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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 18:11:57 GMT
I was there last Friday It really wasn't full And many hadn't paid to be there But that isn't the Same as being empty Is it? Yes, it's not quite the same in my opinion
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Post by max on Dec 2, 2016 21:02:32 GMT
Well, yea, they cast Preeya Kalidas as Patty and I remember the black teacher. I guess I shouldn't have written "completely" but I basically meant that all his shows have white protagonists. Will we see a black Dewey Finn or a black Stephen Ward? I doubt it. If ALW wants more diversity why not write musicals that offer leading parts for BAME actors the way Bombay Dreams did or the shows Kathryn mentions such as The Colour Purple or Memphis. Although it's interesting to note that all of the shows mentioned, except Beckham, have American roots. "All his shows have white protagonists" is wrong. Jump back to 1984: Ray Shell (the protagonist hero), Lon Satton (the wise one), plus the then hot body-popping sensation Jeffrey Daniel and the legend PP Arnold in 'Starlight Express' London premiere cast. That's only the featured roles. More generally...Dihann Carol as Canada's Norma Desmond in 'Sunset Boulevard', Norm Lewis as Broadway's 'Phantom Of The Opera'(if only Sammy Davis Jr had played it two decades before). Numerous performers in 'Cats' over the years. Forget the adults, what about the kids in 'School Of Rock '? Across the 3 casts they'll be inspiring other young people of all backgrounds and ethnicities to look at the stage or poster and think 'that could be Me'. I think "well what have YOU done?" isn't the most sound reproach to this report.
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Post by djp on Dec 3, 2016 0:41:59 GMT
I do think Broadway Theater is more diverse. All 4 Musical Theater Tony Winners were non white. I do feel when Leanne Jones who is a big girl needs to go the voice and has had a lack of roles there is this idea of skinny white people should be the only ones to cast. Diversity is always good . But is 9 shows that have non white ast members good or bad Its got a far larger minority population - almost a majority population - which is the main reason Trump won. ALW needs to go to other musicals a bit - Hamilton Incoming, Motown, Memphis, DreamGirls, Bodyguard , Showboat, Sister Act ........ Bendit, and pretty colour blind casting in most other musicals - every role from Donkey and Bok to Eponine and Rum Tum Tugger recently. There's probably a higher percentage of top black actors working than there are white ones currently .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2016 18:25:14 GMT
Are there any other shows in London or coming to London next year that have an all-white cast though?
I know Half a Sixpence does.
I'm all for diversity in tetare, even if it they incorporate a person of colour into the ensemble, it can be done. 42nd Street have done it and included a lot in their ensemble
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 8:35:36 GMT
I don't know about future shows, but I'd hope that theatre can do better generally than putting "a person of colour into the ensemble". Reeks of tokenism. Only thing worse, frankly, is when shows have a single black woman in the cast and you JUST KNOW that it's because there's a big gospel-type number in the second act. I mean, yay, well done, in your writing you've acknowledged that POC exist, but wow did you have to go down the massive cliché route as though there are things that only POC do and for that matter that POC only do because frankly ew.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 8:59:15 GMT
I don't know about future shows, but I'd hope that theatre can do better generally than putting "a person of colour into the ensemble". Reeks of tokenism. Only thing worse, frankly, is when shows have a single black woman in the cast and you JUST KNOW that it's because there's a big gospel-type number in the second act. I mean, yay, well done, in your writing you've acknowledged that POC exist, but wow did you have to go down the massive cliché route as though there are things that only POC do and for that matter that POC only do because frankly ew. Yup- this annoyed me about the otherwise DELIGHTFULLY SILLY 'Something Rotten' the only POC ensemble member was and African American lady clearly only there to do the 'Dreamgirls' gag/notes. Also case in point of there is no reason for the ensemble not to be diverse- if you're all using American accents for a story about Shakespeare then you can have non white cast too...(as I mentioned above though Holiday Inn which I'd expect to have been whiter than white surpassed expectations in not only a lovely diverse ensemble but a POC lead in Corbin Bleu, so no excuse!)
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Post by mallardo on Dec 15, 2016 11:48:34 GMT
I don't think it affects your point re the ensemble of Something Rotten but the Minstrel who opens the show with Welcome To The Renaissance was Michael James Scott in the original cast, an African American actor, as is Andre Ward in the current cast.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 11:52:08 GMT
I don't think it affects your point re the ensemble of Something Rotten but the Minstrel who opens the show with Welcome To The Renaissance was Michael James Scott in the original cast, an African American actor, as is Andre Ward in the current cast. I stand corrected in the broader ensemble sense! (admittedly it was the last thing I saw in a long week so my powers of observation may not have been their best and/or there may have been understudies because I also didn't pay attention! ) But I think you're right the original point still stands.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 13:04:50 GMT
I don't know about future shows, but I'd hope that theatre can do better generally than putting "a person of colour into the ensemble". Reeks of tokenism. Only thing worse, frankly, is when shows have a single black woman in the cast and you JUST KNOW that it's because there's a big gospel-type number in the second act. I mean, yay, well done, in your writing you've acknowledged that POC exist, but wow did you have to go down the massive cliché route as though there are things that only POC do and for that matter that POC only do because frankly ew. I agree with this very much. I don't think any show really has much excuse for not having people of colour in a show.. Hamilton is a prime example of 'tearing up the rule book'.
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Xanderl
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Not always very high value in terms of ticket yield or donations
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Post by Xanderl on Dec 15, 2016 13:13:27 GMT
Went to see Wild Honey at Hampstead last week, the only non-white people on stage (and possibly in the entire building!) were in the small role as the messenger, and a second actor who turns up at the start as a servant carrying a box and later on as a peasant.
Which to me feels worse than having an entirely white cast, as they can't use the Trevor Nunn defence that the lack of diversity is due to some idea of "historical authenticity" ("OK, we ticked the diversity box with the box carrier, no need to worry about the leads")
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Post by Honoured Guest on Dec 15, 2016 18:30:33 GMT
Xanderl, you should have worn a turban or something in protest. Perhaps you did, or do?
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Post by Mark on Dec 16, 2016 10:32:54 GMT
I don't know about future shows, but I'd hope that theatre can do better generally than putting "a person of colour into the ensemble". Reeks of tokenism. Only thing worse, frankly, is when shows have a single black woman in the cast and you JUST KNOW that it's because there's a big gospel-type number in the second act. I mean, yay, well done, in your writing you've acknowledged that POC exist, but wow did you have to go down the massive cliché route as though there are things that only POC do and for that matter that POC only do because frankly ew. Same the other way though with Dreamgirls - token white guy to sing Cadillac car.
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 16, 2016 13:56:13 GMT
Are we saying that they should bring back Minstrel Shows?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 14:50:02 GMT
What thread are you even reading that you've decided someone's actually come to that conclusion? 'Cos it's clearly not this one!
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Post by bellboard27 on Dec 16, 2016 22:35:46 GMT
At 42nd Street tonight in Paris. Over 40 cast on stage. I know looks can be deceptive, but all looked white to me. (And maybe some alternates not on tonight are not white). But it did strike me as I watched it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2016 9:45:14 GMT
At 42nd Street tonight in Paris. Over 40 cast on stage. I know looks can be deceptive, but all looked white to me. (And maybe some alternates not on tonight are not white). But it did strike me as I watched it. Yeah I agree it can strike you when you are watching a big cast in a show and there isn't one actor who is non-white. At drama schools, you get people of all ethnicities so it's not like there aren't any performers who are non-white. However, then again, you have got shows like The Bodyguard, Memphis, Motown, Dreamgirls, Kinky Boots, Thriller that all have non-white lead characters. I just think most shows should have a diverse cast
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Post by oxfordsimon on Dec 17, 2016 11:50:54 GMT
I think it is wrong to say that 'most shows should have a diverse cast' - all shows should have the best cast possible from the available talent who are appropriate for the roles. The only restriction should be talent based not trying to fit some prescription so as to meet an externally (and subjectively) set target.
It is absolutely a good thing to represent the whole of society in our theatrical productions but that should happen organically not be imposed. There are examples of colour blind casting which has really worked to enhance the theatrical experience and those where it (to my mind) has not.
For instance, the Henry IVs at the National with Gambon and McFadyen made it work brilliantly with the Northumberland clan being portrayed by actors of colour - it was seamlessly done without appearing to have an agenda. On the flip side, there was a touring production of The Railway Children a number of years ago where both parents were white, as was the youngest child but the two other children were black. This took the audience out of the story and created more questions than the production was able to answer.
My point is that the casting has to be sensitive to the piece and not tokenistic - which is what can happen when people are trying to do the right thing but not quite achieving a polished result.
I know some will argue that we should look beyond the colour of an actor's skin and focus on the performance - but I don't believe that is always possible. A production has to take us with it - not set up barriers.
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Post by DuchessConstance on Dec 17, 2016 18:24:16 GMT
But it won't happen "organically" unless people take steps to make it happen, because the system is so comprehensively predicated on levels of endemic racism.
There are many wonderful non-white actors but they have a million barriers against them that white actors do not have.
When I cast productions, I often have to make a special effort to find non-white actors to audition. Sometimes they are not the right people for the job, but they should at least be considered, and often they are not. That should not be the case. The traditional casting system (and remember the casting system in this country is still pretty much a monopoly) is white-centric and also very ableist. The traditional way roles are cast in this country doesn't give you access to all the professional actors out there, and in my opinion often not the most talented ones. That's why you see the same few faces over and over again on TV, because it is such a monopoly.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Dec 17, 2016 19:55:35 GMT
How do you design a system to enforce properly open casting?
Who is going to monitor and police it?
Surely it can only be encouraged and celebrated when it works well - that is the way producers, directors and casting directors will be persuaded to be fully open in their attitude to casting.
I don't see any other way.
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Post by DuchessConstance on Dec 17, 2016 23:19:49 GMT
Actually Equity are involved in doing just that, and I'm personally involved in working with Spotlight about their disability access and representation. There are a lot of small changes being mooted that can and will make a big difference.
Though I don't think the current British monopoly is sustainable, and that we will ultimately move more towards an American casting system.
But fundamentally people need to be willing. If you are a director or casting director and all the actors given to you to shortlist from are white, that is a problem. If a person doesn't recognise that and speak up and actively seek out non-white actors for consideration, I think they need to examine their own entrenched racial attitudes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 17:00:23 GMT
There's a fair bit of controversy over The Print Room (in Notting Hill, I confess I didn't know of them previously) and their casting of Howard Barker's 'In the Depths' which has cast all white actors in roles written for/about China.
Director Andrew Keates has appointed himself leader of a protest on social media if anyone is cuirous about the responses.
I don't know Barker's play so can't comment on the content but it does strike me as obvious to cast actors of the correct Ethnicity for a play that describes itself as set in 'Ancient China'
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 18, 2016 17:40:20 GMT
What thread are you even reading that you've decided someone's actually come to that conclusion? 'Cos it's clearly not this one! I was being focesious, do I actually think we should go back to the minstrels shows, hell no. But then again it was great I brought it up as it is a timely reminder how much forward theatre has come. I was at Mary Stuart yesterday afternoon and 4 of the artists were represented by BAM actors, which in the 16 century would have been very very unlikely, however reading the reviews I don't recall one screaming this is 'inappropriate and unacceptable casting', not even Quentin Letts, they just saw it and enjoyed it for what it is, just like one audience member did yesterday.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 18:16:19 GMT
There's a fair bit of controversy over The Print Room (in Notting Hill, I confess I didn't know of them previously) and their casting of Howard Barker's 'In the Depths' which has cast all white actors in roles written for/about China. Well, that's just ridiculous. I can kind of understand if they cast all white actors in something like Half A Sixpence (even though that still isn't ideal). But casting white people in roles that were especially written for people of a specific ethnicity, that's just crazy.
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Post by bellboard27 on Dec 18, 2016 19:02:02 GMT
I am not sure why anyone thinks the play was written for a Chinese cast. As far as I know it started as a play on Radio 4 with Richard E Grant in 2013.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 19:18:00 GMT
bellboard27I confess no personal knowledge of the play prior to today, that said the description of the play "Set in ancient China, In the Depths of Dead Love tells of a poet exiled from the Imperial Court & the favour of the Emperor, who scrapes a living by renting his peculiar property – a bottomless well – to aspiring suicides. Among these is a married couple who exert an appalling influence over him." Suggests to me that at the very least the Emporer and the couple mentioned should be of Chinese/East Asian origin? One could argue the poet may be a visitor, but this and the rest of the descriptions I've come across suggest a play set in China, about people from that region. Many people so far have also cited that Richard E Grant's casting in it was also, shall we say questionable, which also leads me to think the writing suggests the character should be East Asian. But if anyone has read it and can correct me otherwise, consider me corrected. Update that Andrew Keates and others seem to be planning an actual protest outside the theatre, as well as the online protest. (his twitter has much more on this and is where I'm getting much of the response feedback from that I've commented about here)
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Xanderl
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Post by Xanderl on Dec 18, 2016 19:35:41 GMT
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Post by lynette on Dec 18, 2016 19:43:12 GMT
The Orphan of Zhao was a highlight of theatre going for me. I was sad about the casting controversy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 19:50:50 GMT
I'd somehow missed that when it happened and came across that same article today in relation to the Barker play controversy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 20:39:34 GMT
I think it is wrong to say that 'most shows should have a diverse cast' - all shows should have the best cast possible from the available talent who are appropriate for the roles. The only restriction should be talent based not trying to fit some prescription so as to meet an externally (and subjectively) set target. But I mean if you went to an ArtsEd school then there's going to be such a mix of white and black students so it's not like there's is a shortage of black performers - look at how many turn up for open auditions for Motown and Aladdin!!
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Post by bellboard27 on Dec 19, 2016 9:46:51 GMT
Do you think the Print Room would have the same protests if it had cast 4 black actors instead of 4 white actors?
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