was talking to you. I talk who I choose to was my response.
The actual worse one I had was when I had come out of a theatre and someone came up and asked me for taxi money and said he was the son of an elderly couple stood over the road who had just come out of said show. I said lets go and ask them and he soon disappeared muttering under his breath.
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Post by ellie1981 on Nov 9, 2018 15:52:58 GMT
The worst one I had was a young woman who genuinely looked in distress, saying she had just been attacked and needed some money to get home. The first time I gave her money as she was a very good little actress. Then the same girl cornered me at the station a week later, and then again a few minutes down the road a few days after that. I did tell her to find another area to scam in as she clearly didn’t recognise her marks.
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Post by The Matthew on Nov 9, 2018 16:54:30 GMT
The first time I gave her money as she was a very good little actress. I gave someone £2 because she was an absolutely terrible actress. When it got to the point where she decided to have three broken ribs I was close to losing it so I gave her the money and left.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 17:46:18 GMT
I once had someone give me a really crap excuse, I told them it was so bad that it was actually funny and gave them 50p for that reason alone. I cannot exactly remember what they came up with but it was so implausible it was funny.
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Post by Roxie on Nov 10, 2018 0:27:57 GMT
I never give to beggars. Particularly if they are aggressive. I think you can tell who are genuine homeless and who aren’t. When I went to see Blood Brothers, it was really cold and after the show, I walked past a homeless man near stage door but I was eager to see La Hateley so ignored him, but later on after we’d had a drink, he was still there so me and my mate gave him a few quid and urged him to get a warm drink. Difference was, he hadn’t asked for anything and he was deffo homeless or he wouldn’t have been there in the cold at 11.30pm
Also you do tend to see the same people time and time again - there used to be a woman who always wanted the bus fare to Crewe. Every day, for years she was in Hanley, trying to get to Crewe! 😂
But Hanne that’s a sh*tty thing to happen in broad daylight aswell. Glad ur ok and u pushed past him.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 10:56:01 GMT
A day late but yesterday was 'Equal Pay day' the day after which comparatively women stop being paid for the rest of the year in comparison with men.
Now before anyone comes in with the usual arguments: it's an average, it means across the board for comparable jobs, and it takes into account the number of women in senior positions comparative to men.
So while say, in the University sector where pay scales are regulated, then yes people doing identical jobs are paid roughly the same (everyone's varies slightly due to length of service etc but within 'bands' of pay). BUT at the top level there are comparatively less women than men in senior positions so women are of course being paid less overall.
In the private sector (so I understand, having never worked there myself) it's much more of a 'free for all' in terms of pay, especially in certain industries like banking. Whereby women sat next to a man doing the same job are often paid less.
Anyway at both ends, in 2018 it's a shocking state of affairs.
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Post by asfound on Nov 10, 2018 12:31:09 GMT
A day late but yesterday was 'Equal Pay day' the day after which comparatively women stop being paid for the rest of the year in comparison with men. Now before anyone comes in with the usual arguments: it's an average, it means across the board for comparable jobs, and it takes into account the number of women in senior positions comparative to men. So while say, in the University sector where pay scales are regulated, then yes people doing identical jobs are paid roughly the same (everyone's varies slightly due to length of service etc but within 'bands' of pay). BUT at the top level there are comparatively less women than men in senior positions so women are of course being paid less overall. In the private sector (so I understand, having never worked there myself) it's much more of a 'free for all' in terms of pay, especially in certain industries like banking. Whereby women sat next to a man doing the same job are often paid less. Anyway at both ends, in 2018 it's a shocking state of affairs. I think the only thing shocking about this is that supposedly intelligent people are buying into spurious, misleading statistics to push this fake news agenda. I mean this "pay gap" has been debunked and dismissed by statisticians, economists, even feminist scholars. It takes into account barely a fraction of the complex factors which could potentially account for the earnings gap. Now I know perfectly well why the myth persists. Beyond the inconsequential, the naive, the gullible types who run along with any cause to feel like part of something, this is a way for middle class women in management and senior positions to leverage pay rises. This is obvious due to which roles, which positions, and which class of society gets all the focus. And to be fair good luck to them, after all people have used far more spurious and disingenuous tactics to get more money out of companies. But don't expect anyone with a modicum of statistical literacy to swallow this particular flavour of kool aid, because I'd no more go along with this narrative then I would climate change denial or intelligent design.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 13:37:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 14:11:54 GMT
There needs to be an updated Godwin's Law - the first person in a debate to say "fake news" automatically and immediately loses.
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Post by princeton on Nov 10, 2018 14:13:04 GMT
Here's some more clearly misleading statistics which were published this week by House of Commons Library (it references the ONS report as part of its evidence base). It focusses on the gender pay gap and not the more complex issue of equal pay - which, largely due to a lack of transparency amongst employers, is more difficult to quantify. researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN07068
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Nov 10, 2018 16:26:33 GMT
A day late but yesterday was 'Equal Pay day' the day after which comparatively women stop being paid for the rest of the year in comparison with men. Now before anyone comes in with the usual arguments: it's an average, it means across the board for comparable jobs, and it takes into account the number of women in senior positions comparative to men. So while say, in the University sector where pay scales are regulated, then yes people doing identical jobs are paid roughly the same (everyone's varies slightly due to length of service etc but within 'bands' of pay). BUT at the top level there are comparatively less women than men in senior positions so women are of course being paid less overall. In the private sector (so I understand, having never worked there myself) it's much more of a 'free for all' in terms of pay, especially in certain industries like banking. Whereby women sat next to a man doing the same job are often paid less. Anyway at both ends, in 2018 it's a shocking state of affairs. I think the only thing shocking about this is that supposedly intelligent people are buying into spurious, misleading statistics to push this fake news agenda. I mean this "pay gap" has been debunked and dismissed by statisticians, economists, even feminist scholars. It takes into account barely a fraction of the complex factors which could potentially account for the earnings gap. Now I know perfectly well why the myth persists. Beyond the inconsequential, the naive, the gullible types who run along with any cause to feel like part of something, this is a way for middle class women in management and senior positions to leverage pay rises. This is obvious due to which roles, which positions, and which class of society gets all the focus. And to be fair good luck to them, after all people have used far more spurious and disingenuous tactics to get more money out of companies. But don't expect anyone with a modicum of statistical literacy to swallow this particular flavour of kool aid, because I'd no more go along with this narrative then I would climate change denial or intelligent design. Oh do be quiet, dear. The grownups are talking.
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Post by The Matthew on Nov 10, 2018 16:57:32 GMT
There needs to be an updated Godwin's Law - the first person in a debate to say "fake news" automatically and immediately loses. That would thoroughly screw up any discussion about Donald Trump.
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Post by asfound on Nov 11, 2018 10:59:34 GMT
I think the only thing shocking about this is that supposedly intelligent people are buying into spurious, misleading statistics to push this fake news agenda. I mean this "pay gap" has been debunked and dismissed by statisticians, economists, even feminist scholars. It takes into account barely a fraction of the complex factors which could potentially account for the earnings gap. Now I know perfectly well why the myth persists. Beyond the inconsequential, the naive, the gullible types who run along with any cause to feel like part of something, this is a way for middle class women in management and senior positions to leverage pay rises. This is obvious due to which roles, which positions, and which class of society gets all the focus. And to be fair good luck to them, after all people have used far more spurious and disingenuous tactics to get more money out of companies. But don't expect anyone with a modicum of statistical literacy to swallow this particular flavour of kool aid, because I'd no more go along with this narrative then I would climate change denial or intelligent design. Oh do be quiet, dear. The grownups are talking. Purge the echo chamber!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 11:10:45 GMT
Oh do be quiet, dear. The grownups are talking. Purge the echo chamber! Not an echo chamber, just some informed intelligent people talking based on facts. Contrastingly, I had a very productive chat on twitter yesterday with an acquaintance who first doubted the gender pay gap, who then listened, read some articles and said he'd gone away informed. That, is how the grown ups do it.
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Post by asfound on Nov 11, 2018 11:17:35 GMT
They are using the misnomer pay gap because that is the jargon perpetuated by activists and the media but the content and analysis of that report actually supports my point e.g. See Fig 3 and 4 and compare management/senior role gap to the 2016 report also in regards to your last comment. Which is why I find this official day when women are supposedly "working for free for the rest of the year" so ridiculous. It is not just dubious stats, but flat out incorrect. The problem with fixing the earnings gap is that it will take some very heavy social engineering. In Denmark, where parental leave can be split, mothers still take the overwhelming majority (90:10) so the gap persists. Removing that choice and forcing a 50/50 split would actually be the most effective way of closing the gap - the question is, is that desirable?
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