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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2017 19:45:26 GMT
I think the reclaiming of the word queer has been going on for quite some time, I personally think that it's brilliant that LGBT+ people are flipping on its head something that was used to marginalise them not so long ago. If you call yourself the name, it suddenly removes the motivation for someone else to call you it as an insult. Not all derogatory terms were even intended to be such, sometimes a generally accepted phrase will be abused and therefore quickly replaced by a new one. This sounds made up but the word "spastic" used to be the official term to refer to a person with cerebral palsy. The CP charity Scope was actually called the Spastic Society up until 1994. It was only when kids starting saying to one another "you're a spastic" in the playground and imitating the condition that it was phased out and something a little less catchy took its place. I mean it doesn't stop you being a tw*t if you call someone that, but it hasn't always been such an off-limits word. I'm not sure how many of you know but I'm transgender and am starting my hormones this autumn. I remember being with a group of friends and we were talking about which Friends character we were each most like, and I said "probably Chandler if he was a bit more of a tranny" and everything suddenly went very silent. Someone looked at me and said "I can't believe you just said that" to which I replied "why not? I am one!" The difference of course is when I say that the word "tranny" it's seen as liberating and brave (please stop calling everything I do brave, I'm not brave) and when someone else says it then they're a transphobe and should surrender themselves for re-education immediately. The fewer words that we allow to be taboo, the less we can be hurt by. I don't feel the need to spend my life permanently offended because someone stumbled over their words and accidentally said "normal" when referring to someone who isn't transgender. Statistically we're less than 1% of the population so normal is probably a more accurate description than "gender non-variant aligning with assigned birth anatomy" or whatever it is the authoritarian powers that be have decided the only non-oppressive term is this week. I'm queer and I'm proud, so let's shout that word from the rooftops so that Fred from Hastings who thinks that gay people are a plague sent by God to punish us needs to find himself a new slur
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Post by shady23 on Aug 29, 2017 19:59:20 GMT
That story reminds me of when a black friend of mine at work was accused to being racist because they made a joke about not getting a tan when they were on holiday.
Absolutely ridiculous.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2017 22:16:54 GMT
It's like Craig Revel Horwood calling men darling on Strictly, the late great Freddie Mercury used to call people darling too I've heard.
As regards tranny for many years that word was associated with transvestite its only been in more recent years that it has been included in LGBT and the transexual meaning has come to the fore.
Some women didn't like being called Love when the feminist movement was getting going, I've known older women who will call people Love as a greeting to younger people so it is all about how people perceive it.
I hate racism yet I am often very politically incorrect.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Aug 30, 2017 0:09:58 GMT
I'm a terrible luvvie. I was with an actress friend recently and we spent a good few minutes taking the piss out of people who call each other "darling" then as we were saying goodbye she pointed out I had non-ironically called her "darling" without even realising it.
It's a terrible addiction, being a luvvie. There should be a support group. On the other hand there are worse things to be called than darling.
To try to bring this back to topic, the artist who made the Bush's recent play 'Hir' (about trans* issues) uses the personal pronoun judy, which is rather fabulous.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 7:46:09 GMT
Some really good points above. I recently finished Eddie Izzard's book and he talks a lot about both gender identity and the words to describe it- he used transvestite for much of his life, as that was both the 'acceptable' and for him most 'appropriate' word (for Eddie, personally at those points in time) and he talks about 'upgrading' to 'transgender' when that became the 'correct' word. But if you see his stand up he still uses 'transvestite' to talk about himself, because he's so used to it. It's hard when the outside world is telling you that you can't use a word you're used to as much as the other way around is I think my point.
But also as above words are used with the best of intentions. My parents both born in the 40s long used words to describe race, religion and sexuality with the very best of intentions, because they'd been told at a certain point these were the 'correct' words. But until someone tells you different (and in the pre-internet age as well) it's hard to realise what you say with the best of intentions is actually offensive.
The latter is what annoys me with the internet's social justice warriors- there's an assumption everything is done through malice, whereas actually the majority of people just aren't aware.
eta: I have a terrible habit of saying 'sweetie' or 'dear' ironically which I just KNOW is going to start slipping into conversation non-ironically.
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Post by kathryn on Aug 30, 2017 8:29:53 GMT
I know that a lot of people get very het up when people explain that they didn't intend to offend someone by using a 'wrong' word - the phrase 'intent is not f***ing magic' gets thrown around a lot. It's absolutely true that not intending to hurt someone doesn't mean that you didn't hurt them. On the other hand it should be a lot easier to understand and forgive when someone explains that they made a mistake, and had no malice, surely?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 8:38:15 GMT
I know that a lot of people get very het up when people explain that they didn't intend to offend someone by using a 'wrong' word - the phrase 'intent is not f***ing magic' gets thrown around a lot. It's absolutely true that not intending to hurt someone doesn't mean that you didn't hurt them. On the other hand it should be a lot easier to understand and forgive when someone explains that they made a mistake, and had no malice, surely? Yes exactly that- obviously it isn't a 'get out of jail free' card that you 'didn't realise' and some things/words by now people should obviously realise not to use. BUT if someone is genuinely apologetic, and willing to be educated- a simple 'hey I wasn't aware of that, but I am now, sorry for any offence' should be acceptable. However the legions of the internet are so quick to pounce on someone as a pariah for simple mis-using a word or similar...seems very short sighted in a world full of actual racists and the like. Sigh, people etc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 12:35:22 GMT
My mum was born in mid 1940's so is the same generation as Emi's parents and she uses some terms that I find uncomfortable but she certainly wouldn't be considered a racist IMO.
What say a child is taught in school today cannot always expect to filter down to an older generation.
At work a few weeks back we were trying to decide something and a colleague in her early 30's suggested we do "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe" jokingly and was horrified to discover there was a racist version of that when a couple of us said don't say that whatever you do and she asked why.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 15:12:27 GMT
There will never be a word or label to satisfy everyone as we are all individuals. Its important to remember that people dont give offence, people take offence, and only you can decide what you want to take.
Terms have changed so much over the years that i can no longer keep up, and before anyone lectures me about it, the term 'cis' just baffles me.
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Post by The Matthew on Aug 30, 2017 15:47:27 GMT
the term 'cis' just baffles me Having studied chemistry I can't help interpreting it as "What? You mean your groups are on the same side of your double bond?"
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 30, 2017 16:25:17 GMT
I looked after a Co-op Insurance Services contract for years so that's what I get when I see CIS.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 16:32:44 GMT
There will never be a word or label to satisfy everyone as we are all individuals. Its important to remember that people dont give offence, people take offence, and only you can decide what you want to take. Terms have changed so much over the years that i can no longer keep up, and before anyone lectures me about it, the term 'cis' just baffles me. I hate the word "cis" too, I think it was first used by a German sexologist (yup, that's a thing) in the late 90s but really gained traction when the gender studies crowd picked it up around 2010. Even when you lump in all of the male to female / female to male transitionees and people who are gender fluid / variant / non-conforming, they still make up less than 1% of the population, so why is it necessary to have a term at all? For all the talk of "we have more in common than that which divides us" we aren't half desperate to categorise everyone into their individual groups and harp on about how nobody else understands what we're going through. Ahhh f**k off.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 16:43:09 GMT
Cis is just the most pointless word to me. So you were born male and consider yourself male and so you are a cis male. Why cant you just be male?? As you so eloquently put it, F*** off!
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 30, 2017 17:08:23 GMT
I think the idea is to make cis people feel guilty for their cis privilege. Or at least that is how I keep seeing it being used.
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Post by kathryn on Aug 30, 2017 17:50:59 GMT
I think Cis is a useful term for people talking about trans issues within that community, where people may well need to make the distinction because trans people would normally be the majority. It's less useful for talking to people outside that community because you have to stop and explain/justify it every time for the very large number of people who have never had cause to encounter it before.
Edit: Though I think oxfordsimon has probably got the nail on the head - it *is* used in practice to point out the privilege that non-trans people have, as a form of activism. Anyone remember Eddie Redmayne on the Danish Girl press tour? That guy had seriously done his research and really did have all the terminology and talking points down, and yet he still had interviewers asking him about his gender identity as if it was something he should be ashamed of. He declined to comment on it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 19:55:23 GMT
I hadn't heard of CIS before today, it sounds like something you'd treat with natural yogurt to be honest.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 30, 2017 20:14:13 GMT
No-one should be ashamed of their gender identity. No-one should be forced to issue an apology because of how they were born.
However there is a growing fetishisation around trans-identity and gender-otherness which has little to do with the deep-rooted issues that those who are struggling with gender dysphoria. By creating many new sub-categories of gender identity, we are risking diverting attention and resources from those in real need of help by celebrating a group of people who are just playing at dress-up.
By wishing to appear as liberal as possible in accepting people who wish to identify and live their lives in an 'other' way, we are not always helping those who really need support.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 20:44:34 GMT
No-one should be ashamed of their gender identity. No-one should be forced to issue an apology because of how they were born. However there is a growing fetishisation around trans-identity and gender-otherness which has little to do with the deep-rooted issues that those who are struggling with gender dysphoria. By creating many new sub-categories of gender identity, we are risking diverting attention and resources from those in real need of help by celebrating a group of people who are just playing at dress-up. By wishing to appear as liberal as possible in accepting people who wish to identify and live their lives in an 'other' way, we are not always helping those who really need support. Amen.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 21:33:54 GMT
There certainly seems to be more transgender people around today than say 25 or 30 years ago. Maybe it is publicised more, it's not like people are more comfortable to come out today and be open about their sexuality, transgender people would have been around regardless.
I am referring to people who were born transgender mainly not those who may have felt uncomfortable in their body and who have opted for gender reassignment - the later has clearly increased in recent years but that is due to more openness and surgical advances etc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 21:52:17 GMT
I don't think of it as creating many new sub-categories of gender identity though, we're just naming them now. I had a conversation with my dad recently; he thought it strange that there are so many transgender people around now and that they just didn't happen historically, but all it really is is that people are more able to talk about it as it becomes more normalised and we develop the vocabulary to do so.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 30, 2017 22:00:05 GMT
There is certainly a greater awareness of trans issues. This is largely due to the internet age - people have a greater ability to find out information which helps them understand how they are feeling, a greater ability to find a community of others who are experiencing similar things.
There have been a number of significant legislative changes which have been aimed at helping trans people - so that has also contributed to the apparent 'growth' in numbers.
However there has also been an increase in early years diagnoses of gender dysphoria which has raised a number of issues as to how pre-teens can really be said to be aware of the issues of gender and their identity. Should hormones be given before the onset of puberty? Is surgery at an early age the best option? I don't think there is consensus around these issues in the medical community at present and we should tread carefully.
It is a very complex set of issues and it is very difficult to know what is for the best - especially when you don't have personal insight of living as a trans individual.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 30, 2017 22:07:44 GMT
I don't think of it as creating many new sub-categories of gender identity though, we're just naming them now. I had a conversation with my dad recently; he thought it strange that there are so many transgender people around now and that they just didn't happen historically, but all it really is is that people are more able to talk about it as it becomes more normalised and we develop the vocabulary to do so. It is when I see lists like this: genderfluidsupport.tumblr.com/gender - that I really do question how far things should be allowed to go. (as far as I can tell, that link is a genuine, sincere posting aimed at helping people - even though it does, in places, read like a parody)
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 30, 2017 22:18:00 GMT
I don't think of it as creating many new sub-categories of gender identity though, we're just naming them now. I had a conversation with my dad recently; he thought it strange that there are so many transgender people around now and that they just didn't happen historically, but all it really is is that people are more able to talk about it as it becomes more normalised and we develop the vocabulary to do so. It is when I see lists like this: genderfluidsupport.tumblr.com/gender - that I really do question how far things should be allowed to go. I'm starting to feel better about 'queer' 😐
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 30, 2017 22:24:42 GMT
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Post by Honoured Guest on Aug 30, 2017 22:55:42 GMT
Cis is just the most pointless word to me. So you were born male and consider yourself male and so you are a cis male. Why cant you just be male?? You can just be male. But you are also either cis male or transgender male. You may prefer not to say which you are. (Hello, Admin ...).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2017 8:03:03 GMT
The idea behind having cis-male and trans-male as options is that it sets them up equally, whereas if we don't have cis-male and just use plain ol' "male" as the default, then someone who is trans-male is automatically othered, made to feel less valid and like an outsider. And, okay, there are way fewer trans-male people than cis-male people, but that doesn't mean they're not normal. There are more dogs than pandas in the world, but the panda is still valid.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2017 8:04:06 GMT
Related to all the above, I saw an interesting documentary last night 'Britain on Film LGBT Britain' (https://www.chapter.org/britain-film-lgbt-britain-pg) the link has the full list of documentaries it included clips from, but it was a perfect example of 'well meaning but now unacceptable' in terms of the way interviewers questioned gay and trans people. But a fascinating collection of clips, if it's showing near any of you do check it out.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 31, 2017 8:22:58 GMT
The idea behind having cis-male and trans-male as options is that it sets them up equally, whereas if we don't have cis-male and just use plain ol' "male" as the default, then someone who is trans-male is automatically othered, made to feel less valid and like an outsider. And, okay, there are way fewer trans-male people than cis-male people, but that doesn't mean they're not normal. There are more dogs than pandas in the world, but the panda is still valid. Whilst I can see that, the desire of many people who transition is to live as their new gender not to be something other. There are those who also wish to constantly proclaim their otherness by putting the focus on the trans part of their identity. Cis is being overused by a very small but very vocal minority of academics and activists to create division where most people want to see unity. As I said earlier, no one should be blamed for how they were born. Cis is being used for exactly that purpose and that, to my mind, diminishes any positive intent behind the creation of that label.
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Post by Honoured Guest on Aug 31, 2017 8:43:50 GMT
Okay, so some people don't like the reason they perceive that some other people use "cis".
But other people will continue to use the word as a descriptive term, thank you very much.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2017 10:25:57 GMT
There certainly seems to be more transgender people around today than say 25 or 30 years ago. Maybe it is publicised more, it's not like people are more comfortable to come out today and be open about their sexuality, transgender people would have been around regardless. I am referring to people who were born transgender mainly not those who may have felt uncomfortable in their body and who have opted for gender reassignment - the later has clearly increased in recent years but that is due to more openness and surgical advances etc. I'm pretty sure there is no difference between those two things. By "born transgender" do you mean intersex? That's an anatomical problem where you're born with a chromosome imbalance or more notoriously with genitalia that doesn't correspond to your biological sex. I think there are definitely people who use transgender-ism (not a word) as a trend. They're usually the ones who want to shout the loudest about how oppressed they are. As someone who experienced debilitating gender dysphoria all through my childhood and teenage years, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It's like a toothache that at its best is a dull nagging pain and its worst is like someone clamping your face into a vice and inserting a small chainsaw into your mouth. It's completely counter intuitive because my brain is as female as could be, but I have a male body, and it's like both are constantly fighting against one another. It's not a social trend, it's not something cute to put on a T-Shirt, it is a severe mental illness. We can't even say it's a mental illness any more because that implies there's something wrong with it but there is, your brain just doesn't work properly. I don't think hormones or puberty blockers should be given to children except under very extreme circumstances. Children change. One week they like Spiderman, the next they like Batman. It is child abuse to inflict upon someone too young to even express their thoughts coherently something that is irreversible, leads to infertility, and could substantially increase their risk of various health conditions down the line. It's just wrong. In my case it would have been the right thing to do but nobody could have known that, I could have reached 13, changed my mind, and been totally screwed. I still don't like the word "cis". I also don't like the concept of "privilege". Instead of saying "this group have had a rough time of it, let's make things better for them", you're saying "this group have had it TOO good, let's remove those benefits they have". It's not privilege if you're able to walk down the street at night and notfeel threatened, it's a basic human right. It's not privilege to be able to see yourself represented on television, it's what everyone should be able to expect. The reason there is such opposition to social justice is because a) a large proportion of it is stupid and counter-productive and b) the whole concept is framed around bringing people down and not building people up. The fact that in the last few years it's become acceptable to make abhorrently rude and unsubstantiated comments about entire groups (white people, men, cisgender people, straight people) illustrates that it's completely missed the mark.
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