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Post by toomasj on Nov 10, 2023 11:38:11 GMT
I do wonder whether these demonstrations really help. But, on the other hand, I do question the concept of criminality, and I don’t think that unlawful acts are necessarily wrong. In Nazi Germany, helping Jews was considered criminal. Seeking abortion in many places in America is criminal, as was homosexuality in the UK until very recently. Was Javert wrong for stealing a loaf of bread? At the end of the day, we should be guided by moral principles, rather than by laws. Laws are created by fallible humans, many of whom with shady interests. Think of all the lawmakers who pander to far-right people for money and power. Also consider the many things that are not illegal but cause much harm to people. The fact is that much good has come to humanity by breaking laws. Important revolutions and changes started that way. I’m not saying that we should all break them or that the ends justify the means. What I’m saying is that laws are not absolutes, and that things should be considered within context. I think it is valid to oppose the JSO for their tactics, believing that they generate more harm than good, especially to the important cause they try to defend, but I don’t think it is right and fair to crush them for what is essentially some very minor infringements of current legislation. Come to think of it, why did Marius open that grotty inn anyway?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2023 11:55:43 GMT
I do wonder whether these demonstrations really help. But, on the other hand, I do question the concept of criminality, and I don’t think that unlawful acts are necessarily wrong. In Nazi Germany, helping Jews was considered criminal. Seeking abortion in many places in America is criminal, as was homosexuality in the UK until very recently. Was Javert wrong for stealing a loaf of bread? At the end of the day, we should be guided by moral principles, rather than by laws. Laws are created by fallible humans, many of whom with shady interests. Think of all the lawmakers who pander to far-right people for money and power. Also consider the many things that are not illegal but cause much harm to people. The fact is that much good has come to humanity by breaking laws. Important revolutions and changes started that way. I’m not saying that we should all break them or that the ends justify the means. What I’m saying is that laws are not absolutes, and that things should be considered within context. I think it is valid to oppose the JSO for their tactics, believing that they generate more harm than good, especially to the important cause they try to defend, but I don’t think it is right and fair to crush them for what is essentially some very minor infringements of current legislation. I think some of your comparisons are a bit of a stretch. You can't really compare protecting Jews or Abortion to the acts of JSO. Yes the morals should be considered when it comes to legislation and law, and I have no issues with a slow march, it's inconvenient and helps highlight a point. However, when they start throwing paint all over university buildings in Manchester - that's criminal damage, when they smash glass frame of a painting in a gallery - that's criminal damage, throwing paint over a dinosaur in a museum - again criminal damage, the list goes on to include throwing paint over digital screens at a game expo and landmarks. A persons morals should not be an excuse to get away with causing criminal damage. They are unhappy with government policy, but why should Manchester University and its students suffer? Why should a museum and its guests suffer? why should people at a gaming expo suffer? This is why I don't have any sympathy for any of JSO and more than happy that the book is thrown at them, a minor inconvenience can be forgiven, but criminal damage should not, as that hits the general public in the pocket and they shouldn't be hurt because of someones values and beliefs. Also, I think Javert will not be happy that you are accusing him of stealing bread!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2023 12:58:58 GMT
Protesting by marching or taking the knee like the BLM movement did is different to causing criminal damage. I'll exclude the topling of statues as that is a different matter.
You break the law by dropping litter, even the old recording the charts off the radio but there are different levels of law breaking and how they are interpreted by just the MPs is always very merky. They have to resign as a minister but can stay on as an MP always seems dodgy to me.
Sitting in the road actually probably ****** off more people than chaining themselves to the wheel of a 747!
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 10, 2023 13:15:29 GMT
Criminal damage has been illegal for a very, very long time in this and every other legal jurisdiction that I can think of. It isn't a capricious new law. It is a long established part of civic society.
And the idea that the slow walking has no consequences other than inconvenience is demonstrably untrue. We saw that the other day when these criminals held up an ambulance en route to an emergency.
Did they break their slow walk to allow it to pass? No.
That shows them for who they are.
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Post by Mr Crummles on Nov 10, 2023 13:36:33 GMT
I do wonder whether these demonstrations really help. But, on the other hand, I do question the concept of criminality, and I don’t think that unlawful acts are necessarily wrong. In Nazi Germany, helping Jews was considered criminal. Seeking abortion in many places in America is criminal, as was homosexuality in the UK until very recently. Was Javert wrong for stealing a loaf of bread? At the end of the day, we should be guided by moral principles, rather than by laws. Laws are created by fallible humans, many of whom with shady interests. Think of all the lawmakers who pander to far-right people for money and power. Also consider the many things that are not illegal but cause much harm to people. The fact is that much good has come to humanity by breaking laws. Important revolutions and changes started that way. I’m not saying that we should all break them or that the ends justify the means. What I’m saying is that laws are not absolutes, and that things should be considered within context. I think it is valid to oppose the JSO for their tactics, believing that they generate more harm than good, especially to the important cause they try to defend, but I don’t think it is right and fair to crush them for what is essentially some very minor infringements of current legislation. I think some of your comparisons are a bit of a stretch. You can't really compare protecting Jews or Abortion to the acts of JSO. Yes the morals should be considered when it comes to legislation and law, and I have no issues with a slow march, it's inconvenient and helps highlight a point. However, when they start throwing paint all over university buildings in Manchester - that's criminal damage, when they smash glass frame of a painting in a gallery - that's criminal damage, throwing paint over a dinosaur in a museum - again criminal damage, the list goes on to include throwing paint over digital screens at a game expo and landmarks. A persons morals should not be an excuse to get away with causing criminal damage. They are unhappy with government policy, but why should Manchester University and its students suffer? Why should a museum and its guests suffer? why should people at a gaming expo suffer? This is why I don't have any sympathy for any of JSO and more than happy that the book is thrown at them, a minor inconvenience can be forgiven, but criminal damage should not, as that hits the general public in the pocket and they shouldn't be hurt because of someones values and beliefs. Also, I think Javert will not be happy that you are accusing him of stealing bread!
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Post by Mr Crummles on Nov 10, 2023 13:43:26 GMT
Apologies to Javert! Valjean, it's you I'm looking at.
I understand your point, Jon. I was myself a bit taken aback when they threw soup at a painting. What I was trying to say, however, is that the illegality of an act is not the ultimate factor to determine whether this act is good or bad...
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Post by Nelly on Apr 19, 2024 13:33:27 GMT
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Post by anthony40 on Apr 19, 2024 14:25:05 GMT
Just a little aside- I can't help thinking the photograph in that article looks like something straight from The Breakfast Club!
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Post by BVM on Apr 20, 2024 8:48:33 GMT
The right decision that they were found guilty no doubt
(But I still think there is something in starting a protest at the "will you join in our crusade" moment in Les Mis).
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Post by manchestertheatrefan on Apr 20, 2024 10:32:53 GMT
100% the right verdict, let's hope they are sufficiently sentenced.
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Post by aspieandy on Apr 20, 2024 11:42:04 GMT
The allusion/delusion is clear enough: Can You Hear the People Sing, putting up barricades, etc. Disconnection with their cause insomuch as 95% of the audience would have come by public transport and paid decent money to get there, as they would have. Pretty much identical to the disruption of Waterloo Bridge for months - disrupting mostly buses. So excellent at promo in media, yet zero effect in any wider sense. No change in discourse. It's almost as if the strategies are alienating.
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Post by mkb on Apr 24, 2024 16:32:48 GMT
I am disappointed to read that the theatre did not apparently seek damages for their costs as it was covered by insurance. That just increases insurance premiums for the industry which ultimately is passed on to us in higher ticket prices.
I can't understand why the party insured isn't required to minimise their insurance claim by seeking to recover costs from those protestors found guilty, nor why the insurance company itself is not doing so.
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Post by TallPaul on Apr 24, 2024 17:00:46 GMT
Thanks to the protestors who interrupted play last year, everyone attending the World Snooker Championship is now frisked on entry. This is done outdoors, in all weathers, which so far this year has been very cold and sometimes wet.
Having entered not guilty pleas, the protestors themselves are not due to stand trial until next month. Goodness knows what their defence is going to be? It's not as though there weren't any witnesses.
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Post by scarletmood on Apr 24, 2024 19:03:22 GMT
Thanks to the protestors who interrupted play last year, everyone attending the World Snooker Championship is now frisked on entry. This is done outdoors, in all weathers, which so far this year has been very cold and sometimes wet. Having entered not guilty pleas, the protestors themselves are not due to stand trial until next month. Goodness knows what their defence is going to be? It's not as though there weren't any witnesses. People caught holding a murder weapon have pleaded not guilty so I guess these JSO mob probably think they won't get a harsher sentence for not having pleaded guilty. I just think a short sharp shock of a spell inside would deter some of these goons.
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Post by Latecomer on Apr 26, 2024 18:58:06 GMT
Just posting support for the protesters here. They are trying to save the world. Whatever you think, they aren’t doing this for personal gain and I’m constantly amazed at how little empathy people have for these protests. It’s hard to protest effectively when it affects no-one as it gets NO publicity and people do feel quite powerless these days. I know, I know, it’s annoying and inconvenient and not necessarily effective. They probably said the same about the suffragettes (who smashed windows and broke laws in their campaign) Ok, I’ll go now.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 26, 2024 19:07:58 GMT
This form of protest is targeted at the wrong people.
It costs people enjoying a treat at the theatre and ruins what should be a memorable event.
It does not get positive publicity for the environmental cause. It creates anger towards the protests and that sets back positive engagement on the issues they claim to represent.
I was reading earlier about the people who target SUVs by letting down tyres. They don't care that some people need larger vehicles because of caring/transport issues. I really don't like the increase in use of larger vehicles in urban settings but I do know that for some people there isn't a viable alternative.
Again this sort of unfair targeting does harm to public discourse on environmental matters.
Disrupting theatre, damaging works of art and such stunts do not help the green agenda.
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Post by manchestertheatrefan on Apr 26, 2024 19:13:14 GMT
Just posting support for the protesters here. They are trying to save the world. Whatever you think, they aren’t doing this for personal gain and I’m constantly amazed at how little empathy people have for these protests. It’s hard to protest effectively when it affects no-one as it gets NO publicity and people do feel quite powerless these days. I know, I know, it’s annoying and inconvenient and not necessarily effective. They probably said the same about the suffragettes (who smashed windows and broke laws in their campaign) Ok, I’ll go now. It's hard to have empathy for someone who has ruined someone's night out. Possibly one that they have saved up a lot of money for, especially if they have paid extortionate train fair to London or a night in a hotel. I don't think the people at the theatre would say that the protestors are annoying or inconvenient. I have no issues with protests, but in all the time they have been going, they don't seem to have moved their cause forward. Every time I have seen them interviewed, they have come across as arrogant and pretty much have the stance that if you don't agree with them you are a problem and killing the world, which makes me loose any respect. Maybe target government who make policies instead of p**sing off theatre goers, formula one / rugby / football / snooker fans, damaging art - as that doesn't get sympathy for the cause, just alienates the people they want to get onside, and more important has little to no impact to Rishi and his government.
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Post by elfman1 on Apr 26, 2024 19:43:55 GMT
Just posting support for the protesters here. They are trying to save the world. Whatever you think, they aren’t doing this for personal gain and I’m constantly amazed at how little empathy people have for these protests. It’s hard to protest effectively when it affects no-one as it gets NO publicity and people do feel quite powerless these days. I know, I know, it’s annoying and inconvenient and not necessarily effective. They probably said the same about the suffragettes (who smashed windows and broke laws in their campaign) Ok, I’ll go now. It's hard to have empathy for someone who has ruined someone's night out. Possibly one that they have saved up a lot of money for, especially if they have paid extortionate train fair to London or a night in a hotel. I don't think the people at the theatre would say that the protestors are annoying or inconvenient. I have no issues with protests, but in all the time they have been going, they don't seem to have moved their cause forward. Every time I have seen them interviewed, they have come across as arrogant and pretty much have the stance that if you don't agree with them you are a problem and killing the world, which makes me loose any respect. Maybe target government who make policies instead of p**sing off theatre goers, formula one / rugby / football / snooker fans, damaging art - as that doesn't get sympathy for the cause, just alienates the people they want to get onside, and more important has little to no impact to Rishi and his government. This protest was also on the same day as a football match between Newcastle and Paris Saint germain two teams owned by oil rich nation states. Surely a more logical target.
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Post by nash16 on Apr 26, 2024 21:09:54 GMT
Just posting support for the protesters here. They are trying to save the world. Whatever you think, they aren’t doing this for personal gain and I’m constantly amazed at how little empathy people have for these protests. It’s hard to protest effectively when it affects no-one as it gets NO publicity and people do feel quite powerless these days. I know, I know, it’s annoying and inconvenient and not necessarily effective. They probably said the same about the suffragettes (who smashed windows and broke laws in their campaign) Ok, I’ll go now. Absolutely with you Latecomer. When this thread started I was slightly shocked, actually very shocked, with how right wing/Daily Fail the Theatreboard suddenly seemed to lean via this thread. The (inate? & depressing) selfishness of humanity sadly glows in moments like this. Reminds me of the pasta/loo roll grabs at the start of the pandemic.
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Post by mkb on Apr 26, 2024 21:43:19 GMT
Just posting support for the protesters here. They are trying to save the world. Whatever you think, they aren’t doing this for personal gain and I’m constantly amazed at how little empathy people have for these protests. It’s hard to protest effectively when it affects no-one as it gets NO publicity and people do feel quite powerless these days. I know, I know, it’s annoying and inconvenient and not necessarily effective. They probably said the same about the suffragettes (who smashed windows and broke laws in their campaign) Ok, I’ll go now. Absolutely with you Latecomer. When this thread started I was slightly shocked, actually very shocked, with how right wing/Daily Fail the Theatreboard suddenly seemed to lean via this thread. The (inate? & depressing) selfishness of humanity sadly glows in moments like this. Reminds me of the pasta/loo roll grabs at the start of the pandemic. Frankly, they are stupid and offensive conclusions.
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Post by lynette on Apr 26, 2024 21:49:35 GMT
Not sure to what exactly you are referring mkb but please stay civil. Thank you.
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Post by shownut on Apr 26, 2024 22:17:29 GMT
I wish these people would take their politics elsewhere.
We are here to discuss theatre.
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Post by mkb on Apr 26, 2024 23:09:43 GMT
Not sure to what exactly you are referring mkb but please stay civil. Thank you. So if I am following correctly, some of us on here are being told, following no rational logic nor reasoning, that we are right-wing, Daily Mail readers and selfish, and compared to people who only look after themselves in a pandemic, yet you imply I am the one not being civil. Really?
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Post by mkb on Apr 26, 2024 23:11:54 GMT
I wish these people would take their politics elsewhere. We are here to discuss theatre. Several hundred theatregoers had their evening ruined, so I'd say the discussion is relevant.
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Post by scarletmood on Apr 27, 2024 0:57:19 GMT
Yes I vote Tory so I'm "right wing" more people have voted "right wing" than "left wing" historically in the UK. I hate the broad terms as central Tory or centralist Labour are likely closer together than they are with the extremes in their own party.
There was a pandemic, wars, terrorists, cost of living, equality far more currently important things than random protests at unrelated targets by the JSO mob.
There is so much hypocrisy as regards green issues how many people who preach on this topic take private flights. The likes of Greta Thunberg whilst I'm no fan of hers to put it mildly she at least sailed to speak at a big conference a few years back so I respected her for that.
I do wonder how many of the JSO collective were "professional protesters" and are probably on another cause now which regularly march in major cities.
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Post by ceebee on Apr 27, 2024 9:09:57 GMT
Just posting support for the protesters here. They are trying to save the world. Whatever you think, they aren’t doing this for personal gain and I’m constantly amazed at how little empathy people have for these protests. It’s hard to protest effectively when it affects no-one as it gets NO publicity and people do feel quite powerless these days. I know, I know, it’s annoying and inconvenient and not necessarily effective. They probably said the same about the suffragettes (who smashed windows and broke laws in their campaign) Ok, I’ll go now. Absolutely with you Latecomer. When this thread started I was slightly shocked, actually very shocked, with how right wing/Daily Fail the Theatreboard suddenly seemed to lean via this thread. The (inate? & depressing) selfishness of humanity sadly glows in moments like this. Reminds me of the pasta/loo roll grabs at the start of the pandemic. It's these kind of generalisations that make me chuckle. So, basically, anybody who disagrees with Just Stop Oil's modus operandi rather than their underlying beliefs is right wing... That's an odd conclusion to reach. But then I voted green at the last local elections despite driving a gas guzzling 4x4 and regularly burning tree and grass clippings in my garden. It is a west facing garden though, so could technically be described as left wing.
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Post by manchestertheatrefan on Apr 27, 2024 9:46:35 GMT
Just posting support for the protesters here. They are trying to save the world. Whatever you think, they aren’t doing this for personal gain and I’m constantly amazed at how little empathy people have for these protests. It’s hard to protest effectively when it affects no-one as it gets NO publicity and people do feel quite powerless these days. I know, I know, it’s annoying and inconvenient and not necessarily effective. They probably said the same about the suffragettes (who smashed windows and broke laws in their campaign) Ok, I’ll go now. Absolutely with you Latecomer. When this thread started I was slightly shocked, actually very shocked, with how right wing/Daily Fail the Theatreboard suddenly seemed to lean via this thread. The (inate? & depressing) selfishness of humanity sadly glows in moments like this. Reminds me of the pasta/loo roll grabs at the start of the pandemic. I suppose I could be classed as a Daily Mail reader since I read it once, didn't enjoy and have never tried reading anything they produce again, however, I can never be accused of being right wing I agree with what JSO allegedly wants to achieve, I just cannot agree with their actions or the arrogance of their approach, that doesn't make me right wing, it means I can't stand the selfish antics of a group of idiots creating trouble and causing damage and harm claiming it for the being for the greater good.
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Post by aspieandy on Apr 27, 2024 10:26:23 GMT
I am mostly offended by how useless they have been. Their choices have been hopeless at garnering wider support, or in advancing discourse. It isn't enough 'to bring attention'. We are all aware.
They have absolutely alienated the working class in London by targeting the cheapest ways to get to work (especially the buses which are anyway almost entirely electric now). And as for standing on the roof of DLR and other trains at East London stations like Stratford and Custom House .. it's clueless. If they were determined to be a tiny faction intent on alienating the wider public from the issue, they could not have been more successful. At some point, you almost expect the big reveal of secret funding from Saudi or somewhere.
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Post by shownut on Apr 27, 2024 13:58:37 GMT
I wish these people would take their politics elsewhere. We are here to discuss theatre. Several hundred theatregoers had their evening ruined, so I'd say the discussion is relevant. That was where the thread started but is not what is now being discussed. It had descended into a back and forth of left vs right and so on and so on.....
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Post by ceebee on Apr 27, 2024 14:44:09 GMT
I didn't see a back and forth of left vs right. I just saw a generalisation. That said, politics clearly do come in to the debate when discussing Just Stop Oil (though they have gone quiet recently - perhaps it's the cold months and they don't come out, or perhaps they've realised those of us who drive will probably stick to combustion engines for a couple of decades more yet).
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