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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Aug 15, 2016 19:15:23 GMT
Here's a tip. Even if you feel like breaking down, don't. Wos, I mean that's just so.....wow.... Waiter/ress, don't bother smiling because you've served people again and again and we know you don't mean it; Doctor, don't bother to look concerned when you give a patient bad news because you do it so many times. Who is anyone to tell another to stop giving their 'customers' what they seek and expect, even if they do it for everyone? On a less extreme note - of course a one line part doesn't require extended emotional investment but the performer delivering it is likely to have had the same training as the leads (and, yes, they sometimes get the big break and, when they play the lead, you find that out). 'Funny Girl' is also a story of desperation and inadequacy ameliorated by talent. That's not fluff. To play that level of self deception and outward show is likely to be draining.
I've known a number of actors and a similar number of people in other professions; there's about the same ration of idiots to really nice people and everywhere the really nice people vastly outnumber the idiots.
With Smith one of the key things about her is that she has no professional training, every night has her not having that sort of hinterland that a trained actor has.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 15, 2016 19:28:35 GMT
Here's a tip. Even if you feel like breaking down, don't. On a less extreme note - of course a one line part doesn't require extended emotional investment but the performer delivering it is likely to have had the same training as the leads (and, yes, they sometimes get the big break and, when they play the lead, you find that out). No they're not. They might have, but they equally might not have. Not everyone acting today has been trained up to the hilt. That's a ridiculous notion. I personally know two actors who get regular work here in the north west (we produce quite a lot of tv here) and both are complete chancers, in the nicest possible way. As as for your unfailing defence of Miss Smith, it's a credit to you.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Aug 15, 2016 19:52:35 GMT
On a less extreme note - of course a one line part doesn't require extended emotional investment but the performer delivering it is likely to have had the same training as the leads (and, yes, they sometimes get the big break and, when they play the lead, you find that out). No they're not. They might have, but they equally might not have. Not everyone acting today has been trained up to the hilt. That's a ridiculous notion. I personally know two actors who get regular work here in the north west (we produce quite a lot of tv here) and both are complete chancers, in the nicest possible way. As as for your unfailing defence of Miss Smith, it's a credit to you. Attempting to explain and give some background is not defending. Or are you trying to yoke in the Funny Girl thread for this purpose? Of course any performer who is being picked on and singled out for treatment, such as she has come in for from some quarters on the FG thread, should have people defending her, as I, and I think others, will do for other performers/writers/ushers etc.. It's just a human being not liking the way another human being is being treated. So why have you picked out this particular actor for persistent negative comments? What is your purpose in doing so? (also stage versus TV is an interesting discussion to be had as regards training and suitability but deserving of its own thread)
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 15, 2016 20:09:11 GMT
No they're not. They might have, but they equally might not have. Not everyone acting today has been trained up to the hilt. That's a ridiculous notion. I personally know two actors who get regular work here in the north west (we produce quite a lot of tv here) and both are complete chancers, in the nicest possible way. As as for your unfailing defence of Miss Smith, it's a credit to you. So why have you picked out this particular actor for persistent negative comments? What is your purpose in doing so? Why have you picked this particular actor out to defend? I don't see you standing up for Alexandra Burke and the critisism of her in Sister Act, just as an example.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Aug 15, 2016 20:13:34 GMT
I only read threads of shows that I've seen or likely to see.
Simple.
(Was she in Sister Act? I saw it at the Palladium but that was ages ago.)
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 15, 2016 20:23:55 GMT
I only read threads of shows that I've seen or likely to see. Simple. (Was she in Sister Act? I saw it at the Palladium but that was ages ago.) Then I suggest you dont throw around accusations of singling out because you don't, clearly by your own admission, have a global view of the board. If if you want to defend every actor who is ever criticised on here you're going to have to get around a bit more.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Aug 15, 2016 20:28:32 GMT
So you treat others in the same way? Is that a justification?
Quote - "Of course any performer who is being picked on and singled out for treatment, such as she has come in for from some quarters on the FG thread, should have people defending her".
I'm also no 'white knight', I'll just respond to what's in front of me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2016 20:29:20 GMT
The thing is, in regards to the curtain call stuff, it seems to be unique (for West End/Broadway or theatre of that calibre) to Funny Girl.
I see a lot of theatre. I've seen actors get emotional on first previews, opening nights, their last night, closing nights, understudies going on for a lead etc. I completely understand why all those scenarios may be overwhelming and emotional. However, I've never seen an actor break down in tears on an average night. Whereas, from what I'm aware, both Sheridan and Natasha do it every time they perform. It just seems like a strange coincidence and leads me to believe that they've been told to play it up. They're not tearing up, they're legitimately crying. If it was just one of them I could believe we were just dealing with an overemotional actor. Was Sheridan like this in Legally Blonde or any of her other theatre work?
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Aug 15, 2016 20:34:35 GMT
The thing is, in regards to the curtain call stuff, it seems to be unique (for West End/Broadway or theatre of that calibre) to Funny Girl. I see a lot of theatre. I've seen actors get emotional on first previews, opening nights, their last night, closing nights, understudies going on for a lead etc. I completely understand why all those scenarios may be overwhelming and emotional. However, I've never seen an actor break down in tears on an average night. Whereas, from what I'm aware, both Sheridan and Natasha do it every time they perform. It just seems like a strange coincidence and leads me to believe that they've been told to play it up. They're not tearing up, they're legitimately crying. If it was just one of them I could believe we were just dealing with an overemotional actor. Was Sheridan like this in Legally Blonde or any of her other theatre work? It seems like it's been directed like that. There are all sorts of tricks to curtain calls (there are ways of making it more likely for an audience to stand when you enter, for example). Maybe the ire should be directed at Michael Mayer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2016 20:43:44 GMT
Michael Simkins covered curtain calls in his book What's My Motivation, iirc. How you have to skip on at the end of a comedy, how you have to look like Lear REALLY took it out of you, how if you all hold hands and run downstage raising your arms as you go then the audience is pretty much guaranteed to stand, that sort of thing. The curtain call is usually just as choreographed as the rest of the show, especially for a musical, and will always take what the director considers the most appropriate form.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 15, 2016 20:46:27 GMT
So you treat others in the same way? Is that a justification? I'm also no 'white knight', I'll just respond to what's in front of me. Nope. I comment on actors positively and negatively based on my experience of them. If you'd bothered to read all of my comments about SS you would have seen that I said I think she's brilliant in FG and that she sparkles on stage in a way that is not apparent before you see her live. I just think the way she has proported herself in the media begs question, and I think she is a bit fake. Sorry! For some reason you choose to pick out my very vanilla criticisms of her, and turn me into a Sheridan hater. You've also managed to turn this thread into a SS discussion. Let's close it down by me saying that I love and respect your opinions Cardinal, this forum is richer for your input, but if you want to make this another thread about Sheridan Smith we should move it to the Perforners section.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2016 20:47:25 GMT
I think you are both right. If that is the case, then I am definitely not a fan of it. It does come across over the top on an average performance. Maybe that is just because I go to the theatre often though, perhaps people who only go once every few years like to think that they've seen a particularly special performance.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Aug 15, 2016 20:53:57 GMT
Burly, as you had referred to Smith but not Barnes doing the same thing, i had taken that as singling out.
If you have been even handed, then I apologise.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 15, 2016 20:56:54 GMT
Burly, as you had referred to Smith but not Barnes doing the same thing, i had taken that as singling out. If you have been even handed, then I apologise. I have referred to Natasha doing exactly the same thing. No need to apologise.
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Post by DuchessConstance on Aug 15, 2016 21:30:05 GMT
Oh for crying out loud, is this thread supposed to be all about Funny Girl again? Maybe next time you could make that clear to those of us who have never seen Funny Girl and whoever these actors are who are causing all this fuss? Or better yet, keep Funny Girl discussion to the Funny Girl thread? (Incidentally I've seen many actors take tearful curtain calls - most recent being Billie Piper in Yerma.)
I have zero opinion on either Smith or her replacement, both of whom I'm unfamiliar with. I simply object to the idea that stage acting is just saying words and any actor who talks about the real work and emotional investment involved (even in response to a direct question) is a pretentious special snowflake who thinks they're better than everyone else.
And as a general rule, it's annoying when someone who's never done your job thinks they know more about it than you. Surely everyone, regardless of what job they do, would agree with that?
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 15, 2016 21:42:35 GMT
And as a general rule, it's annoying when someone who's never done your job thinks they know more about it than you. Surely everyone, regardless of what job they do, would agree with that? People are passing opinions Duchess. It's a discussion forum. We're here to talk about shows and actors and you enlighten us with your own perspective on that. But If you only want to converse with people who share that opinion then you're going to be disappointed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2016 22:03:30 GMT
I do hope we're all on our way to being friends again. Or the Guardian will be using us as fodder for their next article: "When you get overinvested in an argument, you really get overinvested." ;-)
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Post by DuchessConstance on Aug 15, 2016 22:06:36 GMT
There's a big difference between sharing opinions, and making mocking pronouncements that you know what someone's job involves better than they do (but if they dare to give an opinion as to what their own job is like, they're being stuck up and banging on about how special they are).
I don't think it's too much to expect that people who choose to devote their time to running theatre websites might have a modicum of appreciation or at least not open disdain for theatre actors.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Aug 15, 2016 22:28:38 GMT
There's a big difference between sharing opinions, and making mocking pronouncements that you know what someone's job involves better than they do (but if they dare to give an opinion as to what their own job is like, they're being stuck up and banging on about how special they are). I don't think it's too much to expect that people who choose to devote their time to running theatre websites might have a modicum of appreciation or at least not open disdain for theatre actors.I noticed you calling someone "ridiculous" earlier. Has anyone insulted you directly in this thread? There are seven people running this forum, you've encountered two who happen not to agree with you. Perspective please.
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Post by The Matthew on Aug 16, 2016 4:45:12 GMT
There's a big difference between sharing opinions, and making mocking pronouncements that you know what someone's job involves better than they do (but if they dare to give an opinion as to what their own job is like, they're being stuck up and banging on about how special they are). I don't think it's too much to expect that people who choose to devote their time to running theatre websites might have a modicum of appreciation or at least not open disdain for theatre actors. You're inventing things that you claim people have said and then arguing against those instead of actually addressing what people are saying. I do have disdain for some actors. Specifically, those actors who look down on people who aren't actors themselves. When I used the term "muggles" earlier I chose that word because I know of an actress who uses the term herself when referring to the times she has to be with the ordinary people. Are you saying I'm not allowed to be offended by that attitude? On the other hand I've met many performers who are completely down to earth once they're off the job, and I've as much respect for them as for anyone else. My disdain is solely for people who think they're allowed to tell me what my opinion of them must be. I come from a theatrical family. My mother was an actress. Her family owned a chain of theatres and a film studio. My only personal experience of acting taught me that it's not for me, but what I've heard from actors as ordinary people is that the job is just a job. Then I hear an actor in an interview going on about how incredibly demanding and emotionally draining it is. Who am I supposed to believe? People I know who have nothing to gain by exaggeration, or complete strangers who are trying to talk themselves up in a publicity event? That's the point I'm trying to get across here, and it's the point you keep trying to shuffle around. I'm not saying that I rank my opinion above that of an actor in an interview. I'm saying I rank the opinions of people I know and trust above that of a stranger in an interview. Am I not allowed to do that?
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Post by DuchessConstance on Aug 16, 2016 11:10:15 GMT
But why on earth would you be "offended" at someone saying (in response to a direct question) that they find their job challenging? How on earth does "I find my job challenging" = "I'm better than anyone who doesn't do my job." Why are you actively seeking out interviews with people you hate? And why would you be determined someone is lying, just because you met someone doing a job in the same broad area who had a different opinion?
Obviously some acting is more challenging than others. Obviously different actors have different approaches and opinions, because of that whole "unique human being and not Borg" thing.
My mum is a nurse. She's constantly talking about how challenging and draining it is. According to you that means she thinks she's better than everyone else, right? Another friend of mine is also a nurse, and she finds the job a breeze. That must mean my mum's a liar, since all nursing jobs are identical and all nurses have a hive mind?
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Post by The Matthew on Aug 16, 2016 12:40:43 GMT
But why on earth would you be "offended" at someone saying (in response to a direct question) that they find their job challenging? How on earth does "I find my job challenging" = "I'm better than anyone who doesn't do my job." Why are you actively seeking out interviews with people you hate? And why would you be determined someone is lying, just because you met someone doing a job in the same broad area who had a different opinion? I haven't actually said any of that, have I? Let's go through your claims one by one:— But why on earth would you be "offended" at someone saying (in response to a direct question) that they find their job challenging?I'm not. I'm offended by the sort of attitude that describes people who don't do that job as "muggles". How on earth does "I find my job challenging" = "I'm better than anyone who doesn't do my job."It doesn't. I never said it did. What I did say is that there are some people who do act as though their job make them better than others. That's not the same thing at all. Why are you actively seeking out interviews with people you hate?Where did I say I hate actors? In any case, I didn't seek out the interview; it was posted here. And I read it because it was important to know what it was about before discussing it. I may not agree with what the interviewees have to say but that doesn't mean I shouldn't listen to them say it. And why would you be determined someone is lying, just because you met someone doing a job in the same broad area who had a different opinion?I've heard different opinions from different people. Friends and family have told me that it's no big deal. Complete strangers in this interview — and not in every interview, mind — say that they find the emotions overwhelming. Quite apart from the fact that I'm more inclined to trust people I know than people I've never met, the fact is that the people I know have no incentive to be anything other than completely straight with me while the people in the interview have an incentive to promote themselves because in their line of work image is important. Are you really suggesting that I should trust strangers over people I know? Do you not trust the opinions of people you know and respect over people you've never met? Again, you're attacking things that nobody has actually said. A few years ago I had to undergo a set of rather invasive tests in hospital. One doctor and nurse were really friendly and put me at ease. Another doctor expected that everyone around him would shut up and listen whenever he started speaking, and his pair of nurses were behaving more like servants than colleagues. I'm sure all of them found their work demanding, but only one of them acted all precious about it. There's nothing wrong with being good at your job, and there's nothing wrong with being proud of being good at your job. Being arrogant about it is another matter, and some actors are very arrogant indeed.
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Post by DuchessConstance on Aug 16, 2016 12:57:35 GMT
You seem to be the one responding to things that have not been said, and ignoring what has been said. Most of the actors I know who are the most emotional in their acting technique are incredibly down to earth off-stage. I find the idea that actors have to find their jobs a breeze or they're automatically pretentious and superior very odd. Ditto the idea there is one single "right" opinion that covers all acting and all actors! There is zero correlation between an actor's process, and their personality. Some of the rudest and most stuck up "I'm better than everyone else" actors completely share Matthew's "it's just saying lines" attitude. Some of the nicest, most humble and down to earth actors share the opinion given in the article. Kate Fleetwood, the subject of this thread, is the most down to earth person and un-superior you'll ever meet. As for the person who used the word "muggles" that has zero to do with this thread. You met one rude person who happened to be an actor. There are rude people in every job and walk of life. Where in the article does Kate or any of the others call anyone muggles? Where do they express any rudeness or arrogance or superiority? You don't think it's rude that the fact Kate gave one single interview saying she personally finds it emotionally challenging having to break down and cry and murder kids and enact her own death every night, has led to four pages of ranting about how rude, pretentious, arrogant, stuck-up, superior, dishonest, self-aggrandizing, etc. etc. etc. she (and anyone other actor who occasionally finds their job challenging) is? Do you not trust the opinions of people you know and respect over people you've never met? I trust that everyone is allowed their own opinion about their own life! In this case the friends of mine who have been roundly attacked simply for saying "I personally found playing Medea emotionally challenging"!
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Aug 16, 2016 14:34:33 GMT
Do you not trust the opinions of people you know and respect over people you've never met? I trust experts in their field the most, no matter if I know them or not. Unfortunately the tenor of the times is to attack them - climate scientists, economists etc. Apparently people with no facts or experience but a feeling that they are right are more likely to be listened to nowadays......
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Post by DuchessConstance on Aug 16, 2016 14:47:34 GMT
Why can we all not just accept that different people have different opinions? And that people have different personalities and experiences that influence those opinions? Friends' opinions are just their personal opinions and not automatically the "right" answer. Because there is no "right" answer. I've found things hard that my friends found easy. I've found things easy that my friends found hard. Because we're different people! Doesn't mean one of us must be lying or pretending our jobs are harder than they are to boast and self-aggrandize. Just means some people find certain things easier than others, and some jobs are more challenging than others.
Nowhere in the original article or the original thread has there been any mention of actors being rude or arrogant or thinking they're better than anyone else. Obviously rudeness and arrogance is unacceptable. What's that got to do with Kate saying "I found playing Medea emotionally challenging"?
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Post by The Matthew on Aug 16, 2016 15:03:25 GMT
You seem to be the one responding to things that have not been said, and ignoring what has been said. And you say this in response to a post in which I quoted and responded to each of your comments individually, while you make a point of not quoting people and then attacking them over things they never said. I think we're pretty much done here. So do I, which is why I didn't make that claim. (At last, a quote, albeit stripped of context.) And my friends and family are allowed their own opinions about their own lives. I'm not saying they speak for everyone, obviously, but in the absence of personal experience I have to rely on sources I know and trust over complete strangers. Do you not see the irony that in a thread in which you're trying to say that actors don't think highly of themselves you're telling me that you know better than I do whether I can trust the people I know?
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Post by DuchessConstance on Aug 16, 2016 15:27:27 GMT
That's the exact opposite of what I said! You're the one claiming acting is easy peasy simply because you know people who opine that it is, and therefore any actor who mentions finding a role challenging is a liar, arrogant, pretentious, self-aggrandizing, making themself out to be better than everyone else etc. etc. you're telling me that you know better than I do whether I can trust the people I know? You can trust the people you know to state opinions about themselves. But you aren't doing that. You're using their opinions about themselves to attack and debunk my friend's opinion about her own life. Why can't you simply accept that people have different feelings and perspectives about themselves? Why does there have to be a single 'right' opinion? Plenty of "it's emotional challenging" actors are very humble and down to earth and plenty of "it's just saying lines" actors are obnoxious and rude and think they're better than everyone else.
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Post by The Matthew on Aug 16, 2016 16:21:21 GMT
That's the exact opposite of what I said! You're the one claiming acting is easy peasy simply because you know people who opine that it is, and therefore any actor who mentions finding a role challenging is a liar, arrogant, pretentious, self-aggrandizing, making themself out to be better than everyone else etc. etc. Where did I say that? Where did I say all acting is easy peasy? Where did I say that any actor who finds a role challenging is a liar or arrogant or any of the other things you've said? This thread's only four pages long. If I really said that then it shouldn't take you more than a minute or two to find the exact quote. You're also disparaging my family. I didn't say they said acting was easy peasy. I said they said they didn't find it emotionally overwhelming. If acting was easy peasy then there'd be no such things as bad actors, and from my own seconds-long acting experience at school I know for a fact that's not true. The closest I got to criticism of your friend is that I said that I thought they were probably overstating the strength of the emotional impact. I don't see that as an unreasonable suspicion, given that the performers I've known have all told me a very different story. Obviously I only have a subset of all actors as my sample and I'm not claiming they speak for all actors, and I'm not claiming that my suspicion represents the absolute truth, but I can only base my opinions on what I've been told by the actors I know. Your experience is obviously different, but that doesn't give you the right to accuse me of all sort of things that I haven't actually done.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2016 16:27:45 GMT
I know I'm not an admin, so this could be considered overstepping a line, and I apologise in advance if that is the case, but shall we all agree to take a break from this thread? Maybe?
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Post by londonmzfitz on Aug 16, 2016 16:32:02 GMT
Wait! I just got here!
*dons tin hat, settles in with cuppa tea*
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