585 posts
|
Post by christya on Mar 8, 2023 16:30:34 GMT
Rotten thing to do to get rid of the BBC Singers just before the Proms. I suspect it won't be seen that way by everyone - some people I know who are in a local (very high profile) choir have been posting on Facebook about how maybe their choir will get a look in. And I suspect that's exactly what will happen - or at least, choirs of their type and quality.
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 8, 2023 16:39:38 GMT
Given how the Proms programme is planned a long time in advance, this cut must have been on the cards for ages.
|
|
594 posts
|
Post by og on Mar 9, 2023 8:48:08 GMT
Given how the Proms programme is planned a long time in advance, this cut must have been on the cards for ages. Not necessarily. Proms can reschedule and adapt their programme with months to spare. How many events do you think were programmed with a specific dependency on the BBC Singers? Have you not noticed the timing of this? Just at the cusp of the change in financial year? With the rising expense of running a corporation the size of the BBC, heating huge buildings, cost of living crisis affecting their thousands of staff (would you suggest no one employed by the staff under contract or freelance be worth an increase in wage?), along side the fact that the BBCs income has been throttled for 2 years. Everything costs more but their income is fixed. A lot of things have to give. And i am telling you with a degree of inside information, these a lot of these changes have been very last minute. As much as you have a vendetta agains Lineker, the role he plays in maintaining and furthering the BBCs reach in the Sport watching demographic, keeping critical numbers of people interacting and engaged is far beyond what I believe you’d ever give him credit. That and the fact that there are very, very few people in the world with the experience and knowledge he has capable of doing the job he does. Have you seen any other footballer present a live TV show, hold it down when it goes wrong and keep all the guests talking off script without causing a veritable car crash? I’d hedge the answer to be no. If you want to go with cold hard facts. Look at the amount of people watching MOTD and MOTD2 each week, over the course of the year, and compare that to the amount of people watching/listening to programming involving BBC Singers. There would be a ridiculously big difference in numbers. Sport audiences far outweigh classic music audiences. Even if you don’t like it, I suggest you try accept it. Rather than go on a multipost rambling of reasons I think Cameron Macintosh earns too much much from theatre, there would be much more value in discussing the work of smaller producers. Perhaps try demonstrate the worth of the choir and the reasons they should stay, rather than berate another department.
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 9, 2023 9:27:31 GMT
Sport, and football in particular, is a multi billion pound industry. The fact that MOTD has bigger audience numbers than classical music is actually a good reason to keep protecting minority interests like choral singing via the BBC.
Those who have come for me because I raised Lineker as an overpaid symbol are missing the point. This is not about him per se. It is about a culture in the BBC that is out of kilter with the real world.
We don't need to carry on paying high profile individuals more and more money for the BBC to survive. Indeed, it would be a far more representative organisation if it did away such high payments and channelled those resources into nurturing fresh faces and developing talent.
Multimillionaires being paid seven figure sums to present on TV is quite simply wrong when budgets are under pressure.
Indeed most of those on six figure salaries should be looked at again.
The culture has to change.
|
|
|
Post by londonpostie on Mar 9, 2023 12:09:16 GMT
BBC got them in a deep hole on negotiated contracts with top-end talent. Those days are largely over (a number took pay cuts, I believe. Often symbolic but not always). Lineker is a legacy issue and, as far as I recall, the most significant of them.
|
|
6,382 posts
|
Post by Jon on Mar 9, 2023 12:23:33 GMT
I suspect if some people had their way, we would have no sport or programmes that actually rated well like Strictly, Happy Valley, Death in Paradise etc on the BBC which would be hugely disastrous.
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 9, 2023 12:56:23 GMT
I have seen no one calling for the removal of sport or drama or Strictly from the BBC
There are many, many people bemoaning the loss of the BBC Singers. A group that has been in existence for very close to one hundred years. A group that has commissioned many new compositions, given the premiere performances of many more, done a huge amount of educational work, provided a launch pad for international careers and much more.
That is why nearly 40000 people have signed the petition calling on the BBC to overturn the decision.
I make no apology for calling out the BBC and the excessive payments they make to certain individuals. It is a symptom of the culture that management at the BBC has allowed and encouraged.
The BBC Singers should be protected as a unique and valuable institution.
|
|
|
Post by FairyGodmother on Mar 9, 2023 17:37:39 GMT
I watch and listen to all sorts of things.
And no, I think commercially successful things are excellent — as well as being enjoyed here, they can be sold and profits from that used in other arms of the BBC, like (for example) the orchestras who can't apply for grants. They could do more concerts I suppose, but then they're competing with other orchestras, which probably isn't the best way of supporting classical music around the country.
It's also the whole point of having a public service broadcaster — the license fee should enable them to produce content that commercial broadcasters don't want to, or can't make money on.
|
|
594 posts
|
Post by og on Mar 9, 2023 17:42:19 GMT
Sport, and football in particular, is a multi billion pound industry. The fact that MOTD has bigger audience numbers than classical music is actually a good reason to keep protecting minority interests like choral singing via the BBC. Those who have come for me because I raised Lineker as an overpaid symbol are missing the point. This is not about him per se. It is about a culture in the BBC that is out of kilter with the real world. We don't need to carry on paying high profile individuals more and more money for the BBC to survive. Indeed, it would be a far more representative organisation if it did away such high payments and channelled those resources into nurturing fresh faces and developing talent.Multimillionaires being paid seven figure sums to present on TV is quite simply wrong when budgets are under pressure. Indeed most of those on six figure salaries should be looked at again. The culture has to change. You mean like Jermaine Jenas or Alex Scott?
|
|
2,206 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 9, 2023 18:05:21 GMT
Sport, and football in particular, is a multi billion pound industry. The fact that MOTD has bigger audience numbers than classical music is actually a good reason to keep protecting minority interests like choral singing via the BBC. Those who have come for me because I raised Lineker as an overpaid symbol are missing the point. This is not about him per se. It is about a culture in the BBC that is out of kilter with the real world. We don't need to carry on paying high profile individuals more and more money for the BBC to survive. Indeed, it would be a far more representative organisation if it did away such high payments and channelled those resources into nurturing fresh faces and developing talent.Multimillionaires being paid seven figure sums to present on TV is quite simply wrong when budgets are under pressure. Indeed most of those on six figure salaries should be looked at again. The culture has to change. You mean like Jermaine Jenas or Alex Scott? Do you know how much Jenas earns without presenting the BBC flagship football programme? Should get me to present
|
|
594 posts
|
Post by og on Mar 9, 2023 19:24:19 GMT
You mean like Jermaine Jenas or Alex Scott? Do you know how much Jenas earns without presenting the BBC flagship football programme? Should get me to present He’s in demand so can justifiably charge. Because he’s had the opportunities to develop and prove an ability in his role, hence being getting the chance to move through the ranks.
|
|
2,206 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 9, 2023 19:39:12 GMT
Do you know how much Jenas earns without presenting the BBC flagship football programme? Should get me to present He’s in demand so can justifiably charge. Because he’s had the opportunities to develop and prove an ability in his role, hence being getting the chance to move through the ranks. So stick with Gary then?
|
|
|
Post by FairyGodmother on Mar 10, 2023 11:20:22 GMT
More than 75,000 people have signed the petition now. Which I know isn't huge, but it shows that people do care about the BBC Singers.
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 10, 2023 11:23:49 GMT
That has nearly doubled in under 24 hours. Impressive momentum
My abiding memory of the BBC Singers in performance is when they sang Eric Whitacre's Sleep at the First night of the 2020 Proms
There are very few vocal ensembles who could have stepped up to the plate with such professionalism and musicality under almost impossible circumstances for music making
That alone shows how valuable they are.
|
|
594 posts
|
Post by og on Mar 10, 2023 11:48:11 GMT
He’s in demand so can justifiably charge. Because he’s had the opportunities to develop and prove an ability in his role, hence being getting the chance to move through the ranks. So stick with Gary then? JJ is busy enough with The One Show and the MOTD spin-off, MOTDx.
|
|
6,382 posts
|
Post by Jon on Mar 10, 2023 12:05:24 GMT
It's naive to think that a petition will save the BBC Singers or that they'll sack Gary Lineker and use his salary to pay to retain them.
|
|
|
Post by FairyGodmother on Mar 10, 2023 12:20:18 GMT
Oh I doubt it will.
But people are basically lazy and won't write to the Singers to say they've appreciated them and are sad they're being cut. But they might quickly sign a petition. It's nice for the Singers to see they're appreciated and the BBC can't trumpet that it was a decision approved of by all.
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 10, 2023 12:31:30 GMT
I remember when the BBC announced they were shutting down the food section of the website. Voices of complaint were raised and they changed their mind
Now you can get free recipes all over the internet and the loss of the BBC part of that would have done little harm
Shutting down a unique choir like the BBC Singers will do harm as there is nothing that can easily replace them.
It is absolutely worth raising voices of protest
|
|
594 posts
|
Post by og on Mar 11, 2023 9:39:33 GMT
…But it is right to look at the whole of the BBC operation to see what is essential, what is desirable and what could be delivered by other broadcasters in other ways… Perhaps, that’s exactly what has happened here. On the topic of BBC reviewing its services, you’ve said yourself change is indeed inevitable. I suspect a dart wasn’t thrown at a random department of musicians to decide who would go. It will be a highly considered move, based on aspects like perceived value vs expense. I also contest your claim that the BBC Singers were entirely unique. There are many chamber choirs around the country, and it does them a disservice to imply that only BBC Singers could cater for the needs of vocal chamber music. If it’s really an organisation of value, there’s nothing to stop the choir forming independently if they believe they can exist without running at a loss.
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 11, 2023 10:37:09 GMT
Article in Guardian This article is very eloquent in explaining why the BBC Singers are a uniquely valuable institution
They are able to learn new music more quickly and efficiently than any part time ensemble. They are valued by conductors around the world. They cover a huge range of repertoire
They have an unrivalled reputation because they are funded and managed by a public media organisation that should be making exactly this sort of commitment to culture.
It is a tiny part of the BBC expenditure but it has value beyond the balance sheet. Yes budgets are tight and change is inevitable. But this is a cut that does permanent damage to the cultural life of everyone not just lovers of classical music.
There are other ways to save money in the BBC. But the reality is this sort of choir can only exist with public funding.
|
|
|
Post by FairyGodmother on Mar 11, 2023 11:27:08 GMT
I also contest your claim that the BBC Singers were entirely unique. They are the only full-time professional choral group in the country. That is unique. They don't have to balance jobs, teaching, do any of the finance stuff that comes along with freelancing. The ensemble would always be the same because they're paid to be there — it isn't like trying to put together a group for something when they have other engagements. Other choral groups could sing things just as well, maybe better. But it's the way the BBC Singers are focussed full-time on singing together that is almost impossible to match. I suspect that means they can get through more repertoire well and quickly than any other group.
|
|
|
Post by FairyGodmother on Mar 14, 2023 18:14:40 GMT
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 14, 2023 18:19:38 GMT
Horrific.
The 700 composers who sent a letter should also be commended.
The petition has topped 100k signatures.
This isn't going away
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 15, 2023 14:44:53 GMT
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 16, 2023 22:27:13 GMT
Musicians have written to The Times threatening a boycott of the Proms if the BBC doesn't reverse the decision to kill off the Singers.
|
|
6,382 posts
|
Post by Jon on Mar 17, 2023 0:42:27 GMT
Seems like an empty threat, the BBC won't cancel the Proms.
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 17, 2023 0:53:52 GMT
Without a full rosta of available musicians, the Proms would be a very different beast.
Given ongoing visa issues for visiting musicians, they are not going to easily replace performers and ensembles this close to the publication of the guide.
On top of the letter from the leaders of UK choral groups, the pressure is rightly mounting
|
|
|
Post by FairyGodmother on Mar 17, 2023 16:57:46 GMT
|
|
2,206 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 17, 2023 19:04:31 GMT
|
|
|
Post by oxfordsimon on Mar 23, 2023 18:43:14 GMT
|
|