523 posts
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Post by vabbian on May 15, 2019 11:59:37 GMT
They should have done season 8 - Night King plot season 9 - Mad Queen plot
they done f***ed up Game of Thrones
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Post by sparky5000 on May 15, 2019 12:06:37 GMT
Dany was not born to rule. Her brother was ahead of her in the line of succession. She could have stopped her brother's murder but didn't. Her ruthless side has been there from season 1. Even Jon Snow has executed people who have betrayed him. All of the characters have been ruthless to varying degrees. This is Game of Thrones! But that doesn’t mean that her sudden switch to crazy mad queen who’s just gonna torch hundreds of thousands of innocents for the heck of it makes any sense. The writers have said that it wasn’t a pre-conceived move and that Daenerys snapped when she saw the Red Keep, but in which case why didn’t she just fly straight there and take out Cersei. And if it really is as simple as “well she’s mad because she’s a Targaryen and that’s why she did it” then what really has been the point!
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Post by kathryn on May 15, 2019 12:43:24 GMT
Dany was not born to rule. Her brother was ahead of her in the line of succession. She could have stopped her brother's murder but didn't. Her ruthless side has been there from season 1. Even Jon Snow has executed people who have betrayed him. All of the characters have been ruthless to varying degrees. This is Game of Thrones! But that doesn’t mean that her sudden switch to crazy mad queen who’s just gonna torch hundreds of thousands of innocents for the heck of it makes any sense. The writers have said that it wasn’t a pre-conceived move and that Daenerys snapped when she saw the Red Keep, but in which case why didn’t she just fly straight there and take out Cersei. And if it really is as simple as “well she’s mad because she’s a Targaryen and that’s why she did it” then what really has been the point! This is the problem with bumping off the Night King and walkers so quickly, and in the way they did. I would absolutely buy that the point of all the build-up was to handle the existential threat to humanity and the unfortunate side-effect is that Westeros has to deal with the the fall-out of Mad Queen Daenerys afterwards, deal-with-the-devil style. But for that the walkers needed to pose a much bigger threat than they ultimately did and Dany/Jon and the dragons needed to be much more instrumental in defeating them. I'm aware people will tell me that it's all about subverting the expectations of the traditional fantasy genre. But you can only subvert so many expectations before you end up with a thoroughly unsatisfying experience - those expectations are there for a reason.
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Post by orchidman on May 15, 2019 14:01:01 GMT
Also, it's not that Daenerys devolving into a Mad Queen couldn't have worked as a plot, it's that the execution of it was totally inept.
It would actually be way more believable based on her experiences and previous actions if Arya rather than Daenerys snapped and killed lots of innocent people.
And Daenerys's father, the Mad King, only wanted to burn down the capital when he was under seige and about to lose everything. Now that's crazy but you can see how those extreme circumstances could push a vulnerable mind over the edge. Daenerys burns down the capital HAVING WON. So what she did is several gradations crazier than the exemplar for madness in the story, having previously acted in her rational self-interest.
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Post by hal9000 on May 15, 2019 15:01:09 GMT
Only executing the men of the Nightswatch wasn't ruthless, it was the punishment for treasonous murder plot in their leader. When Dany watched Viserys burn, she did it with the eyes of a zealot when he showed he wasn't a dragon. Her belief in her ability to withstand fire is not unlike Melisandre's and Stannis' fundamentalist fervour. She implied in 801 to Jon that if Sansa wasn't more respectful, she'd be punished! This is the Sansa who bent the knee and opened Winterfell to Dany's troops - Dany just didn't like her bitchy attitude. Dany wants more than bending the knee, she wants to be worshipped. Unlike the brown populations she conquered who were bamboozled in by her magic to worship her like a goddess, grateful colonials or terrified enough by her dragons to at least pretend to respect her, to the people of Westeros she's potentially another wacko Targaryen who nukes at will. Dany is discovering that she relied on love and admiration more than she expected. Since Season 1 she's had multiple men in love with her doing her bidding and would be happy to die for her and two robot-like armies who do whatever she wants. Even now Jon will still do her bidding, but she's realising he no longer loves her as he did. So much of these past 2 seasons would have been better if the events took place over the standard 10 episodes and if GRRM had contributed to the dialogue. The show has been worse off for the lack of those quite conversations between But I'm not hating it as much as most people because I've not been as interested since half the cast left King's Landing in season 4.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 15, 2019 19:59:53 GMT
how they dealt with Daenerys There are now several very well argued backlash-to-the-backlash pieces online defending the episode - I've just gone back and watched the clip of Dany's vision from series 2 and there it is, the throne room in ruins and full of not snow but ash. Be funny if after eight series and all that fire she has melted the iron throne
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 15, 2019 20:01:18 GMT
They should have done season 8 - Night King plot season 9 - Mad Queen plot they done f***ed up Game of Thrones or episodes 1-5 and 6-10, feel cheated
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 15, 2019 20:09:28 GMT
They should have done season 8 - Night King plot season 9 - Mad Queen plot they done f***ed up Game of Thrones or episodes 1-5 and 6-10, feel cheated Derek Smalls predicted the ending of GoT all those years ago
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523 posts
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Post by vabbian on May 15, 2019 20:15:30 GMT
Yes, cheated indeed.
I saw an interview, the writers said they intended to do a shorter series to focus on quality, rather than quantity.
exsqueeze me but where the f*** is the quality
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2,389 posts
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Post by peggs on May 15, 2019 21:21:37 GMT
Well that was dissatisfying. Now to go back and read what you all think.
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2,389 posts
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Post by peggs on May 15, 2019 21:40:28 GMT
I got bored of all the burning, you knew after a few flared nostrils that was where we were heading and then pretty much did burning and rubble for rest of episode. I did think the fear thing is also for the rest of the kingdoms, burn Kingslanding and no one really is going to argue with you unless you can take out Drogon. And that losing her two longest standing side kicks had rather a huge impact. Disappointed by endings of characters, no one got eaten feet first by a dragon, sigh. Kept telling Jamie to use that metal hand of his as a weapon, surely it would have worked as a club? So last episode Jon offs her? I did wonder if he could sort of over rule her dragon control but doesn't seem likely.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 16, 2019 16:45:47 GMT
I got bored of all the burning, you knew after a few flared nostrils that was where we were heading and then pretty much did burning and rubble for rest of episode. I did think the fear thing is also for the rest of the kingdoms, burn Kingslanding and no one really is going to argue with you unless you can take out Drogon. And that losing her two longest standing side kicks had rather a huge impact. Disappointed by endings of characters, no one got eaten feet first by a dragon, sigh. Kept telling Jamie to use that metal hand of his as a weapon, surely it would have worked as a club? So last episode Jon offs her? I did wonder if he could sort of over rule her dragon control but doesn't seem likely. If Bran can mind f@?# ravens, horses and a dire wolf what is to stop him controlling a dragon
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Post by oxfordsimon on May 16, 2019 16:50:20 GMT
Speculation today that Jaime survived the falling masonry...
Who knows what will happen?!
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Post by londonpostie on May 16, 2019 17:21:47 GMT
tbf, it was a bit more than masonry ... I've seen the 5 of this season in rather quick succession which probably isn't helpful. At times I though the Long Night was a remake of John Wayne's Alamo film from the 1960s but maybe a chaps-together Last Stand trope is just that. This latest one - the 5th; The Bells - felt like a comment piece on everything from Fallujah to Aleppo, or was it the concrete dust winter of Manhattan on 9/11
An awful lot to digest. Not sure how much further it's possible to take this 2D brutalism - at least without a virtual reality headset.
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Post by peggs on May 16, 2019 17:27:35 GMT
Speculation today that Jaime survived the falling masonry... Who knows what will happen?! Was he not also rather full of holes? Don't think you come back from that.
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Post by londonpostie on May 16, 2019 17:30:06 GMT
Yep, approximately speaking, he waved goodbye to his kidneys and liver on the beach. With his remaining hand.
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2,962 posts
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Post by crowblack on May 16, 2019 17:49:05 GMT
If Bran can mind f@?# ravens, horses and a dire wolf what is to stop him controlling a dragon Ah, that could be why he's still alive! I thought he and the Night King might cancel each other out but as he survived that episode he must still have a role to play in the final act.
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523 posts
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Post by vabbian on May 16, 2019 18:53:53 GMT
I hope Robin Arryn wins the game of thrones
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 16, 2019 20:31:55 GMT
I hope Robin Arryn wins the game of thrones He he, I was team Cersei but if she is no longer and the Hound has gone, I have shifted allegiance to Tormund
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 16, 2019 20:32:12 GMT
I hope Robin Arryn wins the game of thrones He he, I was team Cersei but if she is no longer and the Hound has gone, I have shifted allegiance to Tormund Or Gilly
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523 posts
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Post by vabbian on May 16, 2019 22:58:36 GMT
Gilly on the throne, Robin Arryn as the hand of the queen
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Post by jadnoop on May 16, 2019 23:40:32 GMT
I've finally all caught up. Who could've guessed that so much dragon-based destruction could be quite so boring.
My prediction is that Sansa ends on the throne (Jon will help to off Daenerys, but decide he doesn't want the throne), but to be honest I'm struggling to care...
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2,962 posts
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Post by crowblack on May 17, 2019 8:37:26 GMT
I'm really surprised by the backlash. Apart from the first episode (twee dragon ride) I think this has been great. There was a lot of stuff in the earlier, presumably GRR Martin-based episodes that was dull or silly or dragged on and on, esp with Dany's storyline, Arya in that assassin school series, the Theon torture porn series etc.. if the Red Wedding (one of the best bits) occurred now fans would be howling in dismay, rather than congratulating the series for shocking them as they did then.
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Post by jadnoop on May 17, 2019 9:20:33 GMT
f the Red Wedding (one of the best bits) occurred now fans would be howling in dismay, rather than congratulating the series for shocking them as they did then. I don't think that's true. (and more importantly, I don't think that the writers would do that sort of thing any more). At it's best, Game of Thrones has been happy for things to happen because they make sense given the characters' motivations, rather than because they feed into some over-arching narrative. This might be treated simply as 'nobody's safe in Game of Thrones' but it felt, at least to me, much more organic and alive than that. The Red Wedding, Ned Stark's death, Prince Oberyn's death, and so on stood out not just because they were unexpected, but also because looking back they make sense within in the world; they didn't feel (at least to me) like scenes that happened simply because GRRM willed them to happen (although, of course, I appreciate that GRRM has had some overarching narrative in mind). In contrast, this season has had so many scenes that don't feel like they make any 'real' sense, but would be expected in a more mainstream hollywood narrative (or, if I was being mean, fan fiction) because they serve a purpose: In this case largely to show what the screenwriters might think that the fans want to see: - Does it make sense that within all the anarchy only Cersei and Jamie meet each other just in time for her to realise her folly, and to die in embrace? No, but that final hug in front of collapsing buildings sure looks fab.
- Does it make sense for Sandor and Gregor to have a final one-to-one showdown? Nope, but they're brothers!
- Does it make sense for Euron Greyjoy to be the sole survivor of the sea battle who happens to land on the beach at the same time & location as Jamie? No, but he's a major antagonist now, so needs a cool ending. - Does it make sense for (pretty much) all of the main characters to survive the battle with the white walkers? No, but wouldn't it be sweet if Gilly and Samwell to go off into the sunset.
- and on and on...All these scenes might be fine in another show, but none of these things make sense if Westeros is supposed to be 'alive'. I have little doubt that there have been similar coincidences that happened in previous seasons but the issue is that they seem to happen in such quick succession this season.
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Post by asfound on May 17, 2019 9:39:10 GMT
if the Red Wedding (one of the best bits) occurred now fans would be howling in dismay, rather than congratulating the series for shocking them as they did then. Nobody is complaining about anything being shocking though. People are complaining that the bad writing, lack of development and Hollywood-isation of the last couple of seasons mean that what should be shocking simply isn't. The twists just aren't having an impact when they're so contrived and out of character.
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Post by crowblack on May 17, 2019 9:55:50 GMT
I don't think that's true. (and more importantly, I don't think that the writers would do that sort of thing any more). I think they would, in the current social media climate - and had the series not been based on pre-existing books I think the writers would have been under pressure from the studios to scrap it altogether, given the popularity of the characters. Yes, there were some ludicrous coincidences (Euron on the beach stood out) but fantasy fiction/film and 19thc melodramas are full of them. When Star Trek TNG killed off a popular character in a 'natural' way, rather than in a mega showdown, fans complained and she had a quasi-return via a parallel universe as a fan service. We've had Jon come back from the dead, and Arya must be made of whatever Wile E Coyote is made of to survive the stuff she's been though. I think writers will get flak either way.
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Post by crowblack on May 17, 2019 9:58:53 GMT
Nobody is complaining about anything being shocking though. Some are - they're angered that a character they like (and in many cases named their children after!) is now (in their words, not mine) the 'villain'.
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Post by oxfordsimon on May 17, 2019 10:06:38 GMT
Whilst I acknowledge that everyone is entitled to their opinions and it is great the people are so invested in the show - I am now totally over what feels like excessive negativity that has been circulating in recent weeks.
The early seasons certainly had plenty of flaws. And they were more closely based on the source books (which are over-packed with detail, characters, lore and more)
Yet there are many loud voices seeming to believe that everything upto the end of season 6 was near perfection and everything after it has been utter trash.
And that is simply not true.
I just take it all as it comes, enjoy it for what it is, have fun with the wild speculation - but it is still a piece of fantasy. The production values have, on the whole, been outstanding. There has been some brilliant directing, some great performances.
Would I have enjoyed seeing Lady Stoneheart? Very possibly. Did the narrative work without her? Yes, perfectly well for me.
There are still people who bemoan the fact that Tom Bombadil didn't make it into the LOTR movies. That was the point at which I stopped reading the books.
For those who are saying that seasons 7 and 8 are too short - I would point to The Hobbit movies which over-extended the source material to such an extent that it was almost unwatchable. The balance isn't always easy to get right - but sometimes longer doesn't necessarily mean better.
If you are happy with GoT - great, continue to enjoy it. If you are unhappy - there is nothing you can do to change it. Accept it is what it is and if it upsets you that much, just don't watch. It is disappointing when something you have enjoyed doesn't play out as you had hoped - but it isn't worth the anger and upset it has provoked.
Or perhaps I am just too chilled (which I can't quite believe of myself!)
Anyway, roll on Sunday - I am looking forward to it!
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Post by jadnoop on May 17, 2019 10:16:32 GMT
I don't think that's true. (and more importantly, I don't think that the writers would do that sort of thing any more). I think they would, in the current social media climate - and had the series not been based on pre-existing books I think the writers would have been under pressure from the studios to scrap it altogether, given the popularity of the characters. Yes, there were some ludicrous coincidences (Euron on the beach stood out) but fantasy fiction/film and 19thc melodramas are full of them. When Star Trek TNG killed off a popular character in a 'natural' way, rather than in a mega showdown, fans complained and she had a quasi-return via a parallel universe as a fan service. We've had Jon come back from the dead, and Arya must be made of whatever Wile E Coyote is made of to survive the stuff she's been though. I think writers will get flak either way. As you say, there have been contrivances in the plot to date (although Arya's didn't bother me to be honest), but my feeling is that it's the pace of these things that's made them stand out in this season. I read that HBO wanted a further two series of 10 episodes each, and it was Weiss and Benioff who pushed for a single season of 6. Presumably they made that decision for artistic reasons, but I can't help but think that spreading out all these coincidences across 20 hours (as well as giving Daenerys more time to transition from slightly conflicted to out-and-out psychopath) would've helped them to not be quite so apparent. In terms of Star Trek, it's been a long time since I saw it, but my recollection is that (as much as it was great and progressive) it was a far more straight forward episodic show than GOT: more clear cut good and bad guys, each episode wrapping up nicely, and so on. In Game of Thrones, having a few major characters 'just' die in battle might have been a little disappointing, but (in my opinion) it would have fit well with the show, and certainly have been preferable to having pretty much all the main characters 'luckily' survive. I certainly wouldn't call this season a complete failure, and I'm (cautiously) looking forward to the finale.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 17, 2019 16:14:06 GMT
if the Red Wedding (one of the best bits) occurred now fans would be howling in dismay, rather than congratulating the series for shocking them as they did then. Nobody is complaining about anything being shocking though. People are complaining that the bad writing, lack of development and Hollywood-isation of the last couple of seasons mean that what should be shocking simply isn't. The twists just aren't having an impact when they're so contrived and out of character. This
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