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Post by crowblack on Oct 15, 2018 14:44:41 GMT
racially sensitive issues/themes that arise in this play? Yes, and they're generally handled in a comic, flippant way in a work by a white able-bodied male London writer, which is what I think some (including me) will have issues with. And I'm sorry if that makes me sound po-faced and joyless because I'm not - I love dark comedy but I think this sort of thing has to be brilliant and come from some sort of place of understanding and experience for the writer to 'earn' it
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Post by crowblack on Oct 15, 2018 14:51:33 GMT
Oh sod - I don't know what happened with everything in the spoiler brackets - I had described the plot. I'd say go along, see what you think - I presume he's written it to be provocative and it'll be interesting to see what people make of it.
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Post by Lemansky on Oct 15, 2018 15:17:43 GMT
Yes I'm intrigued to see what people make of it. It definitely has the potential to make people very offended. I didn't love it, although I did want to as I normally love McDonagh's work. It actually was better to read the script (although admittidley that was a fair while ago now.) It seemed to make more sense when I read it. There was a good response from the audience at the end when I saw it, although quite a lot of uncomfortable silences or awkward laughter throughout the actual play. Stephen The gunfire did seem to go on for a fairly long time,to me, perhaps due to the type of gun that was used.
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Post by drmaplewood on Oct 15, 2018 15:21:42 GMT
racially sensitive issues/themes that arise in this play? Yes, and they're generally handled in a comic, flippant way in a work by a white able-bodied male London writer, which is what I think some (including me) will have issues with. And I'm sorry if that makes me sound po-faced and joyless because I'm not - I love dark comedy but I think this sort of thing has to be brilliant and come from some sort of place of understanding and experience for the writer to 'earn' it Oh dear, this is putting me off massively. After the way he handled race (badly) in the dreadful Three Billboards I am wondering if I should bother.
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Post by crowblack on Oct 15, 2018 15:43:23 GMT
the dreadful Three Billboards I enjoyed a lot of Three Billboards but the issues I had with that (e.g. a domestic violence scene that is suddenly played for laughs) came across worse here because at least with Three Billboards the characters were grounded with a greater three-dimensionality. Here they're cartoonish, in a 1970s/80s sitcom way.
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Post by theatrelover123 on Oct 15, 2018 15:59:54 GMT
Does anybody know what the view is like from the front row for this production? Or how high the stage is? I have front row centre tickets booked for a few weeks time and haven't heard anything from the Bridge BO so I am hoping there are no issues like there were with Allelujah (other than feeling close )
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Post by crowblack on Oct 15, 2018 17:12:48 GMT
no issues like there were with Allelujah I was on row E, flip up seat which was fine, but the stage does look similar to Allelujah, though I was row E for that too so I don't know what the issues were. Most of the action takes place near the front of the stage though, so you should be Ok. When I went to the front afterwards to try to take a pic of the set (not allowed) the legroom was good and I don't think it was as high as the Pinter but tbh I wasn't really thinking about it - hopefully someone tonight can check it out for you.
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Post by wiggymess on Oct 15, 2018 18:40:14 GMT
racially sensitive issues/themes that arise in this play? Yes, and they're generally handled in a comic, flippant way in a work by a white able-bodied male London writer, which is what I think some (including me) will have issues with. And I'm sorry if that makes me sound po-faced and joyless because I'm not - I love dark comedy but I think this sort of thing has to be brilliant and come from some sort of place of understanding and experience for the writer to 'earn' it "London writer" is a bit off the mark... I'll not bother with this. I also had reservations over some parts of 3 Billboards (although after a few viewings I think some of the criticism is off the mark)
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Post by crowblack on Oct 15, 2018 19:27:35 GMT
"London writer" is a bit off the mark... Born and brought up in London, lives in London = London writer.
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Post by Rory on Oct 15, 2018 19:58:11 GMT
Blimey, someone on Twitter has referred to this as disgusting, vile filth!
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Post by Rory on Oct 15, 2018 20:00:09 GMT
☝️To clarify, they were referring to the Martin McDonagh, not our @ryan's posts on 'ere!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2018 20:31:19 GMT
Blimey, someone on Twitter has referred to this as disgusting, vile filth! Oooh smashing. That's me booked then! ☝️To clarify, they were referring to the Martin McDonagh, not our @ryan 's posts on 'ere! My filth is never vile.
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Post by wiggymess on Oct 15, 2018 20:52:59 GMT
"London writer" is a bit off the mark... Born and brought up in London, lives in London = London writer. Thought it implied his plays were London centric rather than just the arbitrary fact that he lives in London so therefore shouldn't write about certain things.
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Post by crowblack on Oct 15, 2018 20:54:15 GMT
Blimey, someone on Twitter has referred to this as disgusting, vile filth! She's also posted on Time Out, saying the Royal Court rejected it - I'm not surprised, if true. To be fair on the audience, many seemed to be sitting there gobsmacked like after the Springtime for Hitler number rather than laughing, and on the first night when I saw it, the lights went up quickly after just one round of applause.
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Post by crowblack on Oct 15, 2018 21:10:18 GMT
arbitrary fact that he lives in London so therefore shouldn't write about certain things. He is a middle aged white male Londoner working in the arts and Hollywood. I don't think people "shouldn't write about certain things" but it's HOW they write about them that's the issue here. If you see the play I think you'll see what I mean - arguing about it when you haven't is a bit pointless. For the record, I bought tickets for this play the day they came out. I have enjoyed McDonagh's previous work and was really looking forward to this. It sounded potentially great. It even has Tom Waits in it (not live, obvs). But - argh.
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Post by wiggymess on Oct 15, 2018 23:14:47 GMT
arbitrary fact that he lives in London so therefore shouldn't write about certain things. He is a middle aged white male Londoner working in the arts and Hollywood. I don't think people "shouldn't write about certain things" but it's HOW they write about them that's the issue here. If you see the play I think you'll see what I mean - arguing about it when you haven't is a bit pointless. For the record, I bought tickets for this play the day they came out. I have enjoyed McDonagh's previous work and was really looking forward to this. It sounded potentially great. It even has Tom Waits in it (not live, obvs). But - argh. I'm still none the wiser what him being from London has to do with any of that, but ok.
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Post by crowblack on Oct 16, 2018 8:34:43 GMT
I'm still none the wiser what him being from London has to do with any of that, but ok. There's a expression used by Mark Kermode about storylines dealing with particular issues - have they earned it? Have they earned the pass to tackle something in the way that they do at this point in a drama. Generally, now, it's considered, at best, a form of tourism if someone from a socially privileged group decides to tell a story focusing on those who aren't, particularly at a time when people - including writers - from those marginalised groups are demanding the right to speak for themselves. In this case, the treatment is particularly crass - it's like something from a 70s or 80s comedian. I don't think McDonagh is racist, but he is very insensitive and shallow here, and judging by Twitter reactions - scathing last night - this may be a bit of a Morrissey moment for his fans, in which I include myself. This play foregrounds all of the issues I have had with his previous work without the quality of writing or wit to redeem it.
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Post by wiggymess on Oct 16, 2018 8:49:01 GMT
I'm still none the wiser what him being from London has to do with any of that, but ok. There's a expression used by Mark Kermode about storylines dealing with particular issues - have they earned it? Have they earned the pass to tackle something in the way that they do at this point in a drama. Generally, now, it's considered, at best, a form of tourism if someone from a socially privileged group decides to tell a story focusing on those who aren't, particularly at a time when people - including writers - from those marginalised groups are demanding the right to speak for themselves. In this case, the treatment is particularly crass - it's like something from a 70s or 80s comedian. I don't think McDonagh is racist, but he is very insensitive and shallow here, and judging by Twitter reactions - scathing last night - this may be a bit of a Morrissey moment for his fans, in which I include myself. This play foregrounds all of the issues I have had with his previous work without the quality of writing or wit to redeem it. Well put and I don't disagree, because I haven't seen the play and I'm not trying to stick up for Martin M here (although as I've said I think some criticism of 3 Billboards was knee-jerk and misplaced). But I still, after all that, don't understand what him being from London has to do with it, I think it's an important debate to be had, but I don't think it helps to chuck in arbitrary things like that.
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Post by crowblack on Oct 16, 2018 9:47:28 GMT
him being from London has to do with it I don't know where you are from, but the worldview and opportunities of someone from London are very different from someone who grew up or lives outside it. In the context of this play - and in the place where it is being staged - as with the criticism levelled at him for his depiction of rural Ireland or the US, it's something that feels relevant.
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Post by wiggymess on Oct 16, 2018 10:14:53 GMT
him being from London has to do with it I don't know where you are from, but the worldview and opportunities of someone from London are very different from someone who grew up or lives outside it. In the context of this play - and in the place where it is being staged - as with the criticism levelled at him for his depiction of rural Ireland or the US, it's something that feels relevant. I'm not from, nor have ever lived in the capital. I'm from somewhere pretty different to London. Looks like we will have to disagree on this one I'm afraid, I think the 'London' criticism is a little too 'all encompassing' when used in this way, because of the mixture of people who would consider themselves Londoners, and I think it plays into a slightly narrow outside view of what a Londoner is. I would understand it holding weight as a criticism if he was writing plays specifically and exclusively about middle-class London life, but he actively isn't, and I really wouldn't want him to. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the play - understand from other posts you have to travel far to visit London which must make the disappointment worse. I was very tempted to book for this but held off and at the moment I'm fairly glad I did.
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Post by crowblack on Oct 16, 2018 11:00:22 GMT
plays into a slightly narrow outside view of what a Londoner is. I lived in London full time for 15 years, studied there, worked there, I have close family there, many friends there etc.... Anyway, it'll be interesting to see the reviews.
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Post by mallardo on Oct 16, 2018 11:47:33 GMT
him being from London has to do with it I don't know where you are from, but the worldview and opportunities of someone from London are very different from someone who grew up or lives outside it. In the context of this play - and in the place where it is being staged - as with the criticism levelled at him for his depiction of rural Ireland or the US, it's something that feels relevant.
I can't speak for rural Ireland but McDonagh's depiction of the US (specifically Missouri) in Three Billboards was right on the money.
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Post by harry on Oct 16, 2018 18:44:43 GMT
I saw this last night (preview 3).My overriding thought is that it felt very preview-y, timing a bit off in places, too-slow and noisy set changes, slightly tentative and under-powered performances. But I can also see that a lot of that may well tweak up and this could be a hit by the time the reviewers are in. What I'm interested in is people's objection to the content. Minor spoilers... {Spoiler}{Spoiler - click to view} As I see it the play is about a character who is specifically black, of very small stature, and missing a foot. Many of the other characters make derogatory comments towards her because of these things, but the play seems very clear that they are in the wrong and that she is ultimately the heroine and can outsmart them all despite them thinking they are superior. I completely understand that from a white able bodied person's perspective I'm not really in a position to comment, but I'm genuinely (i.e. not just stirring the pot) interested to hear what people found offensive, and hopefully understand the strong negative reaction from some quarters.
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Post by foxa on Oct 16, 2018 19:22:44 GMT
I notice some folks on twitter are describing this as 'bonkers!' - which seems to be a kind code for a stinker ('Pity' was also 'bonkers!')
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Oct 16, 2018 19:35:19 GMT
Bonkers means mad, surely?
There’s a problem with discussions about theatre, at least early in a run. When few people have seen something then there isn’t much of a knowledgeable discussion to be had. Sadly, I booked for this in January, so I wont get to make a meaningful contribution until it’s nearly over.
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Post by paddy72 on Oct 16, 2018 19:56:20 GMT
Saw this last night and ‘harry’ is right. It isn’t ready yet. Which is not to say it won’t be great but my advice is to wait a bit before seeing. Jim Broadbent is really funny and the only one I thought that was on point. Regardless, it is an odd piece of work. Very short, ( it says 1 hour 30 in the programme but I reckon we were done by 1 hour 15) and I think it could really be made much darker and given more meaning with some extra work on the writing. I also kept thinking that it would have worked better in an older house. Suspension of both rational and belief are crucial to getting what’s going on and so a nice clean anodyne auditorium didn’t help. I wouldn’ want to bet on which way the critics will go it. Positive I hope.
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Post by crowblack on Oct 16, 2018 20:42:31 GMT
Sounds like they may have cut a fair bit already - it was a few mins late starting on Friday but I think it still ran over 1hr30.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 21:37:03 GMT
Yes, and they're generally handled in a comic, flippant way in a work by a white able-bodied male London writer, which is what I think some (including me) will have issues with. And I'm sorry if that makes me sound po-faced and joyless because I'm not - I love dark comedy but I think this sort of thing has to be brilliant and come from some sort of place of understanding and experience for the writer to 'earn' it Oh dear, this is putting me off massively. After the way he handled race (badly) in the dreadful Three Billboards I am wondering if I should bother. He made some pretty dire racist jokes in Hangmen too. The only jokes in that play that were met with silence, which makes me wonder why he didn't take them out. He got into a lot of trouble in the States around racism. I wish he'd leave the issue alone.
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Post by eatbigsea on Oct 16, 2018 22:22:24 GMT
Oh dear oh dear oh dear. I’m afraid it reminded me of Tarantino’s Pulp Fiction, but without any verve or energy. {Spoiler - click to view} I suspect the “Pygmy in a box” is the new “dead n-word storage.” It was controversial in 1994, and tying it superficially to the Belgian Congo in 2018 isn’t going to make it any more palatable. {Spoiler - click to view} Just because the woman in the box is clever (and might ultimately win, in some hypothetical scenario that doesn’t make any sense) really doesn’t make this acceptable. The scenes in London were marginally preferable, but only because {Spoiler - click to view} the thing in the cupboard was literally a skeleton and the characters’ interaction was more or less among equals. I see what he was trying to do, but it wasn’t sophisticated or (in my opinion) very intellectually interesting. I may be too North American to get this, but I can pretty much promise that it will never, ever transfer to New York in its current form.
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Post by crowblack on Oct 16, 2018 23:00:44 GMT
Does anybody know what the view is like from the front row for this production? Or how high the stage is? If you look up the hashtag #averyveryverydarkmatter on Instagram, someone has posted a photo of the curtain call showing the set and stage etc.
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